The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Superman > Man of Steel

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-24-2014, 05:59 AM   #26
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,172
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
Oh lord... This won't end well.

I LOVE both. S:TM is no more "a camp Schumacher fever dream" any more than MOS was a "pretentious film afraid of it's comic book roots" (Really?)

Both are, to my eyes, GREAT feature film adaptations of a Pop Culture icon done with great care and attention. Quite frankly, both are great bookends that encompass much of the grandeur, coolness and fun of Superman. I saw Chris Reeve in 1978 when I was 2 yrs old and this summer I paid to see Henry Cavil as Superman 6 times in the theater. Both work big time for me.
Dude, that's exactly the kind of response I was interested in hearing - besides, there hasn't been a comparison thread between SMTM and MOS for a while.
Enjoying MOS doesn't mean that anyone has to turn their back on SMTM, to be honest I think they are just reflections of the times they were made in. I was hoping to hear from folks who hold both films in equal regard, just as much as those who have a clear preference, so thanks for posting.

Interestingly, Brandon Routh was cast because he looks like Chris Reeve (RIP) whereas Henry Cavill was cast because he looks like Superman. Sorry, that's just an aside.

BTW who called SMTM a "camp Schumacher fever dream" ? BAck in the late 70's Schumacher was writing screenplays. If anything, Schumacher's Batman work is a campier, less tasteful, visually irksome and poorly cast mockery of one of Richard Donner's acid trips. (Although Schumacher has done some really fun stuff, the Lost Boys is still a hilarious vampire movie
probably the only horror/comedy worth watching).

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 06:52 AM   #27
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Dude, that's exactly the kind of response I was interested in hearing - besides, there hasn't been a comparison thread between SMTM and MOS for a while.
Enjoying MOS doesn't mean that anyone has to turn their back on SMTM, to be honest I think they are just reflections of the times they were made in. I was hoping to hear from folks who hold both films in equal regard, just as much as those who have a clear preference, so thanks for posting.

Interestingly, Brandon Routh was cast because he looks like Chris Reeve (RIP) whereas Henry Cavill was cast because he looks like Superman. Sorry, that's just an aside.

BTW who called SMTM a "camp Schumacher fever dream" ? BAck in the late 70's Schumacher was writing screenplays. If anything, Schumacher's Batman work is a campier, less tasteful, visually irksome and poorly cast mockery of one of Richard Donner's acid trips. (Although Schumacher has done some really fun stuff, the Lost Boys is still a hilarious vampire movie
probably the only horror/comedy worth watching).
If you wanted someone to show BOTH films respect, then I am your man.

I used "Schumacher fever dream" as a shorthand for the way some, especially younger views feel about S:TM. It seems that the "camp humor" in the film overshadows the fact that Donner and Co.'s attempt at verisimilitude were a totally new angle for the material at the time, and it's his work that is most often cited by the CBM directors of today as the most influential. Yes it has some, repeat, some humor that can now come off a little cornball, but I think most things, hell even 95% of the SFX are as good as anything of it's time or even today. I was wondering if what I was going to get with MOS would stand up in my estimation to SUPERMAN '78. And it didn't, because it was a very different film for a different time. It was NOT trying to be Donner/Reeve for the 21st Century and yet all the same, it worked for me. The action, the drama, the wit (yep, there was humor) all done with crackerjack execution. I walked out with my jaw on the floor. So people, it is possible to love em' both. Now I wanna know what Snyder and Co. are gonna give me by throwing The Caped Crusader and The Amazon Warrior Princess into the mix.

__________________
My father. 1946-2014

He truly proved that every person has the potential to be a force for good in this life. So anyone that reads this, do me a favor... Call your parents.
KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 03:27 PM   #28
The Batman
The Dark Knight
 
The Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 20,495
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visualiza View Post
Missing the point. Movies, just like any other form of art, are to be judged on both objective and subjective terms. Personal preference isn't the quintessential criteria for whether or not a movie is good or bad. Of course it can't be narrowed down in a factual sense, but one can still exercise their better judgment as well as their own preferences.

