Worst part of TASM

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Gunga Diner

I would like to preface this by saying that I think TASM has an amazing, pitch-perfect cast who are all well-chosen for their parts. I just wish they were working with better scripts or a better director.

I don't like the new Peter Parker as a character. He doesn't grow or change or become a better person. He's obsessed with his own problems and only shows interest in helping others when the plot demands it of him. He's a sexy skateboarder who stands up to bullies and breaks into maximum-security pharmaceutical/bioengineering laboratories long before he's got the spider-bite, and girls are immediately interested in him. Frankly just can't relate with this guy or any of his problems, and I don't feel like he really learns any lessons in the first movie, because it ends with him betraying his promise to Captain Stacy. And don't none of you tell me "they're saving the character development for the sequels" because the first movie should stand on its own.

I do not care about what happened to Peter's parents. I simply do not care. It is of no interest to me what crazy secrets are behind his parents' disappearance. It's not compelling and it's not relatable.

The lizard is an awful villain. His design is awful, his motivation is awful, the scene where he mixes up liquids in the chemistry lab to create an explosive is awful, and all of his repetive lines like "there's no need to stop me peter!" or "you won't get in the way of my plans, peter parker" or "you won't stop me again!" are awful.

But the suit was cool.

Actually we do see a lot of Peter's personality despite him not saying much unless in certain specific moments(I never count skateboarding as a personality trait and more as simply a mode of transportation because as he only really shows any skill after he got his powers and was testing it out in the warehouse) He doesn't really act out or shown to be outgoing until we see him as Spider-Man or Gwen learns his true identity but I feel like we do see a fair amount of the person Peter is like and that's what makes him relatable because I was like that in a sense in a few years of middle school and when I first moved to a new high school before I found clubs/friends I could hang out with but Peter had to literally create a new identity that allows him to do more which then influences him to become more outgoing and lively as Peter Parker starting with when Gwen finds out his secret identity and then at the end of the movie after Captain Stacy got Peter to make that promise as he was dying and he heard Uncle Ben's voice message/last words.


Peter is used to being a punching bag/loved to stay in the background:Look at the way he took it in stride when Flash hit him with a basketball on purpose and shrunk back when Flash pretended to be about to hit him, and look at that part where he had to squeeze past a couple blocking his locker (who completely ignored him). Everything in his body language got across that this is a guy who is used to being treated like garbage. or how everyone except Flash and Gwen seemed to avoid him after his uncle died, usually sitting in the back quietly. You don't see Peter studying or know what his grades are like in school and except for two teachers(one who tells him not to skateboard and one who berates him for being late)we don't see his relationships with his teachers and to be fair we didn't see it in the Raimi movies either. We just see Peter moving through school just another fly on the wall in a sense.

(until others get bullied): Peter telling Flash to put the kid down. After powers, Amazing Peter Parker didn't do anything to Flash until Flash picked on some girl (Peter might have been so eager because he's partly getting a little sweet revenge for himself and having fun showing off, but still).

Awkward in social situations: struggling to ask Gwen out and explaining why he had Gwen on his computer, picking at the fish while the Stacy family is laughing and being social, instead of being able to properly tell Dr.Connors how he figured out the decay rate algorithm instead of giving a proper answer he simply taps his head with a pencil,his conversation with Sally Avrill who asked him to take pictures of her boyfriend's car, his clothing looks like they are meant to blend in as opposed to the brighter primary colors he wears as Spider-Man and the clothings he wear after Captain Stacy's funeral and listening to Uncle Ben's message. Even with his Aunt May and Uncle Ben he can act quiet and awkward.

quips:

Originally Posted by TeeKay

Some good lines there. Hopefully we get more. The 'Somebody's been a bad lizard' was cheesy though but Garfield delievered it good imo. Also, that costume looked good when Spidey was a CGI double, when it was Garfield in the suit, I dunno. It didn't look good.

as Peter before he becomes Spider-Man: "that's my uncle he's a pathological liar",

jokes he made after Gwen found out he's Spider-Man:"You should see the other guy. The other guy, in this instance, being a giant mutant Lizard." (when he entered Gwen's room injured from the fight with Lizard in the sewers)
Talking to Gwen on the football stadium about the spider that bit him "yeah it got a hell of a bite there", "chocolate house?".

as Spider-Man "Uh hum a little advice if you want to steal cars don't dress up like a car thief"
"Really? You seriously think I'm cop? In a skintight red and blue outfit. You got the mind of a scholar. I was thinking more of the guys who do the luge. good thinking. Good thinking. Get out the window. "
"Crotch/look out." When he hits the car hacker with his crotch and flips him to the ground
When he hits the car thief with webbing "it's webbing I developed myself. I don't think you really want to know what's in it."
The fake sneeze hitting the car thief with the webbing
"Oh boys in blue here", "really I did 80 percent of your job and this is the thanks I get."" no one seems to grasp the concept of the mask."
"Hey I'm swinging here. I'm swinging here!" when he was swinging under the bridge while dodging the cops
Bridge scene "do me a favor and hurry up a bit" when he was saving jack from the burning car
high school fight scene:"that is disgusting: when the ripped off Lizard tail is on him, "Alright you don't want to talk (webs Lizard mouth shut) there you go", "uh oh looks like somebody's been a bad lizard"
The library/Stan Lee scene when he was dodging the Lizard he was also throwing books at him as well before he caught the desk as it was about to hit Stan/The Librarian and threw it back at the Lizard as the sneakers he threw at the Lizard when he changed into Spider-Man in the chemistry lab

