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Old 01-06-2014, 11:47 PM   #826
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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I could totally see them changing things.

CBMs do it all the time.

Marvel/Sony/Fox/WB. They all do it.

If Kryptonians turned out to be descendents of the Old Gods, would people cry foul that they turned Superman into Wonder Man?
If Superman were to be revealed to be the descendent of "gods" then you bet your sweet bippy I'd be up in arms over the change, not least of which would be because IT WOULD BE TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. Just as trying to turn WW into sci fi is unnecessary.

Once again: The push for a grand unified field theory of superheroes exists in the mind of it's proponents and no where else.

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Old 01-06-2014, 11:51 PM   #827
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I did this litterally in like two seconds so it's not perfect but here goes.
Oh, for this you have time.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:06 AM   #828
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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I could totally see them changing things.

CBMs do it all the time.

Marvel/Sony/Fox/WB. They all do it.

If Kryptonians turned out to be descendents of the Old Gods, would people cry foul that they turned Superman into Wonder Man?
Yes that's the whole point!

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:08 AM   #829
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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Oh, for this you have time.
I can't do it because I can't get to my PC with PS until the weather clears up. Sheesh calm down.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:12 AM   #830
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

...wouldn't all humanoid creatures logically have a shared ancestor/creator? Humans, Gods, Amazons, Kryptonians, etc?

I agree that it's unnecessary to spend story-time on this (unless it's part of the story), but I don't think it really changes anything.

I'm more concerned about them discarding the Gods altogether, or changing the Gods' abilities, etc, rather than the specific ancestry of the Amazons/Gods.


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Old 01-07-2014, 12:14 AM   #831
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I can't do it because I can't get to my PC with PS until the weather clears up. Sheesh calm down.
No! I will haunt you!

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:18 AM   #832
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...wouldn't all humanoid creatures logically have a shared ancestor/creator?
It's a ****ing fantasy movie! Suspension of disbelief is necessary. I wish people would stop trying to over analyze and rationalize things that people can handle not being done so.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:21 AM   #833
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

If it doesn't change anything to change it why change anything in the first place? (No, I am not high... YET.)

I hear this as a defense of the idea often, but it baffles the hell out of me. "It doesn't really change or affect anything. Why are you so against it?" Well if that's the case, why do it at all?

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:22 AM   #834
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It's a ****ing fantasy movie! Suspension of disbelief is necessary. I wish people would stop trying to over analyze and rationalize things that people can handle not being done so.
The numbered jaymes is right!!

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:23 AM   #835
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No! I will haunt you!
Okay...

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:38 AM   #836
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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If its not "true" it's probably not happening.

This need for a unified field theory of superheroes? It exists online in the minds of the posters that WANT IT TO BE SO. Everyone else, the creators, the general audience and the majority of long time fans I'd say could give two airborne copulations. Pardon my French.
Mate, it about thinking like a film maker. It's not about people wanting it to be so, it's about looking at everything with a level head and making a rational decision. Whether the concept happens or not is irrelevant, but you can't sit there and say it's not a possible outcome especially since it makes so much sense within the context of Man of Steel.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:43 AM   #837
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The numbered jaymes is right!!
That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me here.


Which in hindsight is kind of sad.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:48 AM   #838
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If it doesn't change anything to change it why change anything in the first place? (No, I am not high... YET.)

I hear this as a defense of the idea often, but it baffles the hell out of me. ''It doesn't really change or affect anything. Why are you so against it?'' Well if that's the case, why do it at all?
Because it works in context of the Man of Steel world. The issue fans on your side of the fence are overlooking is that this is not a Wonder Woman movie being combined with a Superman one, it's a Man of Steel sequel and Wonder Woman has to fit that world. Whether you like it or not everything that spins off the next film be it Batman or Wonder Woman or Justice League movies are going to have their starting point with Man of Steel 2 and thus are going to have to play by the rules Man of Steel set up, you can't just take the traditional backstory of a different character and expect it to fit, you'll probably more often than not need to make alterations. In other words things have to logically fit. This isn't a Marvel situation whereby it's 4 different films with loose connections coming together for the Avengers, this is an expansion of the same movie series, a direct sequel, and if you add new characters they have to fit in a way that makes sense.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:52 AM   #839
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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Because it works in context of the Man of Steel world. The issue fans on your side of the fence are overlooking is that this is not a Wonder Woman movie being combined with a Superman one, it's a Man of Steel sequel and Wonder Woman has to fit that world. Whether you like it or not everything that spins off the next film be it Batman or Wonder Woman or Justice League movies are going to have their starting point with Man of Steel 2 and thus are going to have to play by the rules Man of Steel set up. In other words they have to logically fit. This isn't a Marvel situation whereby it's 4 different films with loose connections coming together for the Avengers, this is an expansion of the same movie series, a direct sequel, and if you add new characters they have to fit in a way that makes sense.
So any film with Superman in the lead has to directly relate to him?

