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Old 01-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #76
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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Yup.
Then how do people here think it has divided people?

There are other CBMs that get the odd bashing (MOS,TASM,IM3) but they are still well liked by the GA and Fans.

Just because there is a vocal minority doesn't mean the movie has divided people.

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Old 01-30-2014, 11:11 AM   #77
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Because they live in a fantasy.

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Old 01-30-2014, 12:50 PM   #78
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It has divided the Batman fanbase. No **** we just mean the fanbase. On a comic book site full of Batman fans, that should go without saying whenever we claim a CBM divides people (unless stated otherwise). I don't understand why some TDKR fans feel the need to point that out.

You think we will react like this...


...when we actually react like this:


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Old 01-30-2014, 02:46 PM   #79
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And that's not even taking into account how the general audiences might feel now, two years later.

Are these gauges of audience interest really accurate to how EVERYONE feels? Does how everyone feel even depend on (like you stated Shika), all these fan base communities? It's funny how this system of "interest counting" is like a double edged sword. Let's say Green Goblin and Shauner are right. The majority thinks that TDKR is a "GREAT, GREAT FILM", what if in reality, two years later, that view with the populace has changed? How can I see those statistics other than the dated numbers from 4 years ago? How do we know it's not just "the Batman fan base"? Couldn't the Batman fan base include a lot of the majority? Who constitutes as fans?


Avengers made more money and has a better score than TDKR. Does that mean that the majority of people prefer or more people like the Avengers? The Dark Knight seems to be perceived as being better than TDKR, does that mean the majority thinks Dark Knight is better than TDKR? Why are we even concerned about other groups that may or may like something in our own backyard? What separates a person from being a fan to liking the film? Do their views somehow negate the opinion of us that dislike it? Our are criticisms less valid? It doesn't make any damn sense to me. Let's say TDKR had less than favorable scores all across the board. What would the "majority" be? How do I count it? Are these sites that take this into account accurate? How can I be sure they are? How about the people that don't contribute online, where do they stand? Do we lump them into the people that "hate it", "love it", or "don't care"? What about people that felt something was mediocre and it gets counted as "positive" or "great"? What if there's a user on IMDB voting things down to put things up several times?

I'm not sure how this works or why majorities and minorities are even brought up. Just seems like an example to try and belittle those that have opposing opinions to me. I think it's impossible to gauge what the true consensus is when it comes to a movie.


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Old 01-30-2014, 03:27 PM   #80
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Fantastic post, milost.

I want to especially put emphasis on this:

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What about people that felt something was mediocre and it gets counted as "positive" or "great"?
That question further complexes the "majority liked it" defense even more. A positive review can range anyone from "This is the greatest thing since sliced bread" to "yeah, it was ok". How do we know the "majority" didn't think that film was just "kinda cool"?

As you pointed out, the same logic can be extended and applied to all other films. Going by the same samples that determine the "majority" opinion (RT scores, IMDB, etc.), The Avengers is objectively better than TDKR and the Bayformers are objectively good films. You cannot argue with those "facts" if you go by that logic.

Heck, we can take that a step further. The "majority" can never be wrong? How about when racism and sexism were the norm? How about when the belief the Earth was flat was the norm? When witch trials were the norm? Now, I am not saying that liking TDKR is anywhere as bad as those things (because it is obviously nowhere close). However, all these things stem from a very primitive mindset of "the majority is right", with things like "Dini/Morrison liked TDKR" being modern versions of "the wise elder in the village said that you're a witch so you're a witch". Again, I am not saying Shauner is as bad as witch hunters, because he is obviously not. The point is that we should all progress and work to grow out of that mindset, regardless of how large or small it is present in someone.


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Old 01-30-2014, 03:36 PM   #81
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Thanks.

And Ouch. Yeah, you pretty much just killed the "majority argument" there. Good work.

