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Old 01-26-2014, 01:01 PM   #951
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Agree on all counts. That's where a script polisher comes in. It's why I hope someone like Terrio *is* involved with BvS so they can add some much needed connective tissue to Goyer's ideas that many times don't fit cohesively together.

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:12 PM   #952
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Absolutely. The music comparison is pitch perfect. Personally I'd love to see what Stephen Gaghan could add to a Goyer script in terms of dialogue and detail.

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:24 PM   #953
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ironically, I had more of a problem with Clark stealing those clothes up in Alaska or wherever he was than him killing Zod.......lol.

it's more an "honor" thing.

also, Clark not saving his dad in the tornado.

yeah......I understood what they're going for........but.........that scene still bothers me........

and I guess that all comes down to the writing and the script??

they could have tweaked or written a few of the scenes differently and achieved a much better, and more "unifying", outcome.

like, during the final battle, they could have written a scene where there's a pause in the action, and Superman stops to reflect on all the damage and loss of life, and show that really pains and angers him.

or, there could have been a scene where Zod throws one of those tanker trucks or causes a building to collapse, and its going to crush a bunch of civilians, but then Superman swoops in to stop it. and you have that "heroic" moment and a chance to show how the public would react to Superman saving them.

and we really didn't get that.

even with the family at the end about to be zapped by Zod's heat vision, you really didn't see their reaction afterwards towards being saved by Superman.
We did get that. When Zod gave his whole "I'm going to kill all of the humans just to cause you pain" speech, Superman got really angry, called Zod a monster, and vowed to stop him. Also, during the Smallville fight, Superman DID break away from fighting the Kryptonians to save that soldier who fell out of the helicopter, and he immediately got sucker punched from behind by Nam-ek for his troubles, so we now how that goes. He breaks away to stop a building from falling and one of two things happens:
1. Zod attacks him while he's distracted.
2. Zod uses the respite to kill even more people, since that was his ONLY goal at the time.

I think that Superman's actions are completely justifiable given what was presented in the movie. It's not a question of bad writing, it's a question of some people having "taste issues" with this version. Those are not the same thing.

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:27 PM   #954
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We did get that. When Zod gave his whole "I'm going to kill all of the humans just to cause you pain" speech, Superman got really angry, called Zod a monster, and vowed to stop him. Also, during the Smallville fight, Superman DID break away from fighting the Kryptonians to save that soldier who fell out of the helicopter, and he immediately got sucker punched from behind by Nam-ek for his troubles, so we now how that goes. He breaks away to stop a building from falling and one of two things happens:
1. Zod attacks him while he's distracted.
2. Zod uses the respite to kill even more people, since that was his ONLY goal at the time.

I think that Superman's actions are completely justifiable given what was presented in the movie. It's not a question of bad writing, it's a question of some people having "taste issues" with this version. Those are not the same thing.
Exactly. He has to take out the threat and then focus on saving people.

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:33 PM   #955
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There's a difference between being a contrarian like Armond White and pulling grievances out of thin air for critically acclaimed films and being someone who found flaws in a polarizing movie. It's tiring seeing anyone who brings up stuff about MOS being blamed for "taste issues" or "not getting it." People are so defensive about this movie.

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Old 01-26-2014, 01:54 PM   #956
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and I'm not saying Superman's actions weren't justified. Overall, I liked what we got.

But, on subsequent viewings and further reflections, I actually find myself enjoying the film a bit less each time. Not hating it like I do with SR, but just wishing they could have done a few things differently.

And I've been watching some other forms of Superman, like episodes of Lois and Clark or even the original Superman movies. I do feel that some of the "charm" from those portrayals of Superman was missing from MOS. It could have benefited with a bit more light heartedness.

And it's not because I consider it "flawed." But moreso because it lacks that extra bit of "polish."

As Poni Boy said above, a script editor or polisher would have been beneficial. The overall structure was there, but there were some rough edges that could have been refined, tweaked, rewritten, etc.

And ultimately, it does come down to the writers and creators of the story.

They wrote it so that Superman was forced to kill Zod. They could have written a totally different outcome.

They wrote it so that Jonathan died that way in the tornado. They could have written that scene differently.

They wrote it so that Clark had to steal the clothes after the oil rig explosion. They could have written that differently, too.

And, that's their choice and their right to do so. And they have to live by the choices they made.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:02 PM   #957
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and I'm not saying Superman's actions weren't justified. Overall, I liked what we got.

But, on subsequent viewings and further reflections, I actually find myself enjoying the film a bit less each time. Not hating it like I do with SR, but just wishing they could have done a few things differently.

And I've been watching some other forms of Superman, like episodes of Lois and Clark or even the original Superman movies. I do feel that some of the "charm" from those portrayals of Superman was missing from MOS. It could have benefited with a bit more light heartedness.

And it's not because I consider it "flawed." But moreso because it lacks that extra bit of "polish."

As Poni Boy said above, a script editor or polisher would have been beneficial. The overall structure was there, but there were some rough edges that could have been refined, tweaked, rewritten, etc.