What you're failing to see is that this is setting up a larger shared universe. This would only cripple the universe by precluding any actual magical references.

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:01 AM   #840
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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Mate, it about thinking like a film maker. It's not about people wanting it to be so, it's about looking at everything with a level head and making a rational decision. Whether the concept happens or not is irrelevant, but you can't sit there and say it's not a possible outcome especially since it makes so much sense within the context of Man of Steel.
Show me the rationality in taking a character that is widely known to be

A. The Princess of the mythological/fantasy Amazons...

B. A Super heroine that uses many a magical object (her most iconic being the "lasso of truth")...

C. A heroine that is known for using terms like "Great Hera" or "Merciful Minerva"....

D. A character described as "Stronger than Hercules/Heracles, swift like Hermes/Mercury, wise as Athena and more beautiful than Aphrodite/Venus herself"....

and try to change her into a sci fi concept? And don't tell me the GA does not know this stuff. What I just listed is probably everything they do know. Why change? Because the audience won't accept magic and science fiction together in a film? I don't even have to list the DECADES worth of film, tv and literature that was successful financially doing exactly that.

Once again... There is not a single thing in MOS' tone that requires WW to be so radically reimagined for the big screen. Nothing. It's tone of versamillitude is not the same as saying "sci fi only, no magic."

I think if WW shows up, does what she always does and when asked to explain how she does it simply give us the standard WW origin, 99.9% of the audience will not bat an eyelash. The push for this Unified Field Theory Of Superheroes for a DCCU is only in the minds of it's proponents. The creators, "the film makers" would seem to not care either. They did not feel the need to justify the total human physical shape of the people of Krypton by giving us a 10 min. primer on co-evolution or the like. Superman is an alien that looks like a human. Boom. Done. Next. Wonder Woman is in no way so different that such an approach is some how the wrong way to do things.

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:15 AM   #841
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

1. I think the argument that future movies have to fit into Man of Steel's "rules" doesn't really make sense. Fictional worlds can become more...outlandish as they go on. Season 1 of LOST didn't have time-travel or ancient-deities for example. Season 1 of Arrow didn't have superpowers.

2. I don't think GAs know that WW is an Amazon or is related to Greek mythology (I know I didn't for the longest time. I think it has to do with the fact that her name gives no indication of her origins). I've most often heard her been referred to as "the female superhero" or "she's like Superman".

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:20 AM   #842
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1.I think the argument that future movies have to fit into Man of Steel's "rules" doesn't really make sense. Fictional worlds can become more...outlandish as they go on. Season 1 of LOST didn't have time-travel or ancient-deities for example. Season 1 of Arrow didn't have superpowers.

2. I don't think GAs know that WW is an Amazon or is related to Greek mythology (I know I didn't for the longest time. I think it has to do with the fact that her name gives no indication of her origins). I've most often heard her been referred to as "the female superhero" or "she's like Superman".
1. Then again: Why do it at all?

2. So strip her of everything that makes her unique because the GA doesn't know about her origins rather than try to educate them about what's in the actual comics?

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:26 AM   #843
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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1. I think the argument that future movies have to fit into Man of Steel's "rules" doesn't really make sense. Fictional worlds can become more...outlandish as they go on. Season 1 of LOST didn't have time-travel or ancient-deities for example. Season 1 of Arrow didn't have superpowers.

2. I don't think GAs know that WW is an Amazon or is related to Greek mythology (I know I didn't for the longest time. I think it has to do with the fact that her name gives no indication of her origins). I've most often heard her been referred to as "the female superhero" or "she's like Superman".
On #1 I agree. On #2? People know WW is an Amazon from Paradise Isle empowered by the Greek gods. It may not be as widely known as Supes/Bats' origins but it is generally known. Not every detail (the clay thing ALWAYS surprises people) but people know she is the Amazon's Princess from a magical island shielded by the powers of the gods. Thank Zod for the Carter show.