I'll say one thing, the propensity of this fan community to immediately assert their favorite whatever as being synonymous with quality is reaching new levels of absurdity. The folks who freely talked about their guilty pleasures...those are the ones I miss. I have a lot more respect for someone who can admit that they enjoyed something in spite of its flaws than I do the zealous fanatic who takes a bizarre sense of pride and ownership in the things that they like.

This sort of thing makes me wonder if people have this same mentality about the food they eat. If a hot dog is someone's favorite thing to eat, do they also swear up and down that it's the best food the world has ever seen? It may taste good (akin to how a film like MoS is enjoyable), it may satisfy a craving (akin to how MoS is "the Superman movie I've always been waiting for!!!"), but none of that stuff makes it good, nor should supersede the myriad of other important standards by which food (movies) should be judged.

Personally, I feel that the MoS fanbase by and large falls into this "I like it, therefore it's the best" group, and a huge part of it is based upon their analyses of the movie as well as their knee-jerk reactions to criticism. Stuff like "This is Superman for the 21st century" isn't exactly what I'd call legitimate praise; that sort of commentary is far too vague and trite to be taken seriously. On the other hand, I've found the criticisms of the film to be far more lucid and reasonable than the praise, but even in this case, many of the more defensive fans take certain criticisms so far out of context to the point of being unrecognizable, and then they "rebut" them as such. A perfect example is this fallacy about MoS not being like the Donner films. Write this down and take it to the bank, but not one critic has ever said that MoS is a failure for not being like SM '78, not even implicitly; this one of several falsehoods that indignant fans have convinced themselves of. On the other hand, what has indeed happened is that some critics have compared and contrasted the two, since they...you know...feature the same protagonist to illustrate certain points. We don't live in a vacuum, folks; favorable and unfavorable comparisons between the two are inevitable, as well as being fair game. What's hypocritical is that the defenders cry foul whenever MoS is compared unfavorably to S:TM, but they're just as quick to wax poetically about how superior an adaptation this movie is to its predecessors. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
Best post in the thread.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hafizbat View Post
Welcome to the Batman v Superman forums, where people will take a perfectly reasonable comment you make and twist it into something completely different to make themselves feel better.
The Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 04:38 PM   #29
Lord
All Mighty
 
Lord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,197
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluearth View Post
So the fan community is the only people guilty of this? Yeah right. Ask any critic and they'll tell you Gravity and All is Lost are two of the best films of the year, even though both are void of story and offer little more then decent acting and special effects. They obviously talk up the positives of their favorites while downplaying or outright ignoring the negatives, so why cant fans of Man of Steel? Or are only critics allowed to get away with it?
Never watched All is Lost, but i can talk with you about Gravity, it was not void of story, it did what it was supposed to do and told the story in a "realistic" way, not every film has to be told in the same way, Unfortunatelly The Man of Steel failed at the way it was telling the story, while Gravity gave us something we had not seen before with a lot of intricate film techniques and a brand new experience.

Quote:
How does none of that make it good? Man of Steel finally gives us the top end action the character is capable of and we've always waited for, yet that shouldnt be seen as a positive? What should be then? The story? It has a better story then critical darlings like All is Lost and Gravity. Acting? Kevin Costner, Laurence Fishburn, Russel Crowe werent any good? Character development? Again I recall very minimal if any development in Gravity and All is Lost. So just where exactly does Man of Steel fall so short?
Better story? It was longer, but it was not better told at all, character development? Gravity was about the journey, and the little that was shown of the characters was relativelly well done and realistic (not a fan of that word, but in this case i fits). Criticism that may apply to a certain film may not apply to another by the way, it all comes down to how it is constructed, The Man of Steel is supposed to be the origin of a superhero and an alien invasion, while Gravity is about a person in a terrible situation, in an alien environment to us that was delivered in an original and ambitious way that we haven't seen much.

