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Old 12-27-2013, 08:16 PM   #76
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by KillerMcQueen View Post
I can't help but think he got nominated because he's Batman.
No. He got nominated because he's Ben Affleck, and was in one of the worst recieved movies of the year.

On that criteria alone, he gets a nom.

Doesn't matter if his performance was good (it was) or not.

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Old 12-27-2013, 10:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by BattleAngel View Post
Nonsense. I've said it a zillion times, and people seem to just ignore it...

Bruce Wayne kills a huge number of people in Batman Begins. The "I don't have to save you" logic doesn't hold up when you directly cause the situation from which a person needs saving. In court, Batman would be charged with murduring Ra's, even if it wasn't first degree.

But forget Ra's... He exploads the League of Shadows! He commits arson resulting in the death of untold scores of people- from nameless ninjas to the fake Ra's, to the criminal they asked him to behead (worst of all).

He kills Talia. It may not be murder, but he fires the shots that directly cause her to die from a broken neck.

Batman's kill count in TDKT is probably somewhere between 5 and 50, depending on how many LoS ninjas died in the explosion.

It's possible that this thematic hypocrisy is intentional commentary on how Wayne is capable of justifying things through mental gymnastics, but I think it's more than likely an example of lazy, hollow writing.

Lots to like about TDKT but it is thematically bankrupt, and is less realistic than the 89 Batman by far.
Well not to go down this rabbit hole, but....

You are right that Batman blowing up the LOS temple at the beginning of BB--and I'd also add crashing his Batmobile head on to that first truck in TDK--in reality would have caused deaths. However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over. This is not unlike how Joker--in any medium--can seemingly smuggle explosives or Smilex gas into just about any place without concern be it a hospital, a ferry, a 1989 art museum, or a popular carnival from the mind of Frank Miller. Such logistics will always have to be overlooked.

As for the thematic "bankrupt" nature of TDKT? I will simply say that it is still to date the most intriguing and rich of its genre for conversations and critical thinking.

For example, you say that Batman straight up killed Talia Al Ghul. I would agree and consider it an evolution of his character:

In TDK, he is absolutist in his pathological need to save everyone. To the point where he would rather crash his motorcycle (and possibly kill himself) than stop the Joker from killing innocent civilians with lethal force. He even goes out of his way to save the Joker after throwing him off a skyscraper at the end. But when placed in a no-win scenario, he is forced to choose between saving Jim Gordon's son and stopping Harvey Dent in a process that would directly result in Dent's death. Whether you want to label this as murder or manslaughter, Batman killed Two-Face so Jim Gordon Jr. might live. He broke his one rule and that is why he is willing to create a cover-up for Harvey's crimes, if only to deprive Joker of his victory by stealing a pyrrhic one of his own.

In TDKR, Bruce is forced to confront all of his contradictions when he is left to rot as "a man of privilege" in a hole in the ground while his city burns. His obsession has consumed him to the point where he has no will to live beyond the mask, and he must give up that mask, as well as what some would deem the childish, or rather simplistic notions associated with it. To save Gotham, and just as importantly himself, he must put away his black-and-white worldview and the thought that he can save the world by playing by rules he more or less established for himself when he was in a place inconsolable rage and grief as a young man with a stunted worldview.

This is why he can:

1) Give up being Batman at the end.

2) Let Selina Kyle go, despite her sins.

3) Even appear in daylight at the end of TDKR as both a symbol AND a man, who is clearly flesh and blood in the sun's morning light. A first in the ENTIRE TRILOGY.

He has come out of the proverbial dark night and put away his "tricks and theatricality," as well as his tradition. It is why he also ignore his rules that he once broke for Dent without discrimination when his actions lead to the death of Talia and at least two of her minions (one driving the truck and at least one in a tumbler he leads missiles into). But he has "outgrown" Batman at this point, and has a more nuanced/utilitarian view of what "must be done."

The political implications of this is up to you. However, it is clearly not thematically bankrupt when we can even have this conversation.

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Old 12-27-2013, 10:50 PM   #78
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

^^Wow...great stuff DACrowe.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:53 PM   #79
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Affleck was the best thing about Runner Runner and even then the material given to him was so mediocre.

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Stop all this positive thinking. Only negativity is allowed in here.
When it comes to Superman.....Make mine CAVILL
Dats dat.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:07 PM   #80
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
Well, that's too bad. I bet he's disappointed to be on that list. Oh well. Besides that, his career is on an upswing and I believe he's gonna put in the effort to be a great batman.
I don't think he cares.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:44 PM   #81
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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^^Wow...great stuff DACrowe.
Agreed. It's very refreshing to read that kind of insight on here.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:58 PM   #82
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by marvelboy10 View Post


https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/...25900736_n.jpg

First picture of Ben Affleck in the next Fincher's movie. He really looks like Bruce Wayne.
Someone photoshop that pic so it looks like a Harvey Dent support campaign. There's the poster and the pin!

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Old 12-28-2013, 01:33 AM   #83
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by charl_huntress View Post
^^Wow...great stuff DACrowe.
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Originally Posted by georgec View Post
Agreed. It's very refreshing to read that kind of insight on here.
Thanks very much.

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Old 12-28-2013, 01:35 AM   #84
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
Thanks very much.
Seriously! You pointed out stuff I didn't notice or remember and made me watch the movies again. You started a trilogy-fest...lol.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower! View Post
I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:36 AM   #85
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
Well not to go down this rabbit hole, but....