I never even thought of beliefs and major issues (not something as small and pointless as "dis Batman movie is teh great" or "it sucks") in our own history. Those issues are extreme, but great examples nonetheless. I completely agree. But yeah, hopefully that shuts people up. I hated when Anno would constantly jump in and say, "the naysayers' opinions don't matter because they're the minority and the majority loves the film" because there's just no base to it. Now that argument is rearing it's ugly head yet again.

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Old 01-30-2014, 03:54 PM   #82
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Plus, what exactly would you say to a misanthrope that disliked TDKR? You tell him/her "the majority liked it" and he/she would say "See? Told you it was bad" . Thus it is also an argument which assumes that opinions on the "majority" don't differ from individual to individual. They do.

I see it as a desperation argument for when there is no argument on one particular side. It used to really annoy me whenever I saw it being used, but I've kinda gotten used to it by now. Having spent some time within YouTube anime communities between 2006 and 2010, it is an argument I have witnessed many times and in far larger doses, to the point that it makes Anno's use of it seem like nothing .

It is also a very risky argument to use. I have seen cases in the past of people using it only for solid evidence to come out that shows what the "majority" really thought. What do you do after that? Because by bringing in that logic in the first place, you have stripped the film/show/whatever of all of its defenses. The "majority argument" is pretty much the only defense you have left. Once it gets disproven (if it can be disproven), you have no defense left. You've essentially replaced all of the film's merits that could be used as defences with a single defense that is very flawed in the first place. That is why someone defending TDKR by citing the film's positives (such as BLR) would get much closer to changing people's minds and to an "objective opinion" than someone who just says "the majority liked it so it is good".

And to be fair, I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Shauner. Everyone has used the majority argument at some point in their lives. Some in more extreme cases, others in not-so-extreme ones. It is built into our instincts to a certain degree to fall back on it, but that doesn't mean we have to fall back on it. Especially in this day and age.


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Old 01-30-2014, 04:19 PM   #83
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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It has divided the Batman fanbase. No **** we just mean the fanbase. On a comic book site full of Batman fans, that should go without saying whenever we claim a CBM divides people (unless stated otherwise). I don't understand why some TDKR fans feel the need to point that out.

You think we will react like this...


...when we actually react like this:
Ahem...Look at the name of the thread.

Of course, we are going to take into public consideration of the film when we talk about its reputation and legacy, not just what fans say. But you're right, some fans will always hate it. And if you wish, I can find you some fans who hate the Jaws movie because Speilberg changed the ending. Doesn't really change that movie's place in film history, now does it?

Just saying.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:38 PM   #84
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Jaws movie sucks - 1 (other that first article, it's all sequel hate)

TDKR sucks - 50+ (I stopped at page 5, pointless to keep going when I know how far it goes. That's just for 2012 too)


Can't say I see a lot of criticisms found for Jaws. Yeah, there's some, there's bound to be people that don't like it. It's not nearly as numerous and talked about as TDKR though. You know what TDKR has in these articles that a lot of other movies don't? Topics that question it's quality head on. IMDB, youtube, yahoo, message boards, there's always the big question "do you think it isn't as good as people make it out to be?" and I see the same arguments that go on in here. Almost a 50/50 split. Look at this very thread. It's a question of if it will be perceived better in the future. What the hell does that mean if it's just sooooo great?

The majority and minority argument just doesn't work. Period.


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Old 01-30-2014, 04:43 PM   #85
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

For the record milost I found TDKR disappointing and this is comming from a guy who loves the first two.

Your absolutly right. RT is not 100% accurate for how the GA feels about it (if you think about it Joe Bloggs doesn't rate films on it).

All I'm saying is looking at the evidence (I don't see IMDb as reliable, look at the message boards) alot love this film. It's impossible to know if it will stand the test of time but I see no evidence that the general concensus will change anytime soon.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:46 PM   #86
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Well then, we're on the same exact page. I feel exactly as you do. Sorry if it seemed like I lumped you in there, that wasn't my intent. No worries.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:48 PM   #87
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It's a 50/50 split?

