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Old 01-25-2014, 04:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Missing the point. Movies, just like any other form of art, are to be judged on both objective and subjective terms. Personal preference isn't the quintessential criteria for whether or not a movie is good or bad. Of course it can't be narrowed down in a factual sense, but one can still exercise their better judgment as well as their own preferences.

I'll say one thing, the propensity of this fan community to immediately assert their favorite whatever as being synonymous with quality is reaching new levels of absurdity. The folks who freely talked about their guilty pleasures...those are the ones I miss. I have a lot more respect for someone who can admit that they enjoyed something in spite of its flaws than I do the zealous fanatic who takes a bizarre sense of pride and ownership in the things that they like.

This sort of thing makes me wonder if people have this same mentality about the food they eat. If a hot dog is someone's favorite thing to eat, do they also swear up and down that it's the best food the world has ever seen? It may taste good (akin to how a film like MoS is enjoyable), it may satisfy a craving (akin to how MoS is "the Superman movie I've always been waiting for!!!"), but none of that stuff makes it good, nor should supersede the myriad of other important standards by which food (movies) should be judged.

Personally, I feel that the MoS fanbase by and large falls into this "I like it, therefore it's the best" group, and a huge part of it is based upon their analyses of the movie as well as their knee-jerk reactions to criticism. Stuff like "This is Superman for the 21st century" isn't exactly what I'd call legitimate praise; that sort of commentary is far too vague and trite to be taken seriously. On the other hand, I've found the criticisms of the film to be far more lucid and reasonable than the praise, but even in this case, many of the more defensive fans take certain criticisms so far out of context to the point of being unrecognizable, and then they "rebut" them as such. A perfect example is this fallacy about MoS not being like the Donner films. Write this down and take it to the bank, but not one critic has ever said that MoS is a failure for not being like SM '78, not even implicitly; this one of several falsehoods that indignant fans have convinced themselves of. On the other hand, what has indeed happened is that some critics have compared and contrasted the two, since they...you know...feature the same protagonist to illustrate certain points. We don't live in a vacuum, folks; favorable and unfavorable comparisons between the two are inevitable, as well as being fair game. What's hypocritical is that the defenders cry foul whenever MoS is compared unfavorably to S:TM, but they're just as quick to wax poetically about how superior an adaptation this movie is to its predecessors. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

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Old 01-25-2014, 04:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to this movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.
From one superman fan to another, she does, as do I.

And I know it.

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Old 01-25-2014, 04:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Some Man of Steel critics swear up and down its a poorly made generic super hero film. Who is closer to the truth? As for it turning some people off for being more mature and different, you really think that wasn't the case for some?
That's the thing...we aren't talking about "What's closer to the truth". Its not factual to say its a generic superhero film, and it ain't factual to say its a piece of brilliant cinema. The closest thing to fact is that this movie has had a divisive response among its viewers.



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Man of Steel was not a 'dark' film. I've had people swear to me it was darker, and more menacing then 'The Dark Knight'. But no, just no. It was simply a more realistic Superman, not a 'darker' Superman. And where are all these 'dark' reboots? I havent seen them or heard of them.
"Casino Royale", "Star Trek", "Amazing Spider Man", "Friday the 13th", "Halloween", etc. Dark is probably not the right word, more like "Serious". Much like reboots before MOS, Any hint of camp of fun has been taken out of the movie, IMO.



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Man of Steel doesnt stand out against the massive wave of Marvel films? I disagree.
It sure as hell dosen't stand out compared to "The Avengers" or "Iron Man 1". At best, its on the same level as the rest of the Marvel films. That's not standing out. That's fitting in, and that's a problem not just with MOS, but with Superman's current status in general.


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So DC has a different feel to their films. So lets hang Man of Steel for being somewhat the same as previous efforts from the outfit even though 9/10 comic book films being made today could be considered fantasy/comedies.
Your problem is that you have black/white thinking. You assume that if it isn't like TDK in tone, it must be like the Marvel Films. You probably assume that the latter is what people wanted from this film.



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Why is everything getting branded as an alien invasion film?
Did Goyer himself not describe this as a first contact film? Did this film not include an invasion from alien people?

