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Old 01-12-2014, 06:33 PM   #76
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Turns out that you're right about that scene. I stand corrected. So there was some thought behind it. That might be a first for Burton lol.
Given that his bat-suit concept is still canon, it's far from his first.

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Anyways i still think it's a super goofy scene. That's one thing ill always stand by, that the Burton movies and Shumacher's were equally silly. Just one version had a darker/more creative look. But of course it's fun.
How is it goofy?

Goofy is Mr. freeze and his freezing puns and singing Mr. Snow. Goofy is Riddler going "Oh stop." Goofy is Two-Face talking about the doo-dah clueless luck and cackling for no reason. Goofy is that security guard.

How are Burton's movies any close to that?

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Old 01-12-2014, 06:54 PM   #77
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Really? The way the thugs and cops act with their line delivery in Burton's movies are very goofy and hammy. The scene in Returns with that dog, or the penguins running with rockets, Joker dancing to Prince. I shouldn't say the Ray Charles scene is goofy, but the stuff right before it when the thug runs towards Batman by doing flips across the room until Bats knocks him out cold then a dude tries jumping on Batman but doesn't reach him, just falling through the floor. Lmao just thinking of it. All of that stuff is goofy. And i am NOT saying it's bad or it's good.


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Old 01-12-2014, 07:29 PM   #78
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

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Returns has things that are just as silly as Batman and Robin and 89 has things that are just as silly as Forever.

It's more serious, only in comparison to the Adam West version or a Reeve Superman, but it's far from "serious". It's still full of gags, and is still a pretty goofy movie. Tim Burton's Batman is still a great popcorn movie. Yes, it's a popcorn movie, just with a gothic look.

No he doesn't whip out a credit card. And of course he's darker and more serious than Kilmer or Clooney. But there are plenty of scenes that tell the audience that it's practically a dark comedy. Keaton's Wayne in or out of the public is still a quirkball, very awkward and always really funny. With the exception of 1 or 2 scenes that he has with Alfred/Vale. Those are minimal. You can say the same about the couple of scenes Kilmer's Bruce has with Dick/Chase.

The movie knows its genre, and doesn't try to hide from it. The thugs, the cops, they all act hammy and cartoony. Almost every word out of Knox's mouth is a one-liner or bad pick-up line, or a joke about bats. He's their attempt at a comic relief character. Nicholson's Joker is hysterical all the way through, in a very dark way at times. Like i said, the movie is a dark comedy.
Yep,agreed.

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Old 01-12-2014, 07:36 PM   #79
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Returns has things that are just as silly as Batman and Robin.
I actually agree there.

While I really dig Returns and think it's camp was tastefully done (unlike the Schumacher flicks) I think it started the trend of going back to the comedic approach that everyone wanted to move away from, especially with the Penguin, Triangle Circus gang, mayor plot and missile launching penguins gag.

It balanced it out with some drama and tragedy though. It's like a black comedy, especially with the villains. Still, while it's no where near as goofy as say Batman and Robin (which makes light of pretty much everything), I do think it was the one that started going down that path.

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It's more serious, only in comparison to the Adam West version or a Reeve Superman, but it's far from "serious". It's still full of gags, and is still a pretty goofy movie. Tim Burton's Batman is still a great popcorn movie. Yes, it's a popcorn movie, just with a gothic look.
Nah, not seeing it. I'm not really sure what's "goofy" about it. There's some gags, but so what? The Joker is in it with his gimmicks. It's not even on the same level as the others, why? Batman doesn't partake in the shenanigans. The city, the story, Batman, Bruce Wayne, etc. are all taken seriously. As serious as it possibly could get for 1988/1989. Even with the Joker there's still this grimness to it. He kills people in horrible, sadistic ways, but his electrifying personality and showman like charisma that makes it feel light, which is totally appropriate for the character.