Look at stuff like Star Wars in the 70s, it was a simple story in a time full of films with a more complex storyline, yet it was nominated for Best film, and deservedly so, because it was something new, done in an interesting way, same as Raiders of the Lost Ark, and they were executed flawlessly. Nowadays this type of film is the bread and butter of Hollywood, so it's understandable how you would start evaluating all of them from the same standards.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by childeroland View Post
Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
~*SHH SIX*~
Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 05:19 PM   #30
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

If I liked and enjoyed and appreciated the film, and it made more money than I would guess 99.9% of all the posters here will ever see, how can it ever be an "objective" failure?

KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 06:00 PM   #31
Lord
All Mighty
 
Lord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 13,197
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Depends on what you mean with failure, artistic failure or comercial failure? Those are two different things

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by childeroland View Post
Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
~*SHH SIX*~
Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 06:35 PM   #32
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

If I liked it and enjoyed, hell, have even come to to be inspired by it (FYI, I quoted from the film in the eulogy I did for my father's funeral Mass just a week and a half ago) again, how artistically is it an objective failure? Again, when that break through in the Unified Field Theory of Art happens, let the rest of us know. For myself, I think Bill Goldman's quote about movie making is something everyone on the Hype forums should keep in mind. Just saying.

KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 06:59 PM   #33
MrsKent26
Whatever.
 
MrsKent26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Fortress of Solitude
Posts: 10,468
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

MOS wasn't a failure in any capacity. People who want to think that can do so if it makes them feel better. But the correct term for its critical reception and its reception with viewers is "mixed." And financially, it did quite well. DVD sales were also good.

MrsKent26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 07:24 PM   #34
The Batman
The Dark Knight
 
The Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 20,495
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
I don't think MOS is as "divisive" as people claim. It's not that people weren't ready for a modern re-interpretation of Superman, it's most likely that a lot of people were just bored out of their minds.
Another good post. Some MOS fans swear up and down that this film is some misunderstood complex piece of classic Cinema, one that people couldn't swallow because it was too mature/different.

To that, I say...please. Today, People eat up the kind of film MOS is. If people didn't, well...this film WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. This flick was designed to reflect this era: A Dark and Edgy reboot film in a sea of Dark and Edgy reboots.

And that is one of the reasons why this movie is not and probably wont be as well regarded as STM. You look at the kind of films being made in the 70's, and Superman stands out. As for MOS....

"Realistic" superheroes with dark color palettes? Saw that in The Dark Knight films, along with the non linear origin story.

Alien Invasions with epic fight scenes? You can See that in "The Avengers" and "Transformers".

Another brooding hero who feels isolated and is burdened with responsibility. That's basically every 21st Century Superhero.

MOS may stand out among Superman films, but in the current, competitive climate? IMO, not really. It wasn't exceptional in the same way STM was, or the way "The Dark Knight" and "The Avengers" are. But we won't ever know how successful MOS really was since Superman isnt getting a follow up solo flick.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hafizbat View Post
Welcome to the Batman v Superman forums, where people will take a perfectly reasonable comment you make and twist it into something completely different to make themselves feel better.
The Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 07:35 PM   #35
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Got it, I enjoyed, but I and others that did are mistaken in our publicly stated views. Truthfully, we were were bored by the film but we say otherwise because?

KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 07:59 PM   #36
Blitzkrieg Bop
The Dark Side
 
Blitzkrieg Bop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Under there
Posts: 7,211
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

I was quick to call Man of Steel "the best" after watching it on an IMAX 3D presentation. The movie had given me what I wanted for a long time, good action scenes. The movie was exciting. Not just for flying punches, but also because Superman was back on the big screen. Man of Steel was truly a theatrical event, for me at least.

I watched it a second time on video and the errors became a little more clear after the confetti was swept up and my opinion changed. I think Superman: The Movie is still top dog because it wasn't afraid to be Superman; colorful, romantic, whimsical. Man of Steel was unarguably guided by current Hollywood trends and because of that, it never reached its full potential. I still like Man of Steel, but it wasn't the Superman movie I wanted, nor is superior to the original Richard Donner piece.