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Alien Invasion films: War of the Worlds, Independence Day, Skyline, Battle L.A. etc. The aliens are tearing things up worldwide within 20 minutes.
Once again, you show a narrow view of things. Next you're going to tell me that TDK isnt a crime film because mobsters aren't getting whacked within 20 minutes.






Thats Iron Man, Thor, Spider Man, Captain America etc? I feel you're letting your cynicism go too far.[/QUOTE]

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Old 01-25-2014, 04:39 PM   #54
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

The people who like MOS agree with one another. The people who dislike MOS agree with one another.

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Old 01-25-2014, 04:44 PM   #55
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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the hype for Batman vs Superman exceeds the hype for the new Avengers film by quite a bit. The reason?
1. The first Big Screen meeting of the two biggest Superheroes
2. The First big screen appearance of the biggest female Superhero.
3. Ben Affleck is playing Batman.

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Man of Steel. If this new Superman was so bad and if Zack Snyder was so bad, would the simple addition of Batman, a Ben Affleck Batman at that, really get people that excited?
In a word...yes. No one's really talking about MOS.

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Interesting how you wanted the Dark Knight in Superman's first film, when the Dark Knight was the second film of Nolan's trilogy. Reminds me of how people talk about how there was no scene in Man of Steel like the Iron Man 3 Air Force One rescue, or how we didnt see a complete character development arc for Superman like we did when Tony Stark sacrificed himself at the end of the Avengers. Patience, please. Those were the 3rd and 4th films Iron Man has been in. Iron Man 1 had none of that, yet it was the best solo Iron Man film. Theres still plenty of room for this Superman to grow.
STM is a classic and that was the first film from its series.

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Man of Steel/Batman Begins. Who was the villain in Begins again? The scarecrow, or the League of Shadows? Its my opinion Man of Steel has gotten Superman off to a much better start then Batman Begins.
Except Batman Begins was better received, both by the critics and among fans. The only area where MOS did better was BO, and Batman Begins didnt have the benefit of higher ticket prices, 3D ticket sales, and a massive push from WB marketing.

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35 years. 35 years to put the 1978 Donner film on an unreachable and undeserved pedestal. 35 years of nothing else to compare it to, which inevitably makes it the gold standard, a 'classic', right or wrong. 35 years for Superman fans to imagine the perfect Superman film, ensuring anything that falls short of their vision is a failure.
This dosen't make sense. There were four movies after STM and before MOS, as well as 3 Live Action TV Shows, and 2 Cartoons. There was plenty to compare STM to. Once again, MOS defenders try to conjure up straw man arguments to justify divisive response.

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And there is one last clue. Man of Steel is a Zack Snyder film. He wants them to cut you. He even made a movie called 'Sucker Punch' which is what it did to the audience who watched it expecting a whimsical action fantasy. None of his films have ever gone over 65% or so at Rotten Tomatoes. His movies are never going to be widely accepted because he doesnt lead you by the hand through them like Christopher Nolan. Snyder throws you in there, roughs you up, and expects you to take it on the chin like a man. Obviously this is going to make alot of people uncomfortable.
Or maybe for some people, Zack Snyder is a good visual director with flawed storytelling skills.

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Old 01-25-2014, 06:10 PM   #56
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Man of Steel is not a failure. Neither was Thor TDW.

Green Lantern was a failure.

couldn't agree more !

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Old 01-25-2014, 10:42 PM   #57
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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From one Superman fan to another, you can't possibly believe that. And you know it.

This movie was NOT received by the public the way we all wanted it to be. This was supposed to be our Dark Knight. This was supposed to be the movie that propelled Superman back to the top of public consciousness. All signs pointed to this movie being an event film and revitalization of the Superman character. An instant classic.

It wasn't.
I really don't think that's the case. Yes, MoS was meant to be a reintroduction of the character to the general audience & to popular culture, but it wasn't ever built up to be anything like The Dark Knight.

Regardless of the popularity of any character, I think it takes a few efforts to catapult him into the consciousness of the public. Batman Begins wasn't received like "The Dark Knight" was but it was still a great film that helped build things up to be able to lead to that point.

The problem with a lot of fans is that they expect instant perfection, or just perfection period. Fact of the matter is movies like "The Dark Knight" only come around once in a lifetime so people need to lower expectations & stop comparing every CBM to it.

