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Old 12-30-2013, 02:01 PM   #201
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

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Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan View Post
Just because Nicholson got top billing and one hell of a contract certainly doesn't mean he ''upstaged'' Keaton. Commercially perhaps, but not creatively.
Creatively too. He dominated the entire movie. The story was basically about the Joker.

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How exactly do you want Keaton to steal the show against an A-list actor playing one of the most flamboyant roles of his entire career? There was equal praise given to both actors and if anything Keaton was referred to as the greater revelation. The movie needed that ying and yang to work.
Keaton was a revelation in that people were wrong when they thought he couldn't play Batman. Remember the thousands of protest letters WB got against his casting?

But creatively he was still upstaged by Nicholson's Joker. Like Bale was with Ledger's Joker but for different reasons. Ledger's Joker had less screen time than Bale, Eckhart and Oldman. It was his powerhouse performance that chewed up the scenery of the movie. He did it through performance, not screen time and story domination. Like Anthony Hopkins did in The Silence of the Lambs. Lecter is easily the most memorable component of that movie, and he only has about 20 something minutes screen time, and most of it is just him sat in a cell talking.

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Plus, every live-action Batman actor has been upstaged by thier villians... that's what happens when you are playing the straight guy or brooding loner in a rubber suit.
So you're admitting he was upstaged.

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The only time an actor outshone his fellow villianous actors was Christian Bale in Batman Begins... and THAT was only because the villians in that movie were mundane as sin.
No, not mundane, just not as flamboyant and colorful as the others, and used much less sparingly. Ra's is missing for the whole middle section of Begins for example

Just like in MOTP. Joker is used very sparingly. He doesn't even appear until half way through the movie.

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:19 PM   #202
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

You know what... if you are not going to read my other post prior to yours then I'm not getting into this debate.

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Old 12-30-2013, 03:45 PM   #203
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Things with Joker are like that. You cannot be in the same movie and not get overshadowed.

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Old 12-30-2013, 03:59 PM   #204
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

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You can only be truly ''upstaged'' if you are in direct competition with another actor. Tommy Lee Jones was certainly upstaged by Jim Carrey, for e.g.
I disagree with that. If you're the lead of something, you're meant to be carrying the show. That's why the Hugh Jackman's and RDJ's of the world are constantly headlining films: they have enough charisma to hold the audience's attention as the lead.

But if a supporting character is showing more charisma and magnetism than the lead, the lead can definitely be "upstaged". And even a story sense, like Joker said. I don't necessarily agree, but an argument can be made that B89's story centers around Joker just as much, if not more than Batman, the title character.

IMO, the reason Batman keeps getting "upstaged" is not because of Batman, but because of how the actors/directors are choosing to portray Batman. To bring it back to MOTP, Conroy's Batman is portrayed in a different manner compared to the live action films. First, as many have said, the scenery chewing bad guy isn't at the center of the film. Second, even if Joker got more screentime, Conroy's Batman is just as much a force of nature as Hamil's Joker is. Conroy could hold his own.

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Old 12-30-2013, 04:55 PM   #205
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I think we all know that Burton wanted the movie to keep Batman as mysterious as possible (which is why we don't get his origin until the last act).

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Old 12-31-2013, 12:25 AM   #206
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

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I think we all know that Burton wanted the movie to keep Batman as mysterious as possible (which is why we don't get his origin until the last act).
I really appreciate how Tim and Sam decided to unfold the story like that. It was brilliant for the time considering only real Batman fans even knew Batman's origin. A fleeting mention of his parents' murder in a couple episodes of the '60s series do not an awareness make. Burton and Hamm constructed the film as an overall learning experience for the public-at-large and as such, the audience learns Batman's origin alongside Vicki Vale; she's the identifying element for the audience and the middle-ground between two extreme figures.

It makes the film feel more thoughtfully executed and filmic. I think the worst thing a comic book film can do is assume its audience 'gets' its universe when the general populace doesn't (because they don't read comics). There are some exceptions--Superman could get away with it and now Batman could, obviously. The Amazing Spider-Man didn't have to cover the origin in exacting detail because Sam's first film hit so big.

BATMAN was special because it had to reestablish the universe of Batman for all of the uninitiated, whose knowledge of Bats went as far as what an episode of the '60s series might inform. It's a perfect introduction, in my eyes, for those new to Batman's world and overall vibe.

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Old 12-31-2013, 02:25 AM   #207
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No problem from my side with the idea of having Batman as a secondary character. But the thing is that, after the beginning, for example, Alexander Knox (who is pretty much the only likeable character in the movie) gets shoved aside and there is no clear focus anymore. We do not know anything about Batman. He's almost as mysterious in the end as he is in the beginning. It ping-pongs between Joker, Vicki Vale, with the later almost hardly defined. There is no real plot, the Joker doesn't really have a motiviation at all.

In Batman Returns it's even worse.

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:47 AM   #208
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Greatest batman movie, i would love to see a full movie who is more than just 1 hour and 10 minutes. If they can make live action movies great and they have more than 2 hours length, so can a animation movie.