That is why it is the only other superhero movie besides The Dark Knight to be ranked on critics' Top 10 lists, been praised by filmmakers' whose opinions are valued much more highly than we lowly message board posters, made $1 billion WW, has an A CinemaScore from the audience, and nearly 90% positive reviews from critics.

Yes, popularity doesn't mean you have to like it. However, this 50/50 split is utter ********. You get more articles, because it came out a little over a year ago and fans have been picking at it ever since.

The point is that it is not a split. There is a very, very loud minority out there. However, that does not make this SM3. I am honestly kind of surprised that you do not realize that you are in a minority. Which is fine, I'm in the minority for thinking Avatar is a mediocre techno demo with an insipid screenplay. But I'm also not going to pretend that it didn't make $2 billion, was well received by critics, was nominated for Best Picture and Best Director at the Academy Awards, and is still vastly loved by a majority of filmgoers to this day. Earning it an everlasting spot in film history, for better or worse.

And yes, in a thread like this, we are talking about majority opinions and perceptions.

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:00 PM   #88
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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It's a 50/50 split?

That is why it is the only other superhero movie besides The Dark Knight to be ranked on critics' Top 10 lists, been praised by filmmakers' whose opinions are valued much more highly than we lowly message board posters, made $1 billion WW, has an A CinemaScore from the audience, and nearly 90% positive reviews from critics.
I don't think he's saying there's a 50/50 split but he's arguing that it's not as popular to the GA as you'd think.

What makes certain filmmakers more important than ours? If the likes of QT, Donner and Raimi think Superman Returns is good does that mean that the fan community are wrong?

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:07 PM   #89
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It certainly makes me consider the film more closely. While technically all opinions are equal in the legal sense, perspectives from the experienced can often shed new light or illuminate something in a way previous unexplored.

For example, I disagree with Tarantino's opinion on Big Bad Wolves, but his recommendation got me to see the movie, and I find his opinion insightful and an interesting way to look at the film, which I found even broadens my understanding of the serial killer subgenre. Albeit, I still found that movie to be morally bleak to the point of repulsion.

And yes, I take stock in what Steven Spielberg, Paul Thomas Anderson, and Paul Thomas Anderson say in the sense that it causes me to evaluate a movie like this more than if an imdb poster says that it sucks.

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:08 PM   #90
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Yes it's a 50/50 split.

That is why it is the only other superhero movie besides The Dark Knight to be ranked on critics' Top 10 lists, been praised by filmmakers' whose opinions are valued much more highly than we lowly message board posters, made $1 billion WW, has an A CinemaScore from the audience, and nearly 90% positive reviews from critics.

Filmmakers make up the majority of film audiences? Maaan, I had no idea.

So, as individuals, does Rian Johnson's opinion that "TDKR is great" equal 1,000 people, while I, the lowly, message board dwelling milost earn 0.5 persons? How does the tally scores work?

Besides, how many filmmakers (other than Wally Pfister or Spike Lee) blast other people's films? Pretty much zero. What person in the business is going to say, "**** Nolan, I hated TDKR, what a disappointment". Probably none. You never know who you might work with in the future, stepping on people's toes isn't going to get you there. I don't see anyone in the business really blasting Michael Bay, right? That's only "the fans".

As a filmmaker, actor, or someone involved in the process, you either say you're a fan and like the work or you keep your mouth shut. People don't want bad blood, people in the industry/the business are hyper sensitive to this aspect of reputation.




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Yes, popularity doesn't mean you have to like it. However, this 50/50 split is utter ********. You get more articles, because it came out a little over a year ago and fans have been picking at it ever since.

I looked pretty hard for Jaws. I also looked for,


TDKR disappointment

TDKR bad

TDKR let down


And found a couple hundred links. This isn't just messageboards though, but blogs, videos, articles and reviews. Then again, I can find a good amount of "TDKR is great", "TDKR is good", "TDKR is brilliant", "TDKR is Epic", "TDKR is oscar worthy", etc.

What exactly is everyone's point in here other than, there are people that hate it and love it passionately? I'm not quite sure.