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Old 01-25-2014, 11:10 PM   #58
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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No, it really didn't. For one thing, you make too many presumptions, not the least which being the standards for measuring success. That's as open to interpretation as anything else; when was it ever established that success or failure is strictly based on financial performance?

Otherwise, since when does the term "mixed" figure into the criteria for success? Do you really believe that getting a mixed reception rather than a positive one is considered successful? The bottom rung of the ladder isn't exactly what I'd call success; that's the way I'd look at it if I was a studio exec, anyway.



Non sequitur.



But you already have:

Hate to say it, but that's the sort of reply you invite when you make backhanded comments.

The idea that MoS is only a failure to those who are lying to themselves is a ridiculous false dichotomy.
Nice try.

They weren't talking about mos being a failure in their eyes for their own reasons, they were talking about it being an objective failure to masses. Which is incorrect. If they want to state their personal reasons it failed them, they can do so. But claims that a movie that made 660 million or so, got mixed reviews and had decent DVD sales was a failure with the masses is incorrect. Maybe they expected more, but that still doesn't put it in failure category.

I didn't make any back handed comments. I was saying that people who think mos failed people en mass, rather than simply saying it failed them personally, are seeing what they want to see. You're twisting my words because all you've got is straw men. I never said mixed reviews made it the pinnacle of success. I said they don't mean it's a failure.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with this since I don't really care what other people think is a failure. I liked it. Others didn't. The end.

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Old 01-25-2014, 11:21 PM   #59
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Your exact words in your first post were "MOS wasn't a failure in any capacity."

You didn't just say financial capacity... you said ANY capacity.

Unless of course that was translation for "My opinion of the movie is the only opinion that matters hence forth it wasn't a failure".

But we both know that isn't true since you brought up the box office numbers.

Yeah, and? It wasn't a financial failure, a critical failure, or a failure on DVD. Hence, that statement. It wasn't a failure because some people didn't like it. It may have failed to do what you wanted, but amongst people en mass, it didn't fail. It did decently. That's what I mean by any capacity: financial, critical, DVD for people en mass ( as in a large group, a collective). Everyone doesn't have to like it for it to avoid the failure category.

What I said isn't a translation for anything except this:

Do not tell me what I think. I liked the move and I'm not kidding anyone.

You didn't like it and that's fine. But it does not mean that a movie that made 660 million, got mixed receives, is rated decently on some fan sites like imdb, and sold decently on DVD is a failure.


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Old 01-26-2014, 01:49 AM   #60
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Yeah, and? It wasn't a financial failure, a critical failure, or a failure on DVD. Hence, that statement. It wasn't a failure because some people didn't like it. It may have failed to do what you wanted, but amongst people en mass, it didn't fail. It did decently. That's what I mean by any capacity: financial, critical, DVD for people en mass ( as in a large group, a collective). Everyone doesn't have to like it for it to avoid the failure category.

What I said isn't a translation for anything except this:

Do not tell me what I think. I liked the move and I'm not kidding anyone.

You didn't like it and that's fine. But it does not mean that a movie that made 660 million, got mixed receives, is rated decently on some fan sites like imdb, and sold decently on DVD is a failure.

Sooooooooooo.....back to the OP, which do you prefer MOS or SMTM ? (or potentially hold them in equal regard, as some posters have pointed out ) and why ?


cheers,


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Old 01-26-2014, 02:02 AM   #61
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Sooooooooooo.....back to the OP, which do you prefer MOS or SMTM ? (or potentially hold them in equal regard, as some posters have pointed out ) and why ?


cheers,

I prefer Mos.

I'm sure SMTM made quite an impact in its day and Reeve was great. But I find his movies too dated and campy nowadays. I want to see real consequences and tough decisions being made by a man with the world on his shoulders, rather than random solutions that just happen to suit the situation.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:24 AM   #62
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

I think we all might agree that MOS lacks of one important thing:-
superman hasn't been properly introduced to the public in the movie and we has no idea about their reaction.

Unlike in STM, they were wowed, amazed n instantly embraced him with open arms. The audiences can relate to them and share the joy and happiness.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:31 AM   #63
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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I think we all might agree that MOS lacks of one important thing:-
superman hasn't been properly introduced to the public in the movie and we has no idea about their reaction.

Unlike in STM, they were wowed, amazed n instantly embraced him with open arms. The audiences can relate to them and share the joy and happiness.
I sort of agree. I do think we need to see more public reaction to superman.