Genius besides him creating the web shooters: the scene between Uncle Ben and Peter where he was able to figure out how/why the pipes and basement flooded , the electric lock on his door, in some interviews/viral campaigns they revealed he writes scientific equations on his skateboard, him being able to figure out the password from a distance (which is the most farfetched part in the movie), attaching a police scanner to his phone/ipod, his work in the lab with Dr.Connors figuring out a way, using a giant web in the sewers in order to track the Lizard using vibration in a way similar to not only how spiders track their prey (as well as a move he used in a comics called Spider-Man:the other where he used that trick to find a little girl in an apartment building that collapsed on itself)

As for the Lizard/Dr.Connors, his motivation was a more extreme version of what he wanted in human form but honestly I only feel like besides a few missing scenes that could have better helped/defined his character, he was a mostly solid foil to Spider-Man and really close to some portrayals of the original Lizard in a lot of ways.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

"I have to stop him. Its my responsibility."

Gee, I guess he didn't learn anything, did he.

The idea is that he doesn't just thrown on the costume and immediately become the "Spider-Man" that we know and love. The Raimi films skipped over all of that in SM1. He is learning, and his character does progress throughout the movie. He hasn't become a crime fighter just yet (we see that at the end of the movie when he chases the police sirens, leading into the second movie where he has become an everyday superhero), but starts out only trying to use his powers selfishly. And as far as the parents storyline, not every single story regarding Spider-Man has to be relatable. You're never going to get bitten by a Spider and get powers either, so you might as well just quit while you're at it. The Oscorp conspiracy element to the series is what makes it so much more intriguing, so if you don't like it, IDK what to tell you. *shrug*

Peter didn't betray Captain Stacy because he didn't learn anything. He couldn't reject the dying man's wishes, but he didn't want to give up his love either. Peter is stuck in a very difficult situation, and personally, I don't blame him for wanting to keep Gwen anyway. But now he will have to face the consequences in the sequel. All of the relatable elements are still there, whether you choose to see them or not is up to you.

One thing I will agree with though is that the villain was meh. Could have been a lot better.

well said better than my 2 long posts explaining thoughts on the amazing spider-man(I wish I had equipment to make a video to explain why The Amazing Spider-an is a better and faithful Spider-Man adaption).

Andrew was pretty faithful to the ideas of Spider-man and a pretty good idea of why Peter needs Spider-Man and did develop pretty well throughout the movies(felt like a nicer more restrained version of the original Ultimate Spider-Man in the first 4 arcs and Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Peter: http://comicsalliance.com/50-years-l...ider-man-1-50/)

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by ironman29758

well said better than my 2 long posts explaining thoughts on the amazing spider-man(I wish I had equipment to make a video to explain why The Amazing Spider-an is a better and faithful Spider-Man adaption).

Andrew was pretty faithful to the ideas of Spider-man and a pretty good idea of why Peter needs Spider-Man and did develop pretty well throughout the movies(felt like a nicer more restrained version of the original Ultimate Spider-Man in the first 4 arcs and Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Peter: http://comicsalliance.com/50-years-l...ider-man-1-50/)

It really bugs me when people say that Peter didn't learn anything in TASM1, or didn't go through any changes.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

It really bugs me when people say that Peter didn't learn anything in TASM1, or didn't go through any changes.

Agreed, I feel the same way. Peter was at the most a kid who is uncomfortable in social situations and is at most quiet and keeps to himself but being Spider-Man is basically a release that lets him acts out in a more or less positive way. To me it feels like being Spidey starts off as Peter attempt to hunt his uncle killer but we actually see him learn what it means to be a hero in a way as well as taking responsibility for his actions and using his gifts for good and it positively influences his life as Peter Parker because it's done in a way we haven't really seen(more or less) before compared to how the origin is usually portrayed for the most part in most media. Compared this to say the 1970 Spider-Man TV pilot which was less like Spider-Man in a lot of ways, like no death of Uncle Ben to motivate him for example.

But for some reason I feel like they can't call him a nerd or geek or isn't the Peter they're used to(more specifically Tobey Maguire/Sam Raimi Peter for the most part), they describe him the most typical insults: "Emo Punk", "Jerk", "Hipster", "Twilight kid", etc when nothing about it even close to fit Andrew portrayal of Peter Parker. It's like comparing Tobey Maguire Peter Parker to the "Revenge of the Nerds" or Screech from "Saved by the Bell" when all just feels like superficial similarities(barely any at all) but they are completely different takes all together.