You say how TDKR is more recent? Okay? So that makes the criticisms against it more recent? How is that my fault? Not a lot of people are talking about Jaws right now. I guess it's reputation is fine or people just don't care. TDKR? Well, it's recent, and these 2012, 2013, 2014 arguments are recent. What do you want me to do? I can't make it fair, you're the one with the comparison/example.

You guys are making it sound like there's like this little corner in the basement of the internet where people dislike this thing. Web searches say other wise.





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The point is that it is not a split. There is a very, very loud minority out there. However, that does not make this SM3. I am honestly kind of surprised that you do not realize that you are in a minority. Which is fine, I'm in the minority for thinking Avatar is a mediocre techno demo with an insipid screenplay. But I'm also not going to pretend that it didn't make $2 billion, was well received by critics, was nominated for Best Picture and Best Director at the Academy Awards, and is still vastly loved by a majority of filmgoers to this day.

And yes, in a thread like this, we are talking about majority opinions and perceptions.


TDKR wasn't nominated for anything at the Academy Awards. I don't see a lot of Avatar love by a majority of film goers to this day. I see a lot of interest in future sequels though. I actually feel the same way you do about Avatar and . . . . gasp, see a lot of people that feel the same way as we do. Especially when Avatar hit. I saw a lot of "avatard", "avaturd" and Dances with Wolves jokes. I saw a lot hating that wasn't exclusive to anyone outlet.


If this TDKR problem isn't split and isn't a minority, then you're saying that the majority love TDKR. I say that is pretty moronic and asinine reasoning, as demonstrated in the above arguments. We can go in circles all night if you want, but there's no way you're going to prove to me that the WORLD as we know it, favors TDKR. Like wise, I can't and won't say that the majority opinion is that more people hate it, because I know that's absolutely false.

If we want to go and partake in this dance, "50/50" is the only plausible thing I can agree to. Minorities and majorities are immeasurable when we're taking into account the entire movie watching audience. Those feeble minded bloggers, message boardies, reviewers, etc? They all have a say, It's not like these OPINIONS are like secondary sources for a college paper. We're talking about opinions that consist of "I love it", "that was great", "that was good", "that was okay", "that was meh", "that was boring", "I don't care", "that was bad", "that sucked", "I hated it".


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Old 01-30-2014, 05:23 PM   #91
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Filmmakers make up the majority of film audiences? Maaan, I had no idea.

So, as individuals, does Rian Johnson's opinion that "TDKR is great" equal 1,000 people, while I, the lowly, message board dwelling milost earn 0.5? How does the tally scores work?

Besides, how many filmmakers (other than Wally Pfister or Spike Lee) blast other people's films? Pretty much zero. What person in the business is going to say, "**** Nolan, I hated TDKR, what a disappointment". Probably none. You never know who you might work with in the future, stepping on people's toes isn't going to get you there. I don't see anyone in the business really blasting Michael Bay, right? That's only "the fans".
I am not going to pretend that if I post an opinion as "DACrowe" that it will carry with it the same weight as a filmmaker who has been doing it for decades to someone who's only knowledge of me is what I post on a message board. Just as I imagine the insight of a professional athlete is worth more to viewers than the guy one stool over in the bar swearing that Manning sucks.

Quote:
I looked pretty hard for Jaws. I also looked for,


TDKR disappointment

TDKR bad

TDKR let down


And found a couple hundred links. This isn't just messageboards though, but blogs, videos, articles and reviews. Then again, I can find a good amount of "TDKR is great", "TDKR is good", "TDKR is brilliant", "TDKR is Epic", "TDKR is oscar worthy", etc.

What exactly is everyone's point in here other than, there are people that hate it and love it passionately? I'm not quite sure.

You say how TDKR is more recent? Okay? So that makes the criticisms against it more recent? How is that my fault? Not a lot of people are talking about Jaws right now. I guess it's reputation is fine or people just don't care. TDKR? Well, it's recent, and these 2012, 2013, 2014 arguments are recent. What do you want me to do? I can't make it fair, you're the one with the comparison/example.