Popcorn movie? What does that have to do with camp or "seriousness"? I think Batman '89 had the right amount of "depth" to it for a huge summer block buster. There are a lot of nice, quiet somber scenes amongst the splosions and spectacle that get overlooked, mostly coming from Batman/Bruce himself. For the most part, I think all of the Batman films could be viewed as "popcorn movies" save for Returns and the Dark Knight. They both have some serious undertones going on.

I could definitely argue that TDKR is a pretty brainless popcorn flick after the first 50 mins (pretty much as soon as Batman shows up). The last half of the film is practically destruction porn. Even the dialogue is pretty babified and typical Hollywood.

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No he doesn't whip out a credit card. And of course he's darker and more serious than Kilmer or Clooney. But there are plenty of scenes that tell the audience that it's practically a dark comedy. Keaton's Wayne in or out of the public is still a quirkball, very awkward and always really funny. With the exception of 1 or 2 scenes that he has with Alfred/Vale. Those are minimal.
He's awkward in two scenes, in the armory during the charity ball and to Vicki when he tries to tell him he's Batman, so it's not minimal. The rest of the Bruce/Batman stuff? I don't think there's any thing that goes to Kilmer or Clooney levels. Hell, as much as I love Bale, even his Bruce Wayne playboy goes to silly and funny places.

Keaton Bruce uncomfortable neurtoic rich guy act = Bale Bruce toothy grin, sarcastic/snarky act

As long as the audience understands that the "real" Bruce/Batman is the one Keaton and Bale portrays down in his cave or bunker, brooding, thawing/outwitting criminals, there should be no misinterpretation that the character is "silly".

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You can say the same about the couple of scenes Kilmer's Bruce has with Dick/Chase.
Kilmer's Bruce isn't really goofy at all. Kilmer's Bruce personality is more comparable to Bale if anything. He has a lot of great speeches about pain and vengeance.

Keaton's Bruce? Pretty introverted. He's not nearly as "showy" as the other three. Most of the messages about the character are done in wordless scenes without any exposition like when Vicki is following Wayne to crime alley or "Childhood Remembered". Not a word is spoken but you get the character's pain.

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The movie knows its genre, and doesn't try to hide from it. The thugs, the cops, they all act hammy and cartoony. Almost every word out of Knox's mouth is a one-liner or bad pick-up line, or a joke about bats. He's their attempt at a comic relief character. Nicholson's Joker is hysterical all the way through, in a very dark way at times. Like i said, the movie is a dark comedy.
Every Batman movie has this though? Crappy, themed "action thugs", incompetent/brainless cops, and baaaaaad one liners.



- Batman Returns has more sexual innuendos than any of the Batman films combined. All of the humor is geared towards adults, none of it is something a kid would understand. The citizens are obnoxiously stupid. Can't forget "eat floor, high fiber" or killer poodles.

- Forever is chalk full of hammy villains. Everything they say is comic relief and they just don't have the nads that Nicholson did to pull off "fun but sinister". Cringe worthy dialogue like, "black rubber", "chicks dig the car", etc.

- B&R has ice puns galore. Nothing the villains say is ever serious, not even when Freeze is lamenting over his wife. Every scene except the ones involving the "Alfred is sick" subplot is a literal joke, never taking itself seriously.

- Batman Begins has the worst acting cops . . . EVER. Nuff said. After Batman's introduction we get, "nice coat". Alfred provides the comic relief, Jim Gordon tries to get the kiddies to buy a Mattel Batmobile, etc. The last half is literally a cliched comic book movie.

- The Dark Knight is my favorite Batman film but, as good as it is it doesn't even get away with those sins. The mob is stereotypical, every cop/citizen that isn't a main character is a dolt, and who can forget about the poultry one liners from the "I DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR THIS" SWAT cop?