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by ironman29758

well said better than my 2 long posts explaining thoughts on the amazing spider-man(I wish I had equipment to make a video to explain why The Amazing Spider-an is a better and faithful Spider-Man adaption).

Andrew was pretty faithful to the ideas of Spider-man and a pretty good idea of why Peter needs Spider-Man and did develop pretty well throughout the movies(felt like a nicer more restrained version of the original Ultimate Spider-Man in the first 4 arcs and Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Peter: http://comicsalliance.com/50-years-l...ider-man-1-50/)

Faithful in regard to the portrayal of the character itself, probably, but that's about it. The story in TASM goes against soooo much of what is established about the character thematically. The "everyman" aspect, the element of "This could happen to anybody" is GONE, completely and irrevocably. This Peter becomes Spidey because his parents are super important scientists caught up in this wacky industrial/technological intrigue. The Raimi movie was wise enough to leave the parents well enough alone, aware that backstory is NOT what makes the Spidey character interesting. It's what happens after. If we're talking about "faithful"... the question "What will a normal, good-hearted kid do should he gain spider powers?", that's what Spider-Man is about. SM1 knew that. TASM didn't.

Now, the WORST scene... I watched a bit of the movie again the other day, and I could not help but grimace at the bullying scene at the beginning. Not only is Flash a total sociopath, but then the whole friggin school joins in with the chants of "FIGHT!"... God, that's painful. No one interferes, no one tells a teacher, no adult sees anything... and the worst part: when Gwen steps up (the ONLY person, other than Peter; the level of douchery in this school alone is beyond unrealistic) they could have gone for a big "There's something about Mary"-style grilling of Flash, something to make him feel emasculated and foolish and humiliated... and what she does is talk to him about her tutoring? Wtf? Is she afraid Flash might hit her too or something? Why couldn't they use this opportunity to establish Gwen as a brave, take-no-nonsense girl? That whole scene is so damn bad.

[Nemeres]

Oh, and when the random guy kicks aside Peter's camera... yikes. I'm willing to bet that Webb sees those scenes now and just facepalms himself.

[Picard Sisko]

I'm sorry, but have you never been to high school before? On a regular basis at my school, there would be fights that don't get reported because people are afraid to "step in." Especially during lunch periods or before class started, kids got away with crazy things because no one reported any of it. Its not that unrealistic in that sense.

[Picard Sisko]

Gwen mentioned tutoring to put Flash in his place.

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

I'm sorry, but have you never been to high school before? On a regular basis at my school, there would be fights that don't get reported because people are afraid to "step in." Especially during lunch periods or before class started, kids got away with crazy things because no one reported any of it. Its not that unrealistic in that sense.

These kids aren't gang members in a public school in friggin downtown Detroit; they're well-to-do kids in a well-to-do science school, you'd think they'd be wise enough to know how to handle these things. It's not only Flash's jock and cheerleader friends, it's a very large and mixed group. Not for a second do I believe this is how things would go down with this particular crowd. Sorry, it was way over-the-top.

[Picard Sisko]

Most of the kids who start fights in schools aren't gang members. I went to school in NYC, so I do have personal experience. The way it was presented wasn't exactly "realistic," but its not as far fetched as you're making it out to be. But then again that's no surprise coming from Nemeres.

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by CyclopsWasRight

What i find funny about the hate for the broken promise was that in that situation those that say it's disrespectful wuod've done the same thing or are looking at it in too simple terms.

Peter has lost everybody but his Aunt in his life, Gwen is the only happy part of his life, he was forced to give a promise to a dying man which nobody would refuse at that moment.

Then he did stay away from her and was miserable. His Aunt said that he had a right to be happy, so it was basically a be miserable and alone and keep the promise or break the promise and be happy with the woman he loves.

He made the right call, the same call we'd all make.

That being said the actual line was bad, he should've just looked at her with a look that said he'd reunite with her or had a different line.

See, it's not necessarily the broken promise that bugs me, it's the fact that he breaks it so damn quickly, and he's perfectly aware of it, and he even has the gall to be funny about it... I like the fact that (if things go as speculated) he's gonna wind up regretting that decision. That in itself is cool. But the way they handled it was just bad.

[Picard Sisko]

"has the gall to be funny about it…"

Huh?

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Most of the kids who start fights in schools aren't gang members. I went to school in NYC, so I do have personal experience. The way it was presented wasn't exactly "realistic," but its not as far fetched as you're making it out to be. But then again that's no surprise coming from Nemeres.

Between "extremely realistic" and "far fetched" there's a whole spectrum of possibilities. The TASM team went for one that worked particularly badly, and I guarantee you it's not just Nemeres who feels that way. You have to let a flawed movie be a flawed movie.

[Picard Sisko]

Ehh, its a very minor flaw.

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Ehh, its a very minor flaw.

Comparatively, yes. You know what, I take that back, it's not the worst scene in the film, but it's probably the most overtly ridiculous one, along with the cranes. These criticisms aren't meant as an attack on your patience (you shouldn't let them be that), but hey, one thinks what one thinks. I'm not stretching to dislike something. Come on, I'm sure TASM 2 will be better.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Most of the kids who start fights in schools aren't gang members. I went to school in NYC, so I do have personal experience. The way it was presented wasn't exactly "realistic," but its not as far fetched as you're making it out to be. But then again that's no surprise coming from Nemeres.