You guys are making it sound like there's like this little corner in the basement of the internet where people dislike this thing. Web searches say other wise.
And it fell away. But Spielberg was famously snubbed for best director. He (sadly) never worked with Verna Fields (the editor) again, because many scoffed that she salvaged his movie for him and that he could never make another hit on his own.

If that example isn't popular enough, look up what Stephen King and many of his fans think about The Shining and how Kubrick ruined it. But you're right, 40 years on those complaints have faded into the background as white noise. I think it is actually quite reflective of what is going to happen here. While TDKR is no Jaws or even The Shining, the naysayers' yelling recedes with time as the legacy endures.

Quote:
TDKR wasn't nominated for anything at the Academy Awards. I don't see a lot of Avatar love by a majority of film goers to this day. I see a lot of interest in future sequels though. I actually feel the same way you do about Avatar and . . . . gasp, see a lot of people that feel the same way as we do. Especially when Avatar hit. I saw a lot of "avatard", "avaturd" and Dances with Wolves jokes. I saw a lot hating that wasn't exclusive to anyone outlet.


If this TDKR problem isn't split and isn't a minority, then you're saying that the majority love TDKR. I say that is pretty moronic and asinine reasoning, as demonstrated in the above arguments. We can go in circles all night if you want, but there's no way you're going to prove to me that the WORLD as we know it, favors TDKR. Like wise, I can't and won't say that the majority opinion is that more people hate it, because I know that's absolutely false.
But I am not going to pretend that what some people type on message boards is reflective of a large percentage of the audience. We here are a certain demographic that skews a certain way. Just because about HALF of us dislike Avatar, does not mean that it is indicative of the audiences that raised that movie up to be the most successful film of all time. We are in the minority, and I will not pretend that a movie that broke box office records and is one of the only sci-fi films ever nominated by the Academy for Best Picture and Best Director, and is largely recognized as a game changer in the 3D market for American moviemaking in the 21st century will not stand tall for decades to come. It has carved out a large spot for itself in cinema history. Just because you and I complain about it on SuperheroHype does not mean that its spot isn't already secured and that film historians, genre enthusiasts, and likely GA moviegoers who enjoyed it and may want to share it with its kids, will not revisit it for years to come. In fact, you can count on that.

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:47 PM   #92
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I am not going to pretend that if I post an opinion as "DACrowe" that it will carry with it the same weight as a filmmaker who has been doing it for decades to someone who's only knowledge of me is what I post on a message board. Just as I imagine the insight of a professional athlete is worth more to viewers than the guy one stool over in the bar swearing that Manning sucks.

I don't think my "voice" has as much weight as other filmmakers, I'd be an idiot if I did. But I do know in this whole argument, one opinion is one opinion that one individual can own.

I'm also curious what you think about knob polishing in the industry. How many filmmakers can you actually dig up that say Batman and Robin was a huge travesty and that Schumacher messed up? None. Not saying TDKR is anywhere near the level of Batman and Robin, it absolutely isn't and HAS actual praise, but you hardly see a fellow filmmaker throw someone under the bus. That doesn't even happen in film schools. The only quotes you'll ever hear are, "GREAT WORK".


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And it fell away. But Spielberg was famously snubbed for best director. He (sadly) never worked with Verna Fields (the editor) again, because many scoffed that she salvaged his movie for him and that he could never make another hit on his own.


If that example isn't popular enough, look up what Stephen King and many of his fans think about The Shining and how Kubrick ruined it. But you're right, 40 years on those complaints have faded into the background as white noise. I think it is actually quite reflective of what is going to happen here.
Same thing with George Lucas, except after Star Wars in 1977 . . . it's still constantly talked about how those around him ACTUALLY salvaged his film (especially his wife).

That happened. Now people don't look at George Lucas in the same light as they once did. The Shining? Baaaad example. I was just in a discussion where people were talking about book to movie adaptations and the Shining STILL gets ripped. Hell, I'll just quickly search it and see what pops up.