__________________
Apes--together--strong
Blitzkrieg Bop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 08:04 PM   #37
The Batman
The Dark Knight
 
The Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 20,495
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
Got it, I enjoyed, but I and others that did are mistaken in our publicly stated views. Truthfully, we were were bored by the film but we say otherwise because?
How long did it take you to build that Straw Man?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hafizbat View Post
Welcome to the Batman v Superman forums, where people will take a perfectly reasonable comment you make and twist it into something completely different to make themselves feel better.
The Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 11:27 PM   #38
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
How long did it take you to build that Straw Man?
You left all the building material around for me brother.

__________________
My father. 1946-2014

He truly proved that every person has the potential to be a force for good in this life. So anyone that reads this, do me a favor... Call your parents.
KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 12:00 AM   #39
Skrilla31
Side-Kick
 
Skrilla31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 819
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
MOS wasn't a failure in any capacity. People who want to think that can do so if it makes them feel better. But the correct term for its critical reception and its reception with viewers is "mixed." And financially, it did quite well. DVD sales were also good.
From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to this movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.


Last edited by Skrilla31; 01-25-2014 at 03:19 AM.
Skrilla31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 12:35 AM   #40
bluearth
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 257
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
Never watched All is Lost, but i can talk with you about Gravity, it was not void of story, it did what it was supposed to do and told the story in a "realistic" way, not every film has to be told in the same way, Unfortunatelly The Man of Steel failed at the way it was telling the story, while Gravity gave us something we had not seen before with a lot of intricate film techniques and a brand new experience.
There was no story in Gravity. When I left the theater it came upon me all I had watched for the last 90 minutes was empty special effects which led to a predictable ending. Man of Steel failed at telling a taut hero origin story? Well, thats your opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
Better story? It was longer, but it was not better told at all, character development? Gravity was about the journey, and the little that was shown of the characters was relativelly well done and realistic (not a fan of that word, but in this case i fits). Criticism that may apply to a certain film may not apply to another by the way, it all comes down to how it is constructed, The Man of Steel is supposed to be the origin of a superhero and an alien invasion, while Gravity is about a person in a terrible situation, in an alien environment to us that was delivered in an original and ambitious way that we haven't seen much.

Look at stuff like Star Wars in the 70s, it was a simple story in a time full of films with a more complex storyline, yet it was nominated for Best film, and deservedly so, because it was something new, done in an interesting way, same as Raiders of the Lost Ark, and they were executed flawlessly. Nowadays this type of film is the bread and butter of Hollywood, so it's understandable how you would start evaluating all of them from the same standards.
Again, there is no story in Gravity. Its a minimalist survival film, like All is Lost. Because there is no story the film had no weight to me. Sunshine (2007) was something of a survival movie in space, but its story is what gave the film weight and made every action and outcome worth something. If Sandra Bullock's character perished, what would change, what would be different, who would care? She was disposable. Thats why a story is needed. Theres a weak attempt involving
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
her child
to get you to care about whether or not she makes it, but it falls flat.

Are we really putting all the worth of a film on the shoulder of its special effects because they felt new and different? Funny how critics are so quick to dismiss special effects in super hero or sci-fi films as mindless while refusing to credit them for improving the film, yet they praise Gravity in large part due to its special effects. Maybe they're relieved they finally got a film with special effects they could publicly praise without feeling guilty because it doesnt feature super heroes or Transformers?