- TDKR has not so subtle anti-wealth dialogue that is exaggerated. We got annoying comedic relief cops saying "sorry". Dagget and Foley who are more like cliched caricatures than actual characters. Catwoman/Selina spewing one liner crap like "cat got your tongue" left and right (which I don't mind really, but does bother other people). Even Batman himself "gets" how absurd this whole thing is by sort of breaking the 4th wall when he gets a taste of his own medicine with the "so that's what that feels like line". Even things that are meant to be 100% serious like Batman and Bane come off as preposterous.




Still doesn't change each film's tone. I hate TDKR with a seething passion, but even with all of it's lameness I'd never try and claim it as having the same goals or tone as freakin' Batman and Robin, which is clearly meant to be a joke. Nolan and Co. were trying to make a serious movie with serious characters whereas Schumacher and Co. were making flashy, toy commercials.



Batman 1989 has none of those bad vibes, even if Robert Whul gets underneath someone's skin. What the filmmakers were going for in 1989 is the exact opposite of what was going on in 1995 and 1997. All 7 Batman films are on certain points of a wide spectrum.


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Old 01-12-2014, 09:40 PM   #80
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

It's pretty simple. Burton's version is more stylized than Nolan's. Both Burton and Schumacher's versions were highly stylized, though Schumacher's was more on the "light" silver age side of things and Burton's was on the gothic, 1940s noir side of things. Nolan's version is more like a 'regular' action movie that just so happens to be about Batman. This is neither good nor bad, it's purely subjective which approach one likes more.

Even with all the B movie tropes present in the Nolan films, the overall tone still conveys something much different than what we got in the 80s and 90s. I don't care how you want to break it down, the feeling of watching a Burton Batman movie evokes something different than the feeling of watching a Nolan Batman movie. Even down to the scores. I adore Elfman's Batman scores, but they're very cartoony, particularly when it comes to scoring the action. Again, this is neither a good thing or a bad thing. We're lucky as fans to have been blessed with two very different, but very cool cinematic incarnations.

The important thing to remember is that although we can look back on certain elements of the Burton films now and call them out for campiness, at the time it was a HUGE step forward in the evolution of the character's perception in the public consciousness and went a long way in getting rid of the "POW" "WHAM" association. In fact, Nolan himself said that it was Burton's first film that established the idea that you could make a "cool" Batman movie, which opened the door for him to make his own. There's really no need at all for the films to be pitted against one another, but I guess it's always gonna happen, just like Batfleck will be compared to Bale/Nolan.

At the end of the day, all of these movies have to be PG-13 and are designed to sell lots of tickets. All of them have some adult themes mixed in with big action beats and an operatic story and basic ideas that a younger audience can latch onto. But there is still a difference in tone. Each Batman movie is going for something different.


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He's the most serious and darkest of the bunch. He doesn't say "I'll get drive thru" or whip out bat-credit cards. He doesn't quip, refer to himself as "Wayne's powerful friend" and he doesn't talk to himself in an hysterical over the top voice.
The way you're describing it you're making it sound like Keaton in 89 is pure stoic, but not really. "You weigh a little more than 108". "You wanna get nuts?!", "Alfred it's time to go shopping" etc. Keaton's Bruce/Batman still had a sense of humor and some quirkiness to him, because that's Keaton and he did bring some of himself to the role. I agree that he was a very dark and mysterioso Batman for the most part, but he still had his moments of levity, even if it was more on the dark humor side.

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Old 01-12-2014, 09:52 PM   #81
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The score is cartoony?


Maybe the score should be more realistic, broooo.

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Old 01-12-2014, 10:11 PM   #82
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It's pretty simple. Burton's version is more stylized than Nolan's. Both Burton and Schumacher's versions were highly stylized, though Schumacher's was more on the "light" silver age side of things and Burton's was on the gothic, 1940s noir side of things. Nolan's version is more like a 'regular' action movie that just so happens to be about Batman. This is neither good nor bad, it's purely subjective which approach one likes more.