The Shining Sucks

Look at how recent that is. Oh my.

I personally love the Shining and it really bothers me when people rip it apart and think that, as a whole that it's just this weird movie. The isolation of the Overlook, Nicholson's perfomance, the ending, "Tony" I love it all.

But that doesn't change the fact that, to this day, 30 years later, people are still ripping it for the same reasons. Also, I've got to ask, what "legacy" does the Shining actually have other than a couple of iconic scenes and lines ("here's Johnny!"). I think us cinephiles and fans tend to embellish things that we love and throw around quite a bit of hyperbole I'm certainly guilty of that.



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The TDKR naysayers' yelling recedes with time as the legacy endures.

Will it though? Better be sure. You never know what the future holds. You guys and all your contradictory examples of older films that have had complete 180s in terms of likability doesn't seem to make it likely. Going by the constant examples of Kubrick and Ridley Scott movies, things can only look more grim in TDKR's future.

What if the TDKR hate catches on even more . . . . or worse? I'm convinced that the people in here that are completely ga ga over TDKR are more afraid that it will fall into obscurity than everyone ripping it to shreds, hence the reactions I'm seeing.



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But I am not going to pretend that what some people type on message boards is reflective of a large percentage of the audience. We here are a certain demographic that skews a certain way. Just because about HALF of us dislike Avatar, does not mean that it is indicative of the audiences that raised that movie up to be the most successful film of all time. We are in the minority, and I will not pretend that a movie that broke box office records and is one of the only sci-fi films ever nominated by the Academy for Best Picture and Best Director, and is largely recognized as a game changer in the 3D market for American moviemaking in the 21st century will not stand tall for decades to come. It has carved out a large spot for itself in cinema history. Just because you and I complain about it on SuperheroHype does not mean that its spot isn't already secured and that film historians, genre enthusiasts, and likely GA moviegoers who enjoyed it and may want to share it with its kids, will not revisit it for years to come. In fact, you can count on that.
So it would be a 50/50, but because there is a whole lot of praise from the other side, it doesn't matter?

Alrighty then.

Personally, I never really complained about Avatar, but I did share the opinion that a lot of people seem to posses. I hate using the word "overrated" but I didn't get what was so special about it. It won big time with box office and reception but you still got the feeling that people were baffled by it and didn't understand what the big deal was. Looking back, I still don't get it.

But, I never contributed to it vocally. 2009 came and went and I didn't care about it enough to talk about how lame I thought it was. So where would that put me? Did I like it or love it? Neither, I didn't really give a ****. THAT is the true majority.

The true majority for TDKR? They don't give two ****s about it anymore. It's over, it's done. Good or bad, they saw the movie, got their little kick out of it, bought the movie for home video and either like it or didn't. They'll most likely see it again in the future either on tv or on home video. Attention spans are getting shorter and shorter, it's even worse in Asia. Only us message boarding fans "care" about it at this point in time. With another Batman movie on the horizon, other films (not just superhero/comic ones), I want to see what people think of TDKR. Right now? Looks like lambasting to me. How long has it been anywhere that TDKR has been discussed for pages on end about how "great it was" without some kind dumb, discussion war of two sides debating if it was "great" at all? August 2012 atleast, but even that is probably being too generous.


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Old 01-30-2014, 05:54 PM   #93
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Ahem...Look at the name of the thread.
Ahem...look at the people and posts I was addressing.

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Did the film not get like a 88% Audience Rating on RT?
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Yup.
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Then how do people here think it has divided people?
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Because they live in a fantasy.

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Of course, we are going to take into public consideration of the film when we talk about its reputation and legacy, not just what fans say. But you're right, some fans will always hate it. And if you wish, I can find you some fans who hate the Jaws movie because Speilberg changed the ending. Doesn't really change that movie's place in film history, now does it?

Just saying.
You finding "some fans" is not the same thing as two sides being so divided on a film like a TDKR. TDKR is far closer to a 50/50 split here; Jaws isn't (and once again, I am just talking about the fanbase).