Man of Steel shot for the stars, and many feel it came up just short. Even if it did fall short, should we be bashing it while praising films that shoot for the top of a tree and make it there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
Another good post. Some MOS fans swear up and down that this film is some misunderstood complex piece of classic Cinema, one that people couldn't swallow because it was too mature/different.
Some Man of Steel critics swear up and down its a poorly made generic super hero film. Who is closer to the truth? As for it turning some people off for being more mature and different, you really think that wasn't the case for some?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
To that, I say...please. Today, People eat up the kind of film MOS is. If people didn't, well...this film WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. This flick was designed to reflect this era: A Dark and Edgy reboot film in a sea of Dark and Edgy reboots.
Man of Steel was not a 'dark' film. I've had people swear to me it was darker, and more menacing then 'The Dark Knight'. But no, just no. It was simply a more realistic Superman, not a 'darker' Superman. And where are all these 'dark' reboots? I havent seen them or heard of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
And that is one of the reasons why this movie is not and probably wont be as well regarded as STM. You look at the kind of films being made in the 70's, and Superman stands out. As for MOS....
Man of Steel doesnt stand out against the massive wave of Marvel films? I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
"Realistic" superheroes with dark color palettes? Saw that in The Dark Knight films, along with the non linear origin story.
So DC has a different feel to their films. So lets hang Man of Steel for being somewhat the same as previous efforts from the outfit even though 9/10 comic book films being made today could be considered fantasy/comedies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
Alien Invasions with epic fight scenes? You can See that in "The Avengers" and "Transformers".
Why is everything getting branded as an alien invasion film?

Alien Invasion films: War of the Worlds, Independence Day, Skyline, Battle L.A. etc. The aliens are tearing things up worldwide within 20 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
Another brooding hero who feels isolated and is burdened with responsibility. That's basically every 21st Century Superhero.
Thats Iron Man, Thor, Spider Man, Captain America etc? I feel you're letting your cynicism go too far.


Last edited by bluearth; 01-25-2014 at 01:06 AM.
bluearth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 01:27 AM   #41
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,172
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to his movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.
Very, very good post. Brevity is the soul of wit, and you've identified a key issue very succinctly. I don't completely agree with you, but I think you hit the nail on the head, in terms of our hopes for this film.

I really wanted this film to put Superman back on top, public consciousness wise, or at the very least be well received (critical consensus has a lot of power). I agree, that it didn't do for Superman what Nolan's trilogy did for Batman, not even close in terms of reception by the critics and the media.

Now for me, as an individual and a fan, it did succeed, wildly so. I loved the reinterpretation of Superman, and I don't have to go far in this thread to find others who feel the same way. However, I still have to admit that MOS seems to have failed to fulfil its goal, if its goal was to copy the success of the Dark Knight films. That doesn't change my opinion of MOS
one iota, I'm on the same team as the earlier poster who saw it 6 times
on the big screen, all the way.

(BTW, glad people have brought up that it is possible to really enjoy both SMTM and MOS, you don't actually have to choose, and that wasn't the point of this thread at all, speaking as the OP, merely to see what people's preferences were, if a preference existed, and why. Really enjoyed the responses thus far)

So, in my house, MOS is an instant classic, and I found it inspiring.
Every time I see it, I like it more, and notice some new small detail I'd missed before. The music plays regularly when I'm doing stuff around the house or working out, and it gets me going in the morning.

But, having said that I don't need X-ray vision to see that beyond my walls it hasn't achieved that status. Not in terms of money (a great return on WB's investment, but not the staggering success of DK or Avengers, or even IM3, which IMO was garbage compared to MOS or Avengers, or even Iron Man, apologies to Visualiza and everyone else who liked it). Not in terms of critical response (there are critics, even prominent ones who love it, as well as those who hated it).

Truthfully, Superman's not going anywhere, I think he's so much a part of western culture that he'll always be around in some form. But, in the final analysis MOS didn't achieve what I'd hoped for the character with the wider public (and by that I mean it had the potential to be another Dark Knight, but didn't quite get there).

Although, despite it not having fulfilled this potential, I don't see how it can be characterized as a failure. It tripled its cost, and was enjoyed by a lot of people (actually, it's impressive it did so well at the box office and on DVD,
DESPITE only getting an average RT score, and having a divided crticial consensus).

So, in the final analysis, I think it's fair to say, as you did so well, that it wasn't our "Dark Knight" at least in terms of the wider public consciousness. The Dark Knight comparison being a good one, as while there are some that don't care for it, the critical and fan consensus is that that it was perhaps the best Batman movie (and I think perhaps the best
Batman movie ever - sorry Ben Affleck).

Okay, time to lighten up.

check out this, because when Batman makes Superman blink he makes a fair point, and of course it's worth laugh or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B96ctffVp8

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 01:37 AM   #42
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,172
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
If you wanted someone to show BOTH films respect, then I am your man.