But the public in both SMTM and SR felt very artificial to me. They were just too welcoming or something, especially in SR after superman had left them. They didn't feel real.

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Old 01-26-2014, 03:16 AM   #64
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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I sort of agree. I do think we need to see more public reaction to superman.

But the public in both SMTM and SR felt very artificial to me. They were just too welcoming or something, especially in SR after superman had left them. They didn't feel real.
The wider public reaction was the one thing that was glaringly missing
from MOS. Maybe Snyder did that on purpose, hopefully future films
will address it.

As for SMTM, the whole introduction of Superman was handled very differently - while Lois Lane publishes a story about him in both versions,
in MOS it's an underground web campaign, vs SMTM it was front page news after an exclusive interview.


So, in SMTM, he had the benefit of public opinion, and a positive PR campaign by Lois and the Planet, before he had to deal with other Kryptonians.

Even then, when Zod shows up, the people of Metropolis are
clearly on Superman's side because he's been around for a couple of years, saving people and getting cats out of trees, and stopping renegade nuclear missiles. So people feel a real sense of ownership of him (kind of like in the first Spider Man film, where the New Yorkers start throwing stuff at GG, when he's attacking Spidey on the bridge, of course if it was real life, they'd all have had guns, and would have popped a cap in GG's ass).

I can understand though, why you'd find that a bit unrealistic - but also, in SMTM Superman actually goes out to find Lois and tell her his story, whereas Amy Adams' Lois has to track Clark down. I agree that the way MOS handles the situation probably makes more sense in today's world.

BTW Let's not even go near Superman returns, I put a fair bit of effort into pretending that film never happened.


MOS took a very different approach to Superman's unveiling, even when Lois's story goes viral, he's still really just an unsubstantiated urban legend.

The key difference was the arrival of Zod. In SMTM there's no follow up of an apocalyptic invasion by renegade Kryptonians (well not at least until Superman II), but in MOS the Kryptonians show up right away, and it's Zod who "outs" Kal El.

Where I was going with all this, as someone who loves both films, is that I think it worked well in both movies....except maybe MOS didn't follow it up as well (although SMTM didn't really need to).



MoS is going to have to deal with a very different dynamic, as Superman will have to deal with the background of Zod's actions. I agree with those people who have suggested that a scene of Superman helping clean up
would have fit in well.

I'm really interested in seeing how they deal with that (at the very least I hope they don't ignore it). To be honest, I'm hoping they tie that in with Luthor's motivations, that he capitalizes on distrust of Superman.


On another note. You're right that the older Superman movies do have a campy feel, although of all of them, the first one is the best IMO, it dates better, I think, because Superman only deals with human adversaries.
Zod and co are fun, but really OTT in Superman II (and its effects haven't dated as well, I mean the Battle of Smallville puts the old Battle of Metropolis to shame - having said that it was awesome for 1980).

It's funny, something a previous poster said about SMTM standing out, in its time, whereas MOS didn't (which I disagree with ) something they missed out on was that in 1978 Superman was the first Superhero (since Batman back in the late 60's) to appear on the big screen. So of course it stood out, because really there were NO other Superhero films, and nothing on the scale, budget or scope of SMTM, so of course it stood out.

sorry, that didn't have anything to do with your post.

Anyway, fair call, I respect your opinion. Just a question, did you see SMTM as a child or were you a bit older ?

The reason I ask is that most people, myself included who saw SMTM as kids have very fond memories of it, and don't seem to have any problems with the campy style. Maybe those who see it when they're a bit older
find that stuff a bit less easy to swallow. I went away and watched SMTM, after seeing MOS, and still absolutely loved it.

One possible exception is that Christopher Reeve is such a likeable Superman -Cavill's great, but hasn't had the influence that Reeve had, I mean Brandon Routh was cast as Superman, because he looked a bit like Reeve. Of course Cavill was cast because he looks like Superman, that bit when he first comes out in the suit gives me shivers, it's like Superman just walked out of the comic and onto the screen.

Having said that, I saw MOS as an adult, and yet, coming out of the cinema felt the same thrill I did as an 8 year old coming out of SMTM.
For me, that's the number 1 reason that MOS was great - you can scrutinze
, deconstruct or do whatever kind of analysis of the film, but that feeling
alone makes it great, IMO, if a movie makes you feel genuinely like a kid again, then it's got to be great. I kind of feel sorry for people who didn't get the same thrill.