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Old 01-30-2014, 05:58 PM   #94
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Does not compute.
Yeah, I know.

I was actually thinking of what BLR had said earlier in the thread about some characters, such as Harry, actually having their arcs completed in that particular movie. But yeah, that's not that bright of a spot.

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Old 01-30-2014, 06:07 PM   #95
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You guys are making it sound like there's like this little corner in the basement of the internet where people dislike this thing.
TDKR-hating themed party in milost's basement! SSH accounts will be checked at the door.

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Yeah, I know.

I was actually thinking of what BLR had said earlier in the thread about some characters, such as Harry, actually having their arcs completed in that particular movie. But yeah, that's not that bright of a spot.
lol Yeah, I know what you mean. It does have a few tiny little things going for it here and there, but barely any overall.

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Old 01-30-2014, 06:53 PM   #96
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

To be honest, I think it's quite possible that Nolan is just going to settle into this role of being a more divisive filmmaker as time goes on. TDK and Inception and all the hype around those movies really brought out a new level of Nolan-haters, who haven't been too impressed with him all along and were getting continually frustrated with the ever-increasing amount of worship he was getting.

This thought came about when I clicked a few links from one of milost's Google searches and noticed that several of the articles were written by people who openly dislike Nolan and his previous two Batman films too and just wanted to get in on the bashing. Obviously this doesn't speak to everyone, I know plenty of fans of the first two movies weren't fond of TDKR, but I guess I can't help but also notice this trend where Nolan is getting more and more divisive. And the fact that TDKR was his biggest and most ambitious film in scale, coupled with the fact that it had to follow TDK and was in some ways destined to fall short in a lot of people's eyes...I think a lot of the people with hate-ons for Nolan came out in full force with the pitchforks at the ready. AGAIN- this is not my attempt to "explain away" anything and I know that only represents a portion of the audience.

I guess what I'm saying is, at this point I'm already anticipating the divided reaction to Interstellar. "Best space movie since 2001!" "Stupid Nolanites how dare you compare this glorified Contact remake to anything Kubrick" etc etc etc

But, I really don't care. I'm kinda glad TDKR is a "bad movie" in some people's eyes because Nolan should be allowed to fail, just like every other filmmaker is. His hype was/is starting to become something a burden where it was almost like people were waiting and hoping for him to drop the ball. To me, he still hasn't made anything close to a bad film, but I'm hoping for the next leg of his career to help shed all the baggage that comes with helming something as precious as Batman and for people to just sit back and enjoy his movies a bit and stop over-analyzing them literally to death.

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Old 01-30-2014, 07:47 PM   #97
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I don't think my "voice" has as much weight as other filmmakers, I'd be an idiot if I did. But I do know in this whole argument, one opinion is one opinion that one individual can own.

I'm also curious what you think about knob polishing in the industry. How many filmmakers can you actually dig up that say Batman and Robin was a huge travesty and that Schumacher messed up? None. Not saying TDKR is anywhere near the level of Batman and Robin, it absolutely isn't and HAS actual praise, but you hardly see a fellow filmmaker throw someone under the bus. That doesn't even happen in film schools. The only quotes you'll ever hear are, "GREAT WORK".
Most don't praise blockbuster filmmakers as art, particularly the likes of Anderson. Yes there is a lot of sycophantic culture in Hollywood and most industries, but (not that it matters), those were all examples of filmmakers volunteering blockbuster(s) they thought were genuinely great, or as Spielberg dared to say, "art."

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Same thing with George Lucas, except after Star Wars in 1977 . . . it's still constantly talked about how those around him ACTUALLY salvaged his film (especially his wife).

That happened. Now people don't look at George Lucas in the same light as they once did. The Shining? Baaaad example. I was just in a discussion where people were talking about book to movie adaptations and the Shining STILL gets ripped. Hell, I'll just quickly search it and see what pops up.

The Shining Sucks

Look at how recent that is. Oh my.