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:30 AM   #844
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

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Show me the rationality in taking a character that is widely known to be

A. The Princess of the mythological/fantasy Amazons...

B. A Super heroine that uses many a magical object (her most iconic being the "lasso of truth")...

C. A heroine that is known for using terms like "Great Hera" or "Merciful Minerva"....

D. A character described as "Stronger than Hercules/Heracles, swift like Hermes/Mercury, wise as Athena and more beautiful than Aphrodite/Venus herself"....

and try to change her into a sci fi concept? And don't tell me the GA does not know this stuff. What I just listed is probably everything they do know. Why change? Because the audience won't accept magic and science fiction together in a film? I don't even have to list the DECADES worth of film, tv and literature that was successful financially doing exactly that.

Once again... There is not a single thing in MOS' tone that requires WW to be so radically reimagined for the big screen. Nothing. It's tone of versamillitude is not the same as saying "sci fi only, no magic."

I think if WW shows up, does what she always does and when asked to explain how she does it simply give us the standard WW origin, 99.9% of the audience will not bat an eyelash. The push for this Unified Field Theory Of Superheroes for a DCCU is only in the minds of it's proponents. The creators, "the film makers" would seem to not care either. They did not feel the need to justify the total human physical shape of the people of Krypton by giving us a 10 min. primer on co-evolution or the like. Superman is an alien that looks like a human. Boom. Done. Next. Wonder Woman is in no way so different that such an approach is some how the wrong way to do things.

Widely known? Show me one person outside these forums walls are are even remotely familiar with her backstory. The argument your making is irrelevant because to the masses they really don't know much about WW other than she's strong female superhero with powers similar to Superman and a golden lasso. They don't know jack about the Greek gods, Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, her villains or much else about her mythology. Her back story and mythology is not nearly as well known as Batman or Superman, so don't bull **** to me that any of that information is widely known outside the comic community.

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Old 01-07-2014, 01:43 AM   #845
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Widely known? Show me one person outside these forums walls are are even remotely familiar with her backstory. The argument your making is irrelevant because to the masses they really don't know much about WW other than she's strong female superhero with powers similar to Superman and a golden lasso. They don't know jack about the Greek gods, Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, her villains or much else about her mythology. Her back story and mythology is not nearly as well known as Batman or Superman, so don't bull **** to me that any of that information is widely known outside the comic community.
Lets see... Origin was referenced in the widely known Carter show... Origin was referenced in the widely seen and fondly remembered SUPERFRIENDS show... Origin was referenced in the critically acclaimed JUSTICE LEAGE and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED shows from just a few years back...

People know she is the Princess of the mythological Amazons. Full stop. The nitty gritty details are indeed knownto us super fans... Just as the nitty gritty details of Superman's origin are known to us. But the GA does know the bullet points and have picked up some particular details. WW is no different.

But again the real bone of contention is that the change proponents of this idea want does little to add to the character and does some damage to her standing as her own unique creation. It also sets up an arbitrary rule about magic in the DCCU that hamstrings the very concept of a shared cinematic superhero world.

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Old 01-07-2014, 02:00 AM   #846
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Default Re: Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

Rubbish, I'll show you a person. My wife. She is not not comic book fans and never read the comic but have seen the old TV show and in my wife's case the animated movie (my wife loved it and has seen it at least twice). the basics of her origin are as well known as that of any super hero among the public.

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Widely known? Show me one person outside these forums walls are are even remotely familiar with her backstory. The argument your making is irrelevant because to the masses they really don't know much about WW other than she's strong female superhero with powers similar to Superman and a golden lasso. They don't know jack about the Greek gods, Paradise Island, Steve Trevor, her villains or much else about her mythology. Her back story and mythology is not nearly as well known as Batman or Superman, so don't bull **** to me that any of that information is widely known outside the comic community.