I went to 2 high schools in Maryland and there have been multiple fights not only during Lunch Time but during classes as well and after school and I've only seen the staff stop a relative few even though a lot of teens knew it was happening. It sucks honestly but it does happens in High School more times than people would like to admit.. I feel like that scene is basically showing the Bystander effect where individuals do not offer any means of help to a victim when other people are present(in this case except for Peter and Gwen). The probability of help is inversely related to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. Here's a likely better explanation of it in High Schools: http://www.theherocc.com/beating-the...tter-to-teens/.



At the most the closest comparison to it is that "Natural Selection" of Spectacular Spider-Man when Peter is attacked with water balloons by Flash Thompson and his sidekick Kenny Kong, (which he dodges until he realizes it might reveal his secret identity as Spider-Man) before Gwen steps in and gets everyone to laugh at Flash instead where no teacher or adult stepped through either. Yes Gwen humiliated Flash better but Gwen just needed to find a way to stop him from targeting Peter. Or the two times MJ stop Peter in Spider-Man 1, and the one time she couldn't because she got a ride with her friends when Peter missed the bus. Like Senator Pleasury said, Gwen(or MJ) tries to find a way to stop Flash picking on Peter while a crowd just watches on and doesn't do anything(who in TASM was stopping Flash from picking on someone else). In the movies she's stops him by targeting his intelligence/grades, In Spectacular Spider-Man she targets his athletic ability and a loss of Midtown high, In Spider-Man the movie, Mary Jane was the only one who told the bus driver to stop, MJ was the only one asking someone (Harry) to defend Peter against Flash.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Faithful in regard to the portrayal of the character itself, probably, but that's about it. The story in TASM goes against soooo much of what is established about the character thematically. The "everyman" aspect, the element of "This could happen to anybody" is GONE, completely and irrevocably. This Peter becomes Spidey because his parents are super important scientists caught up in this wacky industrial/technological intrigue. The Raimi movie was wise enough to leave the parents well enough alone, aware that backstory is NOT what makes the Spidey character interesting. It's what happens after. If we're talking about "faithful"... the question "What will a normal, good-hearted kid do should he gain spider powers?", that's what Spider-Man is about. SM1 knew that. TASM didn't.

Now, the WORST scene... I watched a bit of the movie again the other day, and I could not help but grimace at the bullying scene at the beginning. Not only is Flash a total sociopath, but then the whole friggin school joins in with the chants of "FIGHT!"... God, that's painful. No one interferes, no one tells a teacher, no adult sees anything... and the worst part: when Gwen steps up (the ONLY person, other than Peter; the level of douchery in this school alone is beyond unrealistic) they could have gone for a big "There's something about Mary"-style grilling of Flash, something to make him feel emasculated and foolish and humiliated... and what she does is talk to him about her tutoring? Wtf? Is she afraid Flash might hit her too or something? Why couldn't they use this opportunity to establish Gwen as a brave, take-no-nonsense girl? That whole scene is so damn bad.

I think what TASM is doing is more similar to what Ultimate Spider-Man and a lesser extent some Spider-Man comics like The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5 or the "Sinister Six" novel trilogy by Adam-Troy Castro:Trask Industries and Bolivar Trask is replaced by Oscorp and Norman Osborn, Edward Brock sr.(the scientist working with Richard Parker before he died) is replaced more or less by Dr.Connors and Eddie Brock jr is more or less seems like what Harry is(Peter Parker's childhood friend who Peter fell out of touch with before he came back and became a supervillain) , Peter's father in a way led had an influence on Spider-man's life. In ultimate Spider-Man Peter complete his father's research on adhesives, creating a formula used to create artificial webs,Richard's name and work were known by scientists (including Dr. Curt Connors/Conners and the Ultimates Wasp and Giant Man) involved in re-creating the super-soldier formula that created Captain America, his project became the basis of Venom, he was working and the Hulk first appeared.

But at the end of the day the theme is pretty much the same: It's Peter trying to figure something no one ever explain fully how or why it happened but tries hard to discover it anyway: the people who were most important to him left and never really explained why. What happened to his parents. This would influence parts of his life growing up and understandably so. Yes Peter searching for why his parents life left to him get his spider and starts him on the bigger mystery of what Oscorp is doing. But it does examine why Peter is a hero and what it means being responsible and using your gifts nonetheless in a different way but it still works at least for me but obviously not for you. It's not actually capturing the murderer and realizing his part in Uncle Ben's death that made Peter a hero but the Lizard which he had a part in creating, Captain Stacy and what happened on the bridge ending with listening to Uncle Ben's last words/voice message that turned him into a true hero(in fact in the first few issues Peter was a little more selfish and self centered even after learning "with Great power"). Yes Uncle Ben had a big influence and a big part of Peter becoming Spider-Man but he isn't/was never the only influence in Peter's life to me.