I used "Schumacher fever dream" as a shorthand for the way some, especially younger views feel about S:TM. It seems that the "camp humor" in the film overshadows the fact that Donner and Co.'s attempt at verisimilitude were a totally new angle for the material at the time, and it's his work that is most often cited by the CBM directors of today as the most influential. Yes it has some, repeat, some humor that can now come off a little cornball, but I think most things, hell even 95% of the SFX are as good as anything of it's time or even today. I was wondering if what I was going to get with MOS would stand up in my estimation to SUPERMAN '78. And it didn't, because it was a very different film for a different time. It was NOT trying to be Donner/Reeve for the 21st Century and yet all the same, it worked for me. The action, the drama, the wit (yep, there was humor) all done with crackerjack execution. I walked out with my jaw on the floor. So people, it is possible to love em' both. Now I wanna know what Snyder and Co. are gonna give me by throwing The Caped Crusader and The Amazon Warrior Princess into the mix.
Totally dude !

Enjoying both films equally, for different reasons, is totally valid dude.
I'm in the same boat (although occasionally I favour MOS a little, probably because it's more recent, and after nearly 40 years I still struggle with the whole "flew around the world really fast and turned back time" thing) but yeah, loved both of them.

Some people have a preference (liked one more than the other), some have no preference (liked them both) which are all things I was interested in hearing about when I started the thread.
Other people also have no preference (hated them both and really shouldn't be on this thread, but might enjoy a Twilight or Jane Austen forum I know about) - just kidding, sort of.

I agree, that what made MOS work (for me anyway) is that at no point did it ever try to imitate or be like the Donner/Reeve films
(unlike Superman Returns, which I still say is actually worse than the
Quest for Peace).

As for Batman and Wonder Woman, in the mix I think we're all wondering that. BTW big ups for using "verisimilitude" in a post. I have never managed to pull that one off. Nice, very nice indeed !

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 01:45 AM   #43
Hulk-1700
Beast
 
Hulk-1700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,455
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Love both films immensely but I'll go with MoS here. I'll always love the Christopher Reeve Superman movies (especially the Donner cut of part two) but I think MoS trumps each of the past films in about every department.

I'm not going to dissect each of the films (yet) but I'm going with MoS, although I'll always forever love all of them (except III, IV, & Returns).

Hulk-1700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 02:40 AM   #44
KRYPTON INC.
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 15,179
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Totally dude !

Enjoying both films equally, for different reasons, is totally valid dude.
I'm in the same boat (although occasionally I favour MOS a little, probably because it's more recent, and after nearly 40 years I still struggle with the whole "flew around the world really fast and turned back time" thing) but yeah, loved both of them.

Some people have a preference (liked one more than the other), some have no preference (liked them both) which are all things I was interested in hearing about when I started the thread.
Other people also have no preference (hated them both and really shouldn't be on this thread, but might enjoy a Twilight or Jane Austen forum I know about) - just kidding, sort of.

I agree, that what made MOS work (for me anyway) is that at no point did it ever try to imitate or be like the Donner/Reeve films
(unlike Superman Returns, which I still say is actually worse than the
Quest for Peace).