Even with all the B movie tropes present in the Nolan films, the overall tone still conveys something much different than what we got in the 80s and 90s. I don't care how you want to break it down, the feeling of watching a Burton Batman movie evokes something different than the feeling of watching a Nolan Batman movie. Even down to the scores. I adore Elfman's Batman scores, but they're very cartoony, particularly when it comes to scoring the action. Again, this is neither a good thing or a bad thing. We're lucky as fans to have been blessed with two very different, but very cool cinematic incarnations.

The important thing to remember is that although we can look back on certain elements of the Burton films now and call them out for campiness, at the time it was a HUGE step forward in the evolution of the character's perception in the public consciousness and went a long way in getting rid of the "POW" "WHAM" association. In fact, Nolan himself said that it was Burton's first film that established the idea that you could make a "cool" Batman movie, which opened the door for him to make his own. There's really no need at all for the films to be pitted against one another, but I guess it's always gonna happen, just like Batfleck will be compared to Bale/Nolan.

At the end of the day, all of these movies have to be PG-13 and are designed to sell lots of tickets. All of them have some adult themes mixed in with big action beats and an operatic story and basic ideas that a younger audience can latch onto. But there is still a difference in tone. Each Batman movie is going for something different.

Agree with all that, especially the idea that each film is a different flavor for the audiences. Good post.

The only thing I don't agree with is that the scores in the first two films are "cartoony". Maybe a few of the themes like the Joker's or some of the quirkiness in Returns, but they're all pretty grandiose and cinematic for the most part. The main theme, descent into mystery, childhood remembered? Pretty compelling stuff. Same goes for the themes in Batman: The Animated Series and Mask of the Phantasm by Shirley Walker.






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The way you're describing it you're making it sound like Keaton in 89 is pure stoic, but not really. "You weigh a little more than 108". "You wanna get nuts?!", "Alfred it's time to go shopping" etc. Keaton's Bruce/Batman still had a sense of humor and some quirkiness to him, because that's Keaton and he did bring some of himself to the role. I agree that he was a very dark and mysterioso Batman for the most part, but he still had his moments of levity, even if it was more on the dark humor side.
I meant Batman.

I'll give you "you weigh a little more than 108", but you gotta admit that's pretty low key and subtle, hardly on the level of the ones I listed. The reason he says that is because she lied about it which caused their overall weight to exceed the limit and short out the grapple mechanism in his belt (which I always thought was clever myself). Even then, that's nothing compared to the likes of Bale or worse offenders like Kilmer and Clooney. This Batman barely said a word. Look no further than the descent into mystery scene where he is COMPLETELY stoic inside the Batmobile not uttering a single word. I don't think a single live action Batman has ever done something that "Batmany". The way he shines the light in her eyes when she's trying to get a better look at him is so simple yet so brilliant in defining the type of character he is.

Of course, if we bring Returns into the argument and not just '89, we do have "high fiber" but tonally, Returns is like a completely different film. I never quite understood that awful quip myself especially when Batman has appeared to have gotten darker. Then again, maybe Catwoman makes him say and do strange things.


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Old 01-12-2014, 10:32 PM   #83
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Agree with all that, especially the idea that each film is a different flavor for the audiences. Good post.

The only thing I don't agree with is that the scores in the first two films are "cartoony". Maybe a few of the themes like the Joker's or some of the quirkiness in Returns, but they're all pretty grandiose and cinematic for the most part. The main theme, descent into mystery, childhood remembered? Pretty compelling stuff. Same goes for the themes in Batman: The Animated Series and Mask of the Phantasm by Shirley Walker.
Thanks.

Also- I should clarify that I'm really talking about action beats moreso than the big themes. The main theme, Descent Into Mystery, Childhood Remembered are dark and operatic. Same with some of his really haunting themes for Selina and Penguin in Returns.

But then you have stuff like:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


And again, I think Elfman is a genius and these types of cues are awesome and take talent to pull off, but it's got that "dark Looney Tunes" vibe that a lot of his scores do. I actually think Shirley Walker's cues were less "childlike", if that makes sense, which is ironic considering hers were for an actual cartoon.