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Old 01-07-2014, 02:38 AM   #847
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Oh what a load of bollocks. Ask random people and see just who knows anything outside the basics of the character. You're both giving the characters' back story GA recognition far more credit than it deserves, in fact it's laughable to suggests it's even in the same ball park of Batman and Superman. Regardless, even if it was as widely known as Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent the alteration of Amazons being of Kryptonian descent isn't going to cause this massive uproar, because the concept makes sense in the context of the MoS sequel , that's what's important and that's what some of you are overlooking. There are too many heads being buried in the comic book sand here trying not to listen to reason, and the fact is there's no guarantee WW will appear in anything other than a Man of Steel or Justice League movie, so her origin accuracy becomes even more irrelevant. The other thing some are doing is calling this a shared universe - this is an expansion of the Superman universe not different worlds being brought together like Marvel. Be honest with yourselves, you don't have to like the idea, but you can't sit there and say it's doesn't work.

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Old 01-07-2014, 02:46 AM   #848
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Oh what a load of bollocks. Ask random people and see just who knows anything outside the basics of the character. You're both giving the characters' back story GA recognition far more credit than it deserves, in fact it's laughable to suggests it's even in the same ball park of Batman and Superman. Regardless, even if it was as widely known as Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent the alteration of Amazons being of Kryptonian descent isn't going to cause this massive uproar, because the concept makes sense in the context of the MoS sequel , that's what's important and that's what some of you are overlooking. There are too many heads being buried in the comic book sand here trying not to listen to reason, and the fact is there's no guarantee WW will appear in anything other than a Man of Steel or Justice League movie, so her origin accuracy becomes even more irrelevant. The other thing some are doing is calling this a shared universe - this is an expansion of the Superman universe not different worlds being brought together like Marvel. Be honest with yourselves, you don't have to like the idea, but you can't sit there and say it's doesn't work.
No. It makes sense to you. It makes no sense to me.

The reason most people don't know her origin is because she hasn't had ten movies like Superman and Batman. If they gave her a chance to stand on her own merits she would do just fine. That is why she needs to have her more classic origin shown her very first film.

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Old 01-07-2014, 02:48 AM   #849
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Oh what a load of bollocks. Ask random people and see just who knows anything outside the basics of the character. You're both giving the characters' back story GA recognition far more credit than it deserves, in fact it's laughable to suggests it's even in the same ball park of Batman and Superman. Regardless, even if it was as widely known as Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent the alteration of Amazons being of Kryptonian descent isn't going to cause this massive uproar, because the concept makes sense in the context of the MoS sequel , that's what's important and that's what some of you are overlooking. There are too many heads being buried in the comic book sand here trying not to listen to reason, and the fact is there's no guarantee WW will appear in anything other than a Man of Steel or Justice League movie, so her origin accuracy becomes even more irrelevant. The other thing some are doing is calling this a shared universe - this is an expansion of the Superman universe not different worlds being brought together like Marvel. Be honest with yourselves, you don't have to like the idea, but you can't sit there and say it's doesn't work.


It doesn't work.

And people know she's the Princess of the Amazons with a magic lasso.

And the audience will accept anything if it looks good and is well done story wise. Nothing in the traditional origin precludes that, does it? And yes, I am aware that reasoning could also apply to a sci fi reimagining. But that it... if good execution is all that matters in the end, why change it all to sci fi? Just do the origin and character well.

And again.... The verisimilitude of MOS in no way shape or form equals some iron clad "no magic, only sci fi" rule.

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Old 01-07-2014, 03:00 AM   #850
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No. It makes sense to you. It makes no sense to me.

The reason most people don't know her origin is because she hasn't had ten movies like Superman and Batman. If they gave her a chance to stand on her own merits she would do just fine. That is why she needs to have her more classic origin shown her very first film.
Dude, this isn't a Wonder Woman movie. Explain to me how it doesn't work. Seriously. Apparently giving the explanation of the Amazons being of Kryptonian descent makes sense to me given it elevates such contradiction as an ancient society having access to high level technology or giving their island the power to become invisible and even the lasso - explain to me why it doesn't work other than saying that it a) fundamentally changes the character b) is not how the comics are. I'm asking specific reasons that it's a fundamentally flawed idea that potentially is detrimental to the film and the character.

__________________
Celebrating 75 years of Batman saving Gotham City.

Fanboys make excuses, real fans acknowledge screw-ups.

Do me a favour - don't break up my posts into multiple quotes when replying, I won't answer back.

Last edited by jmc; 01-07-2014 at 03:03 AM.
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