While yes the Raimi Spider-Man was in essence an "everyman" displaying how Spider-Man basically affects Peter social and work life(Sometimes playing it up hard for my tastes but it did it right) but it's more focused was on Peter/MJ/Harry relationship. With Peter's relationship with MJ I thought it was more played up than what could have been. Everything important in Spider-Man 1-3 was either was mainly connected to MJ or Uncle Ben(Uncle Ben made sense to me because he's dealing with the grief of Uncle Ben throughout the trilogy before he finally makes peace with his death in a sense in the third movie even though it's a bit lackluster). Peter got bit because he was taking pictures of MJ. Peter only became a wrestler which was what led to Uncle Ben death because Peter needed money to get a car to impress her. MJ just happened to be dating the son of Peter's boss. Doctor Octavius and Rosilia and to a lesser extend Eddie Brock and Gwen's relationship were suppose to be compared to Peter and MJ's relationship. At times It felt like everything kind of revolved around MJ(even the opening narration supports this). I know she is the main love interest but still I like how this movie is looking at a different parts of Spider-Man life/universe than the Raimi trilogy did. Like I said and Senator Pleasury that even without his powers Peter was fairly different from other kids. Yes he has everyday problems, he is a genius who creates web shooters, spider tracers, etc. Mark and Webb Andrew Garfield take on Peter is still an everyman but in a sense closer to the comics in sense while Sam Raimi and Tobey Maguire took other everyman qualities more specifically how Spider-Man affected Peter's life for the better or worse. He still get bitten by a spider but the circumstances behind it are different(closer to Ultimate Spider-Man comics).

[Senator Pleasury]

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Faithful in regard to the portrayal of the character itself, probably, but that's about it. The story in TASM goes against soooo much of what is established about the character thematically. The "everyman" aspect, the element of "This could happen to anybody" is GONE, completely and irrevocably. This Peter becomes Spidey because his parents are super important scientists caught up in this wacky industrial/technological intrigue. The Raimi movie was wise enough to leave the parents well enough alone, aware that backstory is NOT what makes the Spidey character interesting. It's what happens after. If we're talking about "faithful"... the question "What will a normal, good-hearted kid do should he gain spider powers?", that's what Spider-Man is about. SM1 knew that. TASM didn't.

Well, the problem with TASM is that it had to be different from Raimi's take, which was more or less very faithful to the original comics.

That said, the everyman aspect is as much here as it was there. Or it's not (depending on your view ), but the same way. Peter Parker is far from being the everyday man (even when you can relate to him). He has always been remarkably intelligent. Garfield's Peter is still a "normal, good-hearted kid" that gains spider-powers and has to do something with them. But Peter Parker has always been a kid above normal, one who can build web-shooters. Well, except when Raimi considered that Peter shouldn't be that capable and smart, because for a kid who gained super-powers from a spider, that wouldn't be very believable. But still, peter has traditionally been above normal, but with normal problems in his personal life (have to pay bills, make money, be on time, get the girl, etc).

Now, the "this could happen to anyone"? You mean, like in any person's daily visit to a scientific experiment with radiation that happens to affect one spider? That's far from being something that happens to anyone, and it doesn't change here.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Now, the WORST scene... I watched a bit of the movie again the other day, and I could not help but grimace at the bullying scene at the beginning. Not only is Flash a total sociopath, but then the whole friggin school joins in with the chants of "FIGHT!"... God, that's painful. No one interferes, no one tells a teacher, no adult sees anything...

Well, that's movies. In Raimi's take, the very school bus driver had fun out of making an underage student run after the bus... much to the amusement of everyone... on a daily basis. No, no one denounced the driver, no one told him to stop (well, except MJ... once; the second time the bus just left Peter running behind and MJ forgot to defend Parker) and everyone bullied Peter Parker to no end... even after became Spider-man, at his university. Or when Flash fought Peter in the hall. Everyone stood there staring, amused by the fight, no adult seeing, no one able to control the situation. Same thing.

So yes, in TASM the bully still bullies, but this time Flash Thompson at least had more than that one dimension.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

and the worst part: when Gwen steps up (the ONLY person, other than Peter; the level of douchery in this school alone is beyond unrealistic) they could have gone for a big "There's something about Mary"-style grilling of Flash, something to make him feel emasculated and foolish and humiliated... and what she does is talk to him about her tutoring? Wtf? Is she afraid Flash might hit her too or something? Why couldn't they use this opportunity to establish Gwen as a brave, take-no-nonsense girl? That whole scene is so damn bad.

Again, same thing. Mary Jane was the only one who told the bus driver to stop, MJ was the only one asking someone (Harry) to defend Peter against Flash.

Now, about Gwen and Flash. Yes. Very smart of her to make him look bad in front of others. Yes, you can punch someone, how about your grades, can you beat a book as well? That's brave, no matter what verbal strategy she used, it's still facing the bully in front of the rest.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Oh, and when the random guy kicks aside Peter's camera... yikes. I'm willing to bet that Webb sees those scenes now and just facepalms himself.