And ultimately, it does come down to the writers and creators of the story.

They wrote it so that Superman was forced to kill Zod. They could have written a totally different outcome.

They wrote it so that Jonathan died that way in the tornado. They could have written that scene differently.

They wrote it so that Clark had to steal the clothes after the oil rig explosion. They could have written that differently, too.

And, that's their choice and their right to do so. And they have to live by the choices they made.



This! If only Terrio's allowed to edit entire CHUNKS of the script. That would probably end up being better than what we had in the first film.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:10 PM   #958
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They wrote it so that Superman was forced to kill Zod. They could have written a totally different outcome.

They wrote it so that Jonathan died that way in the tornado. They could have written that scene differently.

They wrote it so that Clark had to steal the clothes after the oil rig explosion. They could have written that differently, too.
Exaaaactly. Everything included in a movie is a conscious decision by the filmmakers. For me it's the opposite of seeing the forest for the trees.

"We need to put him in the suit at the x-minute mark" ..ok but how? Was it a grand, earned moment in the film or just a segway between scenes?

Stuff like him destroying that guy's truck, stealing those clothes, destroying that drone, condensing the ending with minor reflection of damage are things that a good script doctor would bring up and say "is there a better way to get from A - Z"

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:11 PM   #959
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You had to go one better didn't you?
Hehe, what can i say...It was worth two thumbs up!

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:12 PM   #960
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and I'm not saying Superman's actions weren't justified. Overall, I liked what we got.

But, on subsequent viewings and further reflections, I actually find myself enjoying the film a bit less each time. Not hating it like I do with SR, but just wishing they could have done a few things differently.

And I've been watching some other forms of Superman, like episodes of Lois and Clark or even the original Superman movies. I do feel that some of the "charm" from those portrayals of Superman was missing from MOS. It could have benefited with a bit more light heartedness.

And it's not because I consider it "flawed." But moreso because it lacks that extra bit of "polish."

As Poni Boy said above, a script editor or polisher would have been beneficial. The overall structure was there, but there were some rough edges that could have been refined, tweaked, rewritten, etc.

And ultimately, it does come down to the writers and creators of the story.

They wrote it so that Superman was forced to kill Zod. They could have written a totally different outcome.

They wrote it so that Jonathan died that way in the tornado. They could have written that scene differently.

They wrote it so that Clark had to steal the clothes after the oil rig explosion. They could have written that differently, too.

And, that's their choice and their right to do so. And they have to live by the choices they made.
But why should they write it safe? They wanted to do something different and I'm glad they did. You play it safe you get Marvel movies, decent, fun but not really long lasting in the memory.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:25 PM   #961
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There's a difference between being a contrarian like Armond White and pulling grievances out of thin air for critically acclaimed films and being someone who found flaws in a polarizing movie. It's tiring seeing anyone who brings up stuff about MOS being blamed for "taste issues" or "not getting it." People are so defensive about this movie.
And people are also so critical of it, it goes both ways.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:29 PM   #962
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But why should they write it safe? They wanted to do something different and I'm glad they did. You play it safe you get Marvel movies, decent, fun but not really long lasting in the memory.
Because it's an ORIGIN. The origin is where audiences are supposed to get attached to the characters, and if the main character makes too many negative decisions, the image of him/her will be tainted for films to come.

MOS2 has to not only do "damage control" for MOS, but be a solid ENOUGH sequel that involves Batman and Wonder-Woman (without feeling like a blantant JL prequel)

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:29 PM   #963
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They wrote it so that Clark had to steal the clothes after the oil rig explosion. They could have written that differently, too.



I feel almost speechless when I hear this criticism. It's beyond stupid.

The dude grabbed some clean clothes after his other clothes burned off and became soaking wet after he saved several people from a collapsing oil rig. Rather than walk around half naked and attract attention to himself, he took clothes he saw. Yes, they were someone else's clothes. Yes, that is technically stealing, but we're not talking about Superman here. We're talking about a Clark Kent who was wandering around the country, using fake names and trying to stay hidden, not knowing what to make of himself. This was before he discovered his heritage and before he knew what his purpose as Superman was.

I think it's more believable that Clark didn't have a "6th sense" of goodness from birth that prevented him from ever doing anything wrong in his life. Remember, he was raised by humans as a human...amongst humans. Humans make mistakes and aren't always on the straight and narrow. Yes, his parents were good people, but even kids raised by good parents will make mistakes in life (shoplifting, bullying, vandalism, etc). Even Clark destroying that douchebag's 18-wheeler is acceptable to me. Yes, his father taught him to avoid confrontations, but that doesn't mean Clark didn't want to retaliate in some way or get some personal satisfaction out of messing with a guy who had just dumped beer on his head for no reason at all. And again, that was before he knew he was essential a god among men and a symbol for hope and all that jazz.

An important theme of MOS, to me, is Clark's transformation from one of us to something greater. This is something that Donner's Superman didn't really explore, so I was glad that we got to see something new in MOS.

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Old 01-26-2014, 02:29 PM   #964
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