As for Batman and Wonder Woman, in the mix I think we're all wondering that. BTW big ups for using "verisimilitude" in a post. I have never managed to pull that one off. Nice, very nice indeed !
My personal demarcation line between the two films, and I have seen others also state similar things so perhaps I am on to something, is that MOS was Superman as mythic scifi Hercules/messiah and that in '78 the presentation was more modern day fantasy/fairy tale with a pinch of the usual messiah stuff. It's important to remember that in the late 70's the verisimilitude Donner was going for was going to have limitations that he and Tom M. were going to bring to their execution, the brass at WB, the audience and even the nature of Hollywood films at the time themselves. Not to mention the expectations of the fan base which was being entertained by the silver age era Superman. Snyder and Co. I believe brought their A game with MOS and 9 times out of 10 for me they hit a bullseye. Could I have done with a smidge more humor, or would I have done many things different if I had my say? Yeah. Those attitudes I have don't detract from me admiring in a big way what they did in the film though. I wish it had been more accepted by the fan base too, but I really think those fans that were not pleased overstate by a large magnitude the General Audience reaction's to the film. Totally unscientific anecdote, but my dad passed very recently. We had a funeral and Mass that drew my family from all over. Everybody in my family knows I'm nuts for super heroes and have always been an evangelist for them. The kids who were only a little younger than me growing up now have little ones of their own. You know the one movie the ones that could speak (and for some speak really well) were raving about to me? MOS. My cousins in their twenties too, whom I forced to read comics and the like as a younger man, were damned impressed with the film. You can say I'm lying or whatever, it's what happened. I really think that the film has sparked great interest in the character for a newer generation, especially those raised on stuff like DBZ. And my thought has been for some time that if WB/DC finally decided to get into the DC SUPER HERO business and not just the BATMAN business they had to make Superman above all cool again. I think MOS did that and we as fans will be reaping the benefit of that in the near and distant future.

__________________
My father. 1946-2014

He truly proved that every person has the potential to be a force for good in this life. So anyone that reads this, do me a favor... Call your parents.
KRYPTON INC. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 03:43 AM   #45
bluearth
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 257
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to his movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.
And what are the instant classic films from this year? Which movie did the film pundits decide should be remembered as a classic? Gravity? All is Lost? The Butler? All decide for myself what should be considered a classic from this year thank you.

Man of Steel didnt put Superman back on people's minds again? Beating Iron Man 3, Star Trek Into Darkness and others in DVD sales seems to tell a different story. How about beating Toy Story 3's (a well established and insanely popular franchise) June box office records. And from all the forums I've been at, the hype for Batman vs Superman exceeds the hype for the new Avengers film by quite a bit. The reason? Man of Steel. If this new Superman was so bad and if Zack Snyder was so bad, would the simple addition of Batman, a Ben Affleck Batman at that, really get people that excited?

Interesting how you wanted the Dark Knight in Superman's first film, when the Dark Knight was the second film of Nolan's trilogy. Reminds me of how people talk about how there was no scene in Man of Steel like the Iron Man 3 Air Force One rescue, or how we didnt see a complete character development arc for Superman like we did when Tony Stark sacrificed himself at the end of the Avengers. Patience, please. Those were the 3rd and 4th films Iron Man has been in. Iron Man 1 had none of that, yet it was the best solo Iron Man film. Theres still plenty of room for this Superman to grow.

Man of Steel/Batman Begins. Who was the villain in Begins again? The scarecrow, or the League of Shadows? Its my opinion Man of Steel has gotten Superman off to a much better start then Batman Begins.

35 years. 35 years to put the 1978 Donner film on an unreachable and undeserved pedestal. 35 years of nothing else to compare it to, which inevitably makes it the gold standard, a 'classic', right or wrong. 35 years for Superman fans to imagine the perfect Superman film, ensuring anything that falls short of their vision is a failure.

And there is one last clue. Man of Steel is a Zack Snyder film. He wants them to cut you. He even made a movie called 'Sucker Punch' which is what it did to the audience who watched it expecting a whimsical action fantasy. None of his films have ever gone over 65% or so at Rotten Tomatoes. His movies are never going to be widely accepted because he doesnt lead you by the hand through them like Christopher Nolan. Snyder throws you in there, roughs you up, and expects you to take it on the chin like a man. Obviously this is going to make alot of people uncomfortable.

bluearth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 06:54 AM   #46
MrsKent26
Whatever.
 
MrsKent26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Fortress of Solitude
Posts: 10,468
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to this movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.
Do not tell me what I think. I don't give a hoot how the public receives it. I care what I thought. And don't talk down to me like a little child because I liked it and you didn't. Just say you didn't like it. My statement made comeplete sense.