If that happened, then Raimi would have his entire face red, as he only used that kind of random uncalled unprovoked cliched bullying to depict Peter as... a complete social inept once and again for three movies.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

See, it's not necessarily the broken promise that bugs me, it's the fact that he breaks it so damn quickly, and he's perfectly aware of it, and he even has the gall to be funny about it... I like the fact that (if things go as speculated) he's gonna wind up regretting that decision. That in itself is cool. But the way they handled it was just bad.

If Gwen follows the same fate as her comic counterpart, so yes, Peter will be regretting it.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Comparatively, yes. You know what, I take that back, it's not the worst scene in the film, but it's probably the most overtly ridiculous one, along with the cranes. These criticisms aren't meant as an attack on your patience (you shouldn't let them be that), but hey, one thinks what one thinks. I'm not stretching to dislike something. Come on, I'm sure TASM 2 will be better.

The cranes scene is comparable to the new yorkers scene in SM1. Except now we know why those people are helping Spider-man, we don't have a super-villain that stays inexplicably still while insulted and physically attacked by random people he could kill instantly, and we don't have those cheesy lines Raimi adored ("Yeah, I got something for your ass! You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York"). So far, vast improvement.

[jonathancrane]

I am getting somewhat tired of how New Yorkers are getting portrayed as the best people on the planet.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Well, the problem with TASM is that it had to be different from Raimi's take, which was more or less very faithful to the original comics.

That said, the everyman aspect is as much here as it was there. Or it's not (depending on your view ), but the same way. Peter Parker is far from being the everyday man (even when you can relate to him). He has always been remarkably intelligent. Garfield's Peter is still a "normal, good-hearted kid" that gains spider-powers and has to do something with them. But Peter Parker has always been a kid above normal, one who can build web-shooters. Well, except when Raimi considered that Peter shouldn't be that capable and smart, because for a kid who gained super-powers from a spider, that wouldn't be very believable. But still, peter has traditionally been above normal, but with normal problems in his personal life (have to pay bills, make money, be on time, get the girl, etc).

Now, the "this could happen to anyone"? You mean, like in any person's daily visit to a scientific experiment with radiation that happens to affect one spider? That's far from being something that happens to anyone, and it doesn't change here.



Well, that's movies. In Raimi's take, the very school bus driver had fun out of making an underage student run after the bus... much to the amusement of everyone... on a daily basis. No, no one denounced the driver, no one told him to stop (well, except MJ... once; the second time the bus just left Peter running behind and MJ forgot to defend Parker) and everyone bullied Peter Parker to no end... even after became Spider-man, at his university. Or when Flash fought Peter in the hall. Everyone stood there staring, amused by the fight, no adult seeing, no one able to control the situation. Same thing.

So yes, in TASM the bully still bullies, but this time Flash Thompson at least had more than that one dimension.



Again, same thing. Mary Jane was the only one who told the bus driver to stop, MJ was the only one asking someone (Harry) to defend Peter against Flash.

Now, about Gwen and Flash. Yes. Very smart of her to make him look bad in front of others. Yes, you can punch someone, how about your grades, can you beat a book as well? That's brave, no matter what verbal strategy she used, it's still facing the bully in front of the rest.



If that happened, then Raimi would have his entire face red, as he only used that kind of random uncalled unprovoked cliched bullying to depict Peter as... a complete social inept once and again for three movies.



If Gwen follows the same fate as her comic counterpart, so yes, Peter will be regretting it.



The cranes scene is comparable to the new yorkers scene in SM1. Except now we know why those people are helping Spider-man, we don't have a super-villain that stays inexplicably still while insulted and physically attacked by random people he could kill instantly, and we don't have those cheesy lines Raimi adored ("Yeah, I got something for your ass! You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York"). So far, vast improvement.

well said. I agree with every word.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by jonathancrane

I am getting somewhat tired of how New Yorkers are getting portrayed as the best people on the planet.

It works when done right. Sometimes it's great seeing the people got the superheroes back or the Superhero being patriotic in a sense but sometime you just facepalm when's played hard and is unnecessary to the movie or scene in question(Man of Steel when Clark tells the government agents he's been on Earth for 33 years and he landed in Kansas when he's trying to keep his identity secret when he could have just said I've been on this planet for a long time without revealing secret details in order to gain their trust, some of the bystanders reaction in Spider-Man 2, etc).

[Nemeres]

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Well, the problem with TASM is that it had to be different from Raimi's take, which was more or less very faithful to the original comics.

That said, the everyman aspect is as much here as it was there. Or it's not (depending on your view ), but the same way. Peter Parker is far from being the everyday man (even when you can relate to him). He has always been remarkably intelligent. Garfield's Peter is still a "normal, good-hearted kid" that gains spider-powers and has to do something with them. But Peter Parker has always been a kid above normal, one who can build web-shooters. Well, except when Raimi considered that Peter shouldn't be that capable and smart, because for a kid who gained super-powers from a spider, that wouldn't be very believable. But still, peter has traditionally been above normal, but with normal problems in his personal life (have to pay bills, make money, be on time, get the girl, etc).