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Old 01-26-2014, 06:49 AM   #65
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I sort of agree. I do think we need to see more public reaction to superman.

But the public in both SMTM and SR felt very artificial to me. They were just too welcoming or something, especially in SR after superman had left them. They didn't feel real.
let's not bring in SR here.

artificial or not, it doesn't matter. STM showed the public reaction. we, the audiences were joyfully cheering with them.

in MOS, i was very nervous most of the time.

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Old 01-26-2014, 08:37 AM   #66
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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let's not bring in SR here.

artificial or not, it doesn't matter. STM showed the public reaction. we, the audiences were joyfully cheering with them.

in MOS, i was very nervous most of the time.
That's my point, I wasn't cheering with them because I found them artificial and weird.

But anyways, I do want to see public reaction to superman in the mos universe, I just want the public to be realistic. There would be mixed reactions to this alien. And the attitudes would change over time.

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Old 01-26-2014, 11:31 AM   #67
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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let's not bring in SR here.

artificial or not, it doesn't matter. STM showed the public reaction. we, the audiences were joyfully cheering with them.

in MOS, i was very nervous most of the time.
I love how the world has become so cynical that the idea of people embracing a man who comes out of nowhere, miraculously saving a woman from falling while preventing a helicopter crash is now considered "Artificial" or "unrealistic".

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It's funny, something a previous poster said about SMTM standing out, in its time, whereas MOS didn't (which I disagree with ) something they missed out on was that in 1978 Superman was the first Superhero (since Batman back in the late 60's) to appear on the big screen. So of course it stood out, because really there were NO other Superhero films, and nothing on the scale, budget or scope of SMTM, so of course it stood out.
Um, no. I did not miss out on anything.

I love how MOS defenders constantly try to undermine STM to justify their love for MOS. Its not enough for some people to just like MOS. It really bugs some that STM is still loved more in some quarters.

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Old 01-26-2014, 11:31 AM   #68
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

And I feel that when we do see the public cheering for Supes it will be much more meaningful. He will have genuinely earned thier trust.

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Old 01-26-2014, 12:01 PM   #69
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There seems to be a need by fans of both films to diminish the credibility of one to increase the credibility of the other.

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Old 01-26-2014, 12:22 PM   #70
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I sort of agree. I do think we need to see more public reaction to superman.

But the public in both SMTM and SR felt very artificial to me. They were just too welcoming or something, especially in SR after superman had left them. They didn't feel real.
Oh, I know. This man comes, flies and saves everyone... and they clap and cheer??? Unrealistic!!!

People should have gone "Look! He's trying to kidnap Lois Lane as she falls from the helicopter! And now he's stealing the helicopter!" and "Booo! You saved us all from the falling plane, but you went to Krypton, so we don't care!" Alas. Where's the realism these days. Spider-man-ize Superman at once!

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:42 PM   #71
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

I'm watching STM right now ironically. This is a great movie, but I don't really want to rank it against MOS. For me STM is the better movie, but they are both excellent movies. The scenes between Jonathon and Clark in both movies are moving and very similar. I don't get the hate MOS gets, but I understand the complaints. I just don't think those complaints/nitpicks warrant such vociferous hate.

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I've heard so many people talk about how Superman would kill Lois if they ever had sex, but I've never heard someone make this point before and it's brilliant. If Superman's bodily fluids are so dangerous, then he'd have to use a kryptonite toilet every time he takes a dump.
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Old 01-26-2014, 03:07 PM   #72
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Um, no. I did not miss out on anything.

I love how MOS defenders constantly try to undermine STM to justify their love for MOS. Its not enough for some people to just like MOS. It really bugs some that STM is still loved more in some quarters.

First, I'm not trying to undermine SMTM, it's awesome today, and was awesome back in 1978.

Second, People are entitled to their opinions, that's the whole point of this thread. If someone likes MOS better than STM and points out bits of STM that they felt were inferior, which explains why they prefer MOS, quite frankly they're entitled to do that, and I started this thread to hear different points of view.