Also, good call about Catwoman making Bats act a little batty.

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Old 01-12-2014, 10:58 PM   #84
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That rooftop fight track is a bit cartoony I'll give you that, especially when Batman unfolds the batarang. It's worth noting though that a lot of the parts in that track are not in the actual film, especially that little jingle at around 0:40 mark, that's not in there at all. To be fair, it does change a bit too. At first it starts out weird and unusual, like when the two muggers look up and see Batman with his "wings" unfurled. I guess that's what we could say is "cartoony". Then once Batman grabs up that one and throttles him over the ledge the theme sets and the track is completely different.

It all goes back to tone. Our hero isn't quipping here or saying, "hi bro, I'm Batman" as he's bobbing his head. He's holding this guy over the ledge and reassuring him that he isn't going to kill him. That's why it's odd for me to see folks say, "this is all just as silly as *insert Batman/Batman movie here*", it's not.

As for Walker, her and Elfman combined is like the epitome of what Batman should sound like to me. I love pretty much all of scores (and the ones that she didn't do, there were 6-7 other collaborators). Even "cartoony" themes like "The Joker's favor" and "Last Laugh" are some of my favorites and the tone is hardly "dark and brooding". I love them all.


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Old 01-12-2014, 11:38 PM   #85
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Oh yeah, look I love Elfman and Walker too. Maybe it sounded like a criticism when I said "cartoony", perhaps a better word would have been whimsical. There's a dark whimsy that Burton and Elfman tend to bring to things and it sets the tone for the world you're in. It's obviously not an outright parody ala the 60s show or B&R, but it's embracing the comic bookiness and pulpiness of the material.

I don't want to turn this into a Zimmer vs Elfman/Walker argument because I truly love all of it and I get really sick of those debates, but I'll just say that music is such a huge factor when it comes to setting the appropriate tone for different versions Batman both on the small screen and big screen. You couldn't just plop the Elfman theme in a Nolan film or vice versa. Sure, it's fun to watch fan trailers where they do stuff like that, but it wouldn't be sustainable for a whole movie.

To me, all the cinematic Batmen are almost defined by the music more than anything else. Maybe that's just because of my musical background- I honestly attribute Elfman's theme as one of the major reasons I even became a Batman fan in the first place...it made such an impression on me as a kid to the point where I wanted to take piano lessons just so I could play the theme. So I might be biased there, but to me it all starts with the music. That's the first way I get drawn into whichever Gotham is being depicted.

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Old 01-13-2014, 12:34 AM   #86
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Again, I agree with all that.

Those fan trailers are cringe worthy to watch most of the time because there are very few cases where the swapped tracks work. I wholeheartedly agree that Elfman's/Walker's fit the first two Batman films and Animated series with it's dark and heroic Bernard Herrmannesque themes. Goldenthal's fits the Schumacher movies with this upbeat and adventurous theme, like something a young person would enthusiastically hum as they would play out their favorite scenes. Zimmer/Howard's fits the Nolan movies with basses and cellos that create an electric melodrama, like a great soundtrack from the 90s.

The only one I've seen "work" (one that I liked) was this,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3aKtvQlIM


but even then, hearing them mixed with different films just doesn't "feel" right.

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Old 01-13-2014, 12:38 PM   #87
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Really? The way the thugs and cops act with their line delivery in Burton's movies are very goofy and hammy. The scene in Returns with that dog, or the penguins running with rockets, Joker dancing to Prince.
So you mention like everything BUT the scene we're discussing. And here I was telling you THAT scene was not goofy.

That said, Joker gets a pass every time. He sang and danced in The Killing Joke, and when he did in B89 it was either surrounded by corpses or about to kill hundreds.

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I shouldn't say the Ray Charles scene is goofy, but the stuff right before it when the thug runs towards Batman by doing flips across the room until Bats knocks him out cold then a dude tries jumping on Batman but doesn't reach him, just falling through the floor. Lmao just thinking of it. All of that stuff is goofy. And i am NOT saying it's bad or it's good.
So humor is automatically goofy?