Mos had a mixed reception. It did well financially. Hence, it wasn't a failure. I never said it was flawless and the best movie ever. And for me, it was good and left me wanting more of this superman. That's what I wanted out of it. The public reception matters very little to me, as long as it was good enough to get a sequel of sorts and it was. So, I am satisfied because I'll get more superman. Don't assume I'm kidding myself. That's unfair. I have nothing to prove to anyone and I have no problem saying what I really think.

And for the record, I wouldn't talk down to you for not liking the film. Do me the same curtesy.


Last edited by MrsKent26; 01-25-2014 at 07:06 AM.
MrsKent26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 08:27 AM   #47
sf2
Side-Kick
 
sf2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,008
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg Bop View Post
I was quick to call Man of Steel "the best" after watching it on an IMAX 3D presentation. The movie had given me what I wanted for a long time, good action scenes. The movie was exciting. Not just for flying punches, but also because Superman was back on the big screen. Man of Steel was truly a theatrical event, for me at least.

I watched it a second time on video and the errors became a little more clear after the confetti was swept up and my opinion changed. I think Superman: The Movie is still top dog because it wasn't afraid to be Superman; colorful, romantic, whimsical. Man of Steel was unarguably guided by current Hollywood trends and because of that, it never reached its full potential. I still like Man of Steel, but it wasn't the Superman movie I wanted, nor is superior to the original Richard Donner piece.
oh man, u read my mind!!! i couldn't finger point out why i'm more connected with STM and how STM is slightly better than MOS. and u just did put my feeling into words.

nevertheless, MOS is still azz kicking.

__________________
“Everything you can imagine is real.”
― Pablo Picasso
sf2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 10:41 AM   #48
Skrilla31
Side-Kick
 
Skrilla31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 819
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
Do not tell me what I think. I don't give a hoot how the public receives it. I care what I thought. And don't talk down to me like a little child because I liked it and you didn't. Just say you didn't like it. My statement made comeplete sense.

Mos had a mixed reception. It did well financially. Hence, it wasn't a failure. I never said it was flawless and the best movie ever. And for me, it was good and left me wanting more of this superman. That's what I wanted out of it. The public reception matters very little to me, as long as it was good enough to get a sequel of sorts and it was. So, I am satisfied because I'll get more superman. Don't assume I'm kidding myself. That's unfair. I have nothing to prove to anyone and I have no problem saying what I really think.

And for the record, I wouldn't talk down to you for not liking the film. Do me the same curtesy.
Your exact words in your first post were "MOS wasn't a failure in any capacity."

You didn't just say financial capacity... you said ANY capacity.

Unless of course that was translation for "My opinion of the movie is the only opinion that matters hence forth it wasn't a failure".

But we both know that isn't true since you brought up the box office numbers.

Skrilla31 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 10:54 AM   #49
Visualiza
What is a yout?
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Knowhere
Posts: 1,466
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
My statement made comeplete sense.
No, it really didn't. For one thing, you make too many presumptions, not the least which being the standards for measuring success. That's as open to interpretation as anything else; when was it ever established that success or failure is strictly based on financial performance?

Otherwise, since when does the term "mixed" figure into the criteria for success? Do you really believe that getting a mixed reception rather than a positive one is considered successful? The bottom rung of the ladder isn't exactly what I'd call success; that's the way I'd look at it if I was a studio exec, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
Mos had a mixed reception. It did well financially. Hence, it wasn't a failure.
Non sequitur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
And for the record, I wouldn't talk down to you for not liking the film. Do me the same curtesy.
But you already have:

Quote:
MOS wasn't a failure in any capacity. People who want to think that can do so if it makes them feel better.
Hate to say it, but that's the sort of reply you invite when you make backhanded comments.

The idea that MoS is only a failure to those who are lying to themselves is a ridiculous false dichotomy.

Visualiza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 12:00 PM   #50
FeedOnATreeFrog
A Metal Gear reference
 
FeedOnATreeFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,235
Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Man of Steel is not a failure. Neither was Thor TDW.

Green Lantern was a failure.


Last edited by FeedOnATreeFrog; 01-25-2014 at 12:06 PM.
FeedOnATreeFrog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.