Brian K Vaughn had a cool thing to say in an interview about Y The Last Man: Funnily enough, it's the characters with the most quirks and specific characteristics that are the most easy to relate to. I have zero problem with Peter being a whiz kid with plenty of smarts. How could I? But this extra mythology/backstory of TASM is not only unnecessary to the character's appeal to begin with, but it also feels (to me) shoehorned and different for difference's sake, like so many other things in the movie. I have no issue with extended mythologies, especially in reboots, where they become necessary, but it's a problem when it interferes with the character's essence.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Now, the "this could happen to anyone"? You mean, like in any person's daily visit to a scientific experiment with radiation that happens to affect one spider? That's far from being something that happens to anyone, and it doesn't change here.

Under that argument, parameters go out the window. Couldn't agree less with that logic.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Well, that's movies. In Raimi's take, the very school bus driver had fun out of making an underage student run after the bus... much to the amusement of everyone... on a daily basis. No, no one denounced the driver, no one told him to stop (well, except MJ... once; the second time the bus just left Peter running behind and MJ forgot to defend Parker) and everyone bullied Peter Parker to no end... even after became Spider-man, at his university. Or when Flash fought Peter in the hall. Everyone stood there staring, amused by the fight, no adult seeing, no one able to control the situation. Same thing.

It IS movies. But I don't have the POV of "It was either that or nothing at all". SM1 was guilty of the same, sure.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

So yes, in TASM the bully still bullies, but this time Flash Thompson at least had more than that one dimension.

Well, that's true. It's hard to buy Flash's redemption, though, when he's the kind of guy who has no problem socking people in the face willy nilly... which also makes it weird and uncharacteristic that he should approach Peter in such a friendly manner, considering their level of antagonism towards each other was always 100%. Could have also been done better.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Now, about Gwen and Flash. Yes. Very smart of her to make him look bad in front of others. Yes, you can punch someone, how about your grades, can you beat a book as well? That's brave, no matter what verbal strategy she used, it's still facing the bully in front of the rest.

It does matter, it's her introductory scene. Why go for something so mellow and unclear and bland? I'm not judging Gwen's integrity as a person, I'm judging the writers' creative choices.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

If that happened, then Raimi would have his entire face red, as he only used that kind of random uncalled unprovoked cliched bullying to depict Peter as... a complete social inept once and again for three movies.

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. I'm talking about TASM here.

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

The cranes scene is comparable to the new yorkers scene in SM1. Except now we know why those people are helping Spider-man, we don't have a super-villain that stays inexplicably still while insulted and physically attacked by random people he could kill instantly, and we don't have those cheesy lines Raimi adored ("Yeah, I got something for your ass! You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York"). So far, vast improvement.

They're both extremely cheesy scenes. But TASM's has a convoluted-as-all-hell motivation, and considering it's supposed to be one of the film's key emotional moments and it falls (for way too many people to ignore) completely flat on its face, it weighs even extra as a flaw. To each his own, to quote the Green Goblin, but I still think that SM1 stands head and shoulders over TASM. I know I'm in the minority, at least here at SHH. Let's see how TASM 2 does, I have high hopes.

[Picard Sisko]

Originally Posted by Senator Pleasury

Well, the problem with TASM is that it had to be different from Raimi's take, which was more or less very faithful to the original comics.

That said, the everyman aspect is as much here as it was there. Or it's not (depending on your view ), but the same way. Peter Parker is far from being the everyday man (even when you can relate to him). He has always been remarkably intelligent. Garfield's Peter is still a "normal, good-hearted kid" that gains spider-powers and has to do something with them. But Peter Parker has always been a kid above normal, one who can build web-shooters. Well, except when Raimi considered that Peter shouldn't be that capable and smart, because for a kid who gained super-powers from a spider, that wouldn't be very believable. But still, peter has traditionally been above normal, but with normal problems in his personal life (have to pay bills, make money, be on time, get the girl, etc).

Now, the "this could happen to anyone"? You mean, like in any person's daily visit to a scientific experiment with radiation that happens to affect one spider? That's far from being something that happens to anyone, and it doesn't change here.



Well, that's movies. In Raimi's take, the very school bus driver had fun out of making an underage student run after the bus... much to the amusement of everyone... on a daily basis. No, no one denounced the driver, no one told him to stop (well, except MJ... once; the second time the bus just left Peter running behind and MJ forgot to defend Parker) and everyone bullied Peter Parker to no end... even after became Spider-man, at his university. Or when Flash fought Peter in the hall. Everyone stood there staring, amused by the fight, no adult seeing, no one able to control the situation. Same thing.

So yes, in TASM the bully still bullies, but this time Flash Thompson at least had more than that one dimension.



Again, same thing. Mary Jane was the only one who told the bus driver to stop, MJ was the only one asking someone (Harry) to defend Peter against Flash.