Strangely, nobody seems to berate those who say that they prefer STM and point out MOS' weaknesses to explain that opinion. Personally, I still think STM has one of the weakest resolutions to it's crisis point in any superhero movie, ever - but I still enjoy the movie, and have no problem with anyone who prefers it over MOS.

If you have that much of a problem with people's opinions, you shouldn't trouble yourself by reading this thread.

Third, in respect of you missing something, I suspect you have.
This is what you said:

Quote:

And that is one of the reasons why this movie is not and probably wont be as well regarded as STM. You look at the kind of films being made in the 70's, and Superman stands out. As for MOS....
Again, Superman the movie stands out, because.....there were no other superhero films being made in the 1970's. As far as campy action films, there were plenty.

Quote:

"Realistic" superheroes with dark color palettes? Saw that in The Dark Knight films, along with the non linear origin story.

Alien Invasions with epic fight scenes? You can See that in "The Avengers" and "Transformers".

Another brooding hero who feels isolated and is burdened with responsibility. That's basically every 21st Century Superhero.

MOS may stand out among Superman films, but in the current, competitive climate? IMO, not really. It wasn't exceptional in the same way STM was, or the way "The Dark Knight" and "The Avengers" are. But we won't ever know how successful MOS really was since Superman isnt getting a follow up solo flick.
Again, you completely undermine your own point there by stating that MOS has a whole bunch of competition, which do similar things.
STM is certainly an exceptional film, precisely because there were no other superhero films to compare it to, and it was the first appearance of Superman on screen.

Also, the "Dark Knight" analogy is a flawed one as well, Dark Knight stood out because it was a brilliantly made and acted film, but it too reflected on current trends in superhero cinema. It didn't stand out because it was doing something radically different (in fact it covered well-used ground in terms of story) and the more realistic tone of superhero films had been steadily increasing, even since the first Spider Man and Xmen films.

So saying MOS isn't exceptional because its doing things other superhero films are doing, isn't really that valid an argument.
Saying its not exceptional due to weaknesses in story, acting or execution, now that would be a fair point.

Also, I don't think your point that MOS isn't an exceptional film because it features epic fight scenes and alien invasions. Again, because epic fight scenes and alien invasions are part of the genre. Second, the alien invasion is a classic Superman story-line, (seen Superman II ?) and doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to those depicted in Avengers or Transformers.

Back to STM for a moment, and what made it exceptional.
Now I would go one further to say it was exceptional because it was a great movie, compared to other movies made at that time as a whole, in terms of its production values, its acting and because it jump started a new genre of cinema- the Super-hero film (because, again the superhero film genre didn't really exist. Okay, there was the Batman film from the late 1960's and the Saturday serials but these don't begin to compare to STM in terms of scope - in fact STM is much more serious and realistic than the 60's Batman movie, interesting how that trend continued ).

Also, there was an enthralling performance from Christopher Reeve (RIP) as the Man of Steel, so much so that no matter how rubbish the films became (Quest for Peace !) he was still great, and no one could detract from his portrayal of Krypton's last son.

STM has gone one to become, IMO, a timeless classic (even though I don't like the end) and a crtical consensus backs that up. Will MOS achieve that ? Probably not, although for me personally, it's gone into my list of favourites.

I can't really argue in favour of Avengers, because to me that was a bit of a bland film, with zero character development -great set pieces but not really that engaging. But that's just my opinion. However, I still found it tremendous fun and a good superhero film - but not destined to become a timeless classic.

I've already stated why the Dark Knight was such an exceptional film. Nolan might have taken the trend a bit further but not to
an extreme place, it was the overall package of the film, the production quality, visuals, and of course the performances (Bale as a solid Batman, and Ledger as a mesmerizing Joker) that make this film stand out.
It's not doing anything that different from other Batman films, or superhero films, but what it is doing, it does brilliantly.

So, your argument that MOS doesn't stand out the way STM did, and using a comparison with other superhero films, is a fundamentally flawed argument.

Saying STM stands out because it's objectively a great film, compared with all other films made at that time, now that has some traction, and I would agree with you there.

However, going back to comparing MOS with other current superhero films:

- In terms of heroes being burdened with responsibility or feeling isolated....well that's not just 21st century superheroes, that's part of the entire genre, since it started (Spider Man 1963, With great power comes......you know the rest).