You are right that Batman blowing up the LOS temple at the beginning of BB--and I'd also add crashing his Batmobile head on to that first truck in TDK--in reality would have caused deaths. However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over. This is not unlike how Joker--in any medium--can seemingly smuggle explosives or Smilex gas into just about any place without concern be it a hospital, a ferry, a 1989 art museum, or a popular carnival from the mind of Frank Miller. Such logistics will always have to be overlooked.

As for the thematic "bankrupt" nature of TDKT? I will simply say that it is still to date the most intriguing and rich of its genre for conversations and critical thinking.

For example, you say that Batman straight up killed Talia Al Ghul. I would agree and consider it an evolution of his character:

In TDK, he is absolutist in his pathological need to save everyone. To the point where he would rather crash his motorcycle (and possibly kill himself) than stop the Joker from killing innocent civilians with lethal force. He even goes out of his way to save the Joker after throwing him off a skyscraper at the end. But when placed in a no-win scenario, he is forced to choose between saving Jim Gordon's son and stopping Harvey Dent in a process that would directly result in Dent's death. Whether you want to label this as murder or manslaughter, Batman killed Two-Face so Jim Gordon Jr. might live. He broke his one rule and that is why he is willing to create a cover-up for Harvey's crimes, if only to deprive Joker of his victory by stealing a pyrrhic one of his own.

In TDKR, Bruce is forced to confront all of his contradictions when he is left to rot as "a man of privilege" in a hole in the ground while his city burns. His obsession has consumed him to the point where he has no will to live beyond the mask, and he must give up that mask, as well as what some would deem the childish, or rather simplistic notions associated with it. To save Gotham, and just as importantly himself, he must put away his black-and-white worldview and the thought that he can save the world by playing by rules he more or less established for himself when he was in a place inconsolable rage and grief as a young man with a stunted worldview.

This is why he can:

1) Give up being Batman at the end.

2) Let Selina Kyle go, despite her sins.

3) Even appear in daylight at the end of TDKR as both a symbol AND a man, who is clearly flesh and blood in the sun's morning light. A first in the ENTIRE TRILOGY.

He has come out of the proverbial dark night and put away his "tricks and theatricality," as well as his tradition. It is why he also ignore his rules that he once broke for Dent without discrimination when his actions lead to the death of Talia and at least two of her minions (one driving the truck and at least one in a tumbler he leads missiles into). But he has "outgrown" Batman at this point, and has a more nuanced/utilitarian view of what "must be done."

The political implications of this is up to you. However, it is clearly not thematically bankrupt when we can even have this conversation.
Brilliantly explained.

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Old 12-28-2013, 01:38 AM   #86
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Now I remembered why I love TDKT so much.

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Stop all this positive thinking. Only negativity is allowed in here.
When it comes to Superman.....Make mine CAVILL
Dats dat.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:52 AM   #87
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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I don't think he cares.

Why? Does being rich and famous mean someone no longer cares about being on the "you suck" list? Especially someone who spent a long time in a career rut?

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:05 AM   #88
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Yes, actually, it does.

He just won an Oscar because his peers think he's awesome at what he does. He's rich, happily married (as far as we can tell), and is a father. He has been hired to play one of his most favorite comic book characters (who also just happens to be one of the most iconic characters in pop culture) and, regardless of whether or not the movie is good or bad, will go down in history as the first Batman to ever share screen time with Superman.

On top of all of that...the guy has been in the business for several years now. I think he knows how to handle criticism.

So no, I don't think he gives a damn what those people have to say about him. I know I wouldn't.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:06 AM   #89
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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However, much like the comics, the explosions and fatalities indirectly caused by Batman in the background are glossed over.
Unless it's Man of Steel begin discussed, in which case the only assumption accepted by Righteous And True Superman Fans Everywhere™ is that Superman clearly and intentionally smashed dozens if not hundreds of civilians into paste every time he blinked.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:10 AM   #90
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

@ BoyScout....I dunno. I think he might care a little bit. Who wants to be told their movie is a stinker? I'm not saying he'd break down and cry or anything. Who knows though. It doesn't change things either way for BvsS, so I reckon it doesn't matter.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:12 AM   #91
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

I just have a hard time believing it. I mean...this is Ben Affleck. I don't think a Razzie nomination is the worst thing that's ever happened to him, professionally speaking.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:13 AM   #92
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Yeah, maybe he's used to it, lol.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:14 AM   #93
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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So no, I don't think he gives a damn what those people have to say about him. I know I wouldn't.
I guarantee you every single time some neckbeardy basement-dweller types "Affleck sucks" the dude spontaneously bursts into laughter. He has nothing to fear from these sad, dumpy failures.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:14 AM   #94
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

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Yeah, maybe he's used to it, lol.
Poor guy. Can't wait to see him in this. It'll be my first time seeing him in anything. Well...I have seen the last half hour or so of Daredevil, but that was so long ago, I barely remember it.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:18 AM   #95
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

I'll admit I haven't liked him in anything besides The Town and Argo. Daredevil was terrible.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:20 AM   #96
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

It'll be interesting. I hadn't seen Cavill in anything before MOS and I haven't seen anything Ben or Gal have been in (and I don't plan to).

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:23 AM   #97
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

It will probably be easier to immerse yourself in the movie like that, so I reckon it's wise to keep things that way. I have preconceptions about Affleck because of his past. But I'm trying to be open-minded.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:24 AM   #98
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Exactly. And I'm sure you'll be able to keep an open mind.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:28 AM   #99
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Well, I'm a lot more open- minded about Affleck than I was when he was first announced. Sometimes I throw little fits about castings/the direction of the movie, but then realize I'm being unfair and get over it.

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Old 12-28-2013, 02:31 AM   #100
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - Part 11

Personally, I just can't summon the effort. I'd rather just see it all play out and make a judgement call then.

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