Now, about Gwen and Flash. Yes. Very smart of her to make him look bad in front of others. Yes, you can punch someone, how about your grades, can you beat a book as well? That's brave, no matter what verbal strategy she used, it's still facing the bully in front of the rest.



If that happened, then Raimi would have his entire face red, as he only used that kind of random uncalled unprovoked cliched bullying to depict Peter as... a complete social inept once and again for three movies.



If Gwen follows the same fate as her comic counterpart, so yes, Peter will be regretting it.



The cranes scene is comparable to the new yorkers scene in SM1. Except now we know why those people are helping Spider-man, we don't have a super-villain that stays inexplicably still while insulted and physically attacked by random people he could kill instantly, and we don't have those cheesy lines Raimi adored ("Yeah, I got something for your ass! You mess with Spidey, you mess with New York"). So far, vast improvement.

Well said, man.

[Senator Pleasury]

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Brian K Vaughn had a cool thing to say in an interview about Y The Last Man: Funnily enough, it's the characters with the most quirks and specific characteristics that are the most easy to relate to. I have zero problem with Peter being a whiz kid with plenty of smarts. How could I? But this extra mythology/backstory of TASM is not only unnecessary to the character's appeal to begin with, but it also feels (to me) shoehorned and different for difference's sake, like so many other things in the movie. I have no issue with extended mythologies, especially in reboots, where they become necessary, but it's a problem when it interferes with the character's essence.

How does it interfere with the character's essence? Peter Parker keeps being a normal good-hearted kid, loving uncles, shy, smart. The "everyman" aspect you mentioned, the element of "This could happen to anybody" is still the same. Peter Parker has never been just every man and what happened to him couldn't happen to just anyone. If he hadn't been a science student or had been just the average student, he would't have attended to the experiment, to start with.

But I did admit that distancing themselves from the Raimi movie was a problem. Yet, if anything, it gave a reason as to why Peter and that spider crossed paths, beyond mere coincidence. I'm not saying it's better this way.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Under that argument, parameters go out the window. Couldn't agree less with that logic.

There's no logic here. There's is verification of the facts in Spider-man's story.

What happened to him is, by any standard, extraordinary. It couldn't happen to anyone.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

It IS movies. But I don't have the POV of "It was either that or nothing at all". SM1 was guilty of the same, sure.

Oh? Thought your argument here was that Raimi had got right what Webb didn't?

You criticized the bullying scene in TASM detail by detail as one of the worse things in the movie when, in fact, every aspect you criticized was present in Raimi's first spider-movie: bully beats someone and nobody interferes, the rest are amused by this, the girl is the only one who stops him, a random student attacked Peter for no reason.

The only difference is that Webb's Peter did something about it, he didn't just accept the abuse. Oh,m and the bully having more than one dimension.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Well, that's true. It's hard to buy Flash's redemption, though, when he's the kind of guy who has no problem socking people in the face willy nilly... which also makes it weird and uncharacteristic that he should approach Peter in such a friendly manner, considering their level of antagonism towards each other was always 100%. Could have also been done better.

Sure, it could have been done better. Maybe if we had heard that Flash lost someone too, so we can see why he relates to Peter's loss.

But after Raimi's one dimensional cliche, it was a vast improvement. Because Flash doesn't just change in one scene, by the end of the movie, he gets that what Spider-man represents can be an aspirational style.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

It does matter, it's her introductory scene. Why go for something so mellow and unclear and bland? I'm not judging Gwen's integrity as a person, I'm judging the writers' creative choices.

Bland? By bringing up Flash's weaknesses (his intellect), he totally nullified the guy's macho attitude by, precisely, remind him that "nerds" are better than him in something. And her message was pretty clear. Gwen was too smart to follow Flash's language, that understands everything under the macho perspective.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. I'm talking about TASM here.

I think you compared it to Raimi's movie enough times to say that you were talking TASM exclusively here.

Originally Posted by Nemeres

They're both extremely cheesy scenes. But TASM's has a convoluted-as-all-hell motivation, and considering it's supposed to be one of the film's key emotional moments and it falls (for way too many people to ignore) completely flat on its face, it weighs even extra as a flaw. To each his own, to quote the Green Goblin, but I still think that SM1 stands head and shoulders over TASM. I know I'm in the minority, at least here at SHH. Let's see how TASM 2 does, I have high hopes.

"Convulted-as-hell motivation" as in "Spider-man saves people and those people are inspired by that"? Isn't this inherent traditional Spider-man stuff right there?

And exactly, for how many people does the scene fail so we can't ignore it?

The scene does explain the actions of the crane guy as directly derived from Spider-man's heroism and he does get to help him back. But giving actions a background is falling flat.

It's not just random people coming from nowhere, throwing sticks and cheesey lines to a villain that, for absolutely no reason whatsoever, decides to stay still for the first time ever, and NOT attack back even when he has every reason, opportunity and ability to. In TASM you get a story behind the scene.


****************************

Originally Posted by Picard Sisko

Well said, man.

Thanks, Picard S.

[Picard Sisko]

No problem. I think we've come to the point where we can say arguing with Nemeres is pointless.