You are correct in saying that it reflects current trends in Superhero cinema, particularly in that it adopts a darker palette and a more serious tone, and strives for an increasing sense of realism - or at least a more effective blending of fantastical and realistic elements. Perhaps it would have, stood out if it had been a musical comedy, with dance numbers?

Sorry, that was unnecessary sarcasm. Anyway, does MOS stand out from
contemporary superhero films, in bucking current trends, no -which makes sense as I suggest that 21st century audiences have different sensibilities than 1978 audiences.

But the real question, is it better than other superhero movies of today or movies today as a whole ?
If you go by the lack of critical consensus, no. (I don't put much faith in the box office myself, as I thought Iron Man 3 complete garbage compared to Avengers, yet IM 3 did nearly as well).

However, on a personal level that does come down to opinion. For me, I vastly preferred it to Avengers (which I still enjoyed) and put it on the same level as the first Iron Man, and the Dark Knight. But that's just my opinion.

At the end of the day, if you prefer STM, more power to you. I would love to hear why, not to argue about it, but because I respect the opinions of others.

However, if you're just keen to slag off people who enjoyed MOS or belittle their opinions, go start a thread for that.

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Old 01-26-2014, 03:30 PM   #73
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

On Man of Steel been exceptional it most certainly was. I have never ever seen a film with the action this movie has, its unprecedented. Nothing I have seen has come close to this level, it makes films like Avengers and Transformers seem small in scale.

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Old 01-26-2014, 03:32 PM   #74
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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On Man of Steel been exceptional it most certainly was. I have never ever seen a film with the action this movie has, its unprecedented. Nothing I have seen has come close to this level, it makes films like Avengers and Transformers seem small in scale.
So true, I've recently re-watched TA to compare the action, and MoS just shuts it down completely. Watching it for the first time, I was in Heaven when I saw what the true scope of the action was.

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Old 01-26-2014, 04:58 PM   #75
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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On Man of Steel been exceptional it most certainly was. I have never ever seen a film with the action this movie has, its unprecedented. Nothing I have seen has come close to this level, it makes films like Avengers and Transformers seem small in scale.

Exceptional is a big word and probably means something a little bit different to everyone.

I have to agree with you that the scope of the action in MOS was staggering. I still believe that the Battle of Smallville has been the best
super-hero on super-villain fight ever (there's a thread for that sort of thing over in Misc comic films), there was a lot of destruction in that sequence, but so much of the action was up-close and personal, and of course brutal.

I think it is arguable that MOS is exceptional in terms of the scope of the carnage of the last act ( personally, that worked for me, and although some complain about it, the final fight between Zod and Supes doesn't actually last that long). It's true that there's an insane amount of destruction compared to Avengers - again, personally that worked for me, because IMO when Superman gets involved the stakes have to be pretty big...which is why it's a "job for Superman !"
So, there are definitely some exceptional elements to the movie.

However, I suspect some of the other posters are suggesting exceptional in a different sense, more in terms of the total package of the film and
its reception by the world at large.

When SMTM came out in 1978, it was like Star Wars all over again ( because SW came out the year before, and I can't begin to describe the impact in cinema that Star Wars had, it was a phenomenon). Given the regard its held in by fans and critics alike, its highly arguable that SMTM is a great film, not just a great superhero film, but a great film period.

SMTM is exceptional because it stands out from films in general. MOS hasn't received the same kind of response. Personally, I still think it's a great film - and it certainly improves on a few things from SMTM, but that's my opinion. In some ways I actually prefer MOS's characterization of Superman, less of a boy-scout and more of a regular guy (he drinks beer and watches NFL !).

So, while I don't agree with some of the explanations, I think that saying MOS isn't an exceptional film, compared to films in general, or that it won't have the impact that SMTM had, might be a fair comment.

Again, on a personal level, I loved it - particularly the choice about the ending, Superman doesn't get an easy way out, I'll just fly around the world and turn back time. No, instead he has to make a difficult and terrible decision, but one that's totally necessary, and no doubt he has to live with the consequences.

So, for me MOS was an exceptional film, one that restored and improved the glory of Superman, but I can accept that it probably won't have the same degree of impact as SMTM to the greater public.

However, if you feel it was an exceptional film, then who am I to argue with you ? Let's hope that all the things we enjoyed about MOS are done as well, if not even better in Superman's next movie appearance.

peace out Super-fans.

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