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Old 01-13-2014, 01:24 PM   #88
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So you mention like everything BUT the scene we're discussing. And here I was telling you THAT scene was not goofy.

That said, Joker gets a pass every time. He sang and danced in The Killing Joke, and when he did in B89 it was either surrounded by corpses or about to kill hundreds.



So humor is automatically goofy?
Sorry but i had to watch the scene on youtube because i never remember the exact details from the scenes of those movies. I still think Ray Charles looks funny so the fact that a dude like that is kicking Batman's ass, sure that makes me laugh. But in watching it over, i realized it wasn't the action between the two that was goofy. It isn't. It's the stuff leading right into it.

There's different kinds of humor. Very different. There's cartoony humor which is goofy, like presented in Burton's movies. If you don't think those moments that i listed are "goofy" (whether you like them or not is irrelevant) then i dont really have anything more to add in our conversation, because obviously we wont be seeing eye to eye on the matter.

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Old 01-13-2014, 04:28 PM   #89
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Sorry but i had to watch the scene on youtube because i never remember the exact details from the scenes of those movies. I still think Ray Charles looks funny so the fact that a dude like that is kicking Batman's ass, sure that makes me laugh. But in watching it over, i realized it wasn't the action between the two that was goofy. It isn't. It's the stuff leading right into it.
The man is in black leather jacket and black glasses. What's the goofiness in that?

And the batwing's crash, the ascension. Other than a couple of Gordon's lines, I don't see anything goofy about it.

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There's different kinds of humor. Very different. There's cartoony humor which is goofy, like presented in Burton's movies. If you don't think those moments that i listed are "goofy" (whether you like them or not is irrelevant) then i dont really have anything more to add in our conversation, because obviously we wont be seeing eye to eye on the matter.
Well, the thread is about a scene. You've tried to cram in anything to make a case of goofiness here. At least in the scene, there's none.

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Old 01-13-2014, 04:30 PM   #90
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Didn't i just write how i revisted the scene on youtube and said i was wrong...? Reading can do wonders you know.

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Old 01-13-2014, 04:41 PM   #91
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I love the Miller-esque gallows humor that colours pretty much all of the fight scenes.

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Old 01-15-2014, 08:14 PM   #92
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The far away shot where the henchman is swinging the chain and Batman dodges it several times in a row is sweet. The guy was just physically stronger than Batman, and as mentioned, he was already weakened. But he was still using his head, he knew he couldn't get in close. He was on the defensive. Awesome stuff. Plus the fact that it is his first physical challenge in the whole movie.

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Old 01-15-2014, 08:33 PM   #93
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I wonder what attack Batman was planning when he leaped off the bell at Ray Charles?

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Old 01-31-2014, 01:41 PM   #94
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Yeah I don't know, I've wondered that myself, I don't think Batman intended to get tossed into the steps at all lol

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Old 01-31-2014, 04:32 PM   #95
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It was all part of the plan. Batman has everything under control!

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Old 01-31-2014, 05:27 PM   #96
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So strange, he never attacks bad guys from above.

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Old 02-03-2014, 03:57 AM   #97
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I wonder what attack Batman was planning when he leaped off the bell at Ray Charles?
I think he was just hoping to crush him with his 70 pound costume.

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Old 02-03-2014, 04:25 AM   #98
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I think he was just hoping to crush him with his 70 pound costume.
Maybe he was trying to erase him with his rubber costume?

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Old 02-04-2014, 08:21 PM   #99
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I think he was just hoping to crush him with his 70 pound costume.
Hehehe yeah. He didn't seem to have any manoeuvre planned, just the jump. Maybe he intended to jump over him and attack from behind...but was instead caught and thrown into steps.

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Old 02-04-2014, 08:24 PM   #100
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Where is this posted?

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