I hope for a blu ray release, so i can watch it again and listen to the wonderfull soundtrack composed by Shirley Walker.

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Old 12-31-2013, 08:28 AM   #209
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I saw this movie in theaters when i was 12 2 times and me and my family loved it! it became my most favorite animated movie since.

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Old 12-31-2013, 09:56 AM   #210
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

Batman: Mask of the Phantasm TV Spots and Happy Meal advertisement:

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Such a great movie. It deserved more effective promotion and a better release date. Any Disney movie probably would have ate it up in the summer but it would still have gotten more recognition (and possibly more money).

Also, Conroy's delivery of ''They're ours now!'' in the McDonalds commercial was pretty creepy.

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:25 AM   #211
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

I still feel cheated that I didn't get to see this on this big screen. I bet if they re-released it now they'd make more money than they did in 93. Maybe.

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:39 AM   #212
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

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No problem from my side with the idea of having Batman as a secondary character. But the thing is that, after the beginning, for example, Alexander Knox (who is pretty much the only likeable character in the movie) gets shoved aside and there is no clear focus anymore. We do not know anything about Batman. He's almost as mysterious in the end as he is in the beginning. It ping-pongs between Joker, Vicki Vale, with the later almost hardly defined. There is no real plot, the Joker doesn't really have a motiviation at all.

In Batman Returns it's even worse.
So when you find out what made Bruce Wayne being so mysterious, why he can't just establish normal ties with people, and what made him dress as a dark figure and avenge his parents... when you got the Waynes's killing scene... you just skipped that.

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Old 01-09-2014, 12:33 PM   #213
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

As much as I adored the series as kid I somehow never knew this movie exited until around the time BB came out.

Before I picked it up I would read the occasional "Mask of the Phantasm" is the BEST Batman movie ever" threads or comments and I would dismiss them as ultra fanboys being contrary for the sake of it.

Then I finally watched it for the first time and I realized why people think it's the best, because it's a damn good contender.

While I still love BB and Batman Returns more, MOTP is something of a marvel. It's a short film but tells an emotional, complex, and satisfying story better than pretty much all of the other Batman films, and other superhero films in general. It's such a concise, tightly written film. It's a great Batman origin retelling, a good love story, a good Joker story and a good story about an all new villain. It also has a more well thought out and compelling female character and love interest than any other Batman movie, which is sad when you think about it.

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Old 01-11-2014, 07:34 PM   #214
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

Sadly, this is the most underrated big screen Batman film ever.

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Old 01-11-2014, 10:53 PM   #215
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Sadly, this is the most underrated big screen Batman film ever.
Not among fans.

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Old 01-12-2014, 08:11 AM   #216
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

I was listening to the Now Playing Podcast and they tore this film to shreds, don't know what they were watching but it can't have been this.

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Old 01-14-2014, 05:42 AM   #217
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

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Sadly, this is the most underrated big screen Batman film ever.
Yeah I love this Batman film. One of the best. I wish for a Blu-ray version.

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Old 01-14-2014, 06:41 AM   #218
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

I am truly surprised WB hasn't cashed in and put forth an effort to put this on blu-ray it's still not that old and I'm sure the print would clean up very nicely and easily not a lot of effort on their part. I hate to say this but maybe the lackluster home video sales? I would hate to hear that being the case.

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Old 01-14-2014, 08:10 AM   #219
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

What?

This film was a huge success on home video. WB just don't seem to be willing for financial reasons, plus Bruce Timm isn't a huge fan of the idea either.

But Batman: The Brave and the Bold has apparently been selling quite well through Warner Archive, so who knows what that could lead to.

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Old 01-15-2014, 02:05 AM   #220
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The scene with the dead guy and the newspaper is still freaky...

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Old 01-16-2014, 11:30 PM   #221
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I still feel cheated that I didn't get to see this on this big screen. I bet if they re-released it now they'd make more money than they did in 93. Maybe.
On little forms in school that would ask things like "What's your biggest regret?" or "If you could do one thing over in your life?" I put my biggest regret as not having seen Mask of the Phantasm in theaters. If anyone wanted to get me a really great birthday present it would be to rent out a theater so we could watch this.

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Old 01-17-2014, 12:08 PM   #222
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I remember I made Honor Roll at the time of it's release in the theaters. My Dad was going to reward me by taking me to go see it. The theater we were planning on watching it at even showed movies for free. Sadly for some reason it never came through, but me, my brother, and Dad caught it the day it was released on VHS. Boy was that an exciting evening. I remember racing to get my homework done so we could all watch it that day. I obviously enjoyed it, but so did my Dad and brother as well.

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Old 03-17-2014, 12:33 PM   #223
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Old 03-17-2014, 12:54 PM   #224
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I love the part where Bruce meets Andrea for the first time. For a moment he's happy, but then it starts to rain. He can't escape his destiny

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Old 03-17-2014, 04:01 PM   #225
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Default Re: Mask Of The Phantasm Appreciation Thread

The Joker's laugh after he stabs Arthur is so chilling, especially when it changes in timbre. I think it is Hamill's best Joker laugh.

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