I personally love the Shining and it really bothers me when people rip it apart and think that, as a whole that it's just this weird movie. The isolation of the Overlook, Nicholson's perfomance, the ending, "Tony" I love it all.

But that doesn't change the fact that, to this day, 30 years later, people are still ripping it for the same reasons. Also, I've got to ask, what "legacy" does the Shining actually have other than a couple of iconic scenes and lines ("here's Johnny!"). I think us cinephiles and fans tend to embellish things that we love and throw around quite a bit of hyperbole I'm certainly guilty of that.
You realize that you just made my point for me, right?

You love The Shining 30 years on. As do most movie buffs, critics, and genre fans of horror (the kind most likely to go back and watch Kubrick movies). You're right there will always be a vocal minority. However, The Shining is generally considered one of the great horror movies of the post-Exorcist era in Hollywood.

Don't take my word for it check with:

AFI ranking it the 29th Best American Thriller of All Time

AFI ranking Jack Torrence the 25th Greatest Villain of All Time

And (if it's worth anything) the online fanboy plaudit of being #56 on the IMDB Top 250

But you're right: there will always be some whiny fanboys on the internet pissed off that Jack Nicholson played Torrence as a monster and that Kubrick turned Wendy into a submissive character. But you have to search for those complaints. For those who love movies, source material infidelity and purist whining means little in the long run.

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So it would be a 50/50, but because there is a whole lot of praise from the other side, it doesn't matter?

Alrighty then.
It might be on an internet message board. But it is not overall. If it were as divisive as you make it out to be, it would not have $2 billion, three sequels greenlit, and AMPAS acceptance. My point is that even if the two of us turned this into an Avatar-bashing thread, and only one person came up to defend Avatar, that still would not be indicative of its popular opinion status. And yes, that is what a reputation, this thread, is all about.

People on message boards and blogs complain. That pretty much applies to everything.

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Old 01-30-2014, 08:09 PM   #98
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Nice try, but I didn't prove jack.

You said how Shining's criticisms have died away and have "faded into background" noise. Uhhh, no they haven't. All you did was twist it around to try and make the argument that once again "it's just whiney Internet babies". I don't know how old you are but I remember back in the 80s people were ripping on Shining pretty hard, even going as far as saying it was bizarre and substanceless. Hate to tell you this, but there wasn't an Internet or community, well, not how we know it today.

Those same things are still being mentioned by different people, even today. It's still an issue. AFI? You mean the lists that haven't been updated since the 90s/early 2000s? Isn't the most modern film to make the cut via anniversary LOTR? What's that say? Then by that token, TDKR isn't even recognized and the original Batman along with Keaton and Nicholson are the famed icons of cinematic history for Batman. That can't be right, can it.

For the here and now, who is running up and down the streets proclaiming The Shining's sheer brilliance? Is this in the media? Who is in authority here to dictate such things? Why or how is this well known? It's funny because when I'm on the subject of the Shining it's usually me trying to convince people that the Kubrick film is better than the freaking made for television drama.


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Old 01-31-2014, 08:34 AM   #99
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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Besides, how many filmmakers (other than Wally Pfister or Spike Lee) blast other people's films? Pretty much zero.
I actually kind of disagree with that point. It happens often enough.

David Cronenberg took a shot at comic book movies as a whole, basically calling them stupid when asked about TDKR being "high art", even though he semi-back peddled on that.

Tarantino bashed Prometheus, saying "there was a lot of dumb stuff in it". He also bashed The Matrix sequels, saying "they ruined the mythology".

Joss Whedon took a very light shot at TDK, saying he preferred Begins and that TDK got it wrong by focusing too much on The Joker.

Plenty of directors, writers and actors have bashed the Star Wars prequels, or at the very least expressed preference for the originals...not the least of which being JJ Abrams himself.

In the new The Making of Return of the Jedi book, in his foreword Brad Bird elaborates on why he and many others found RoTJ disappointing in 1983 (though he does so in a very respectful way that also honors the accomplishments of the whole trilogy)

Ben Affleck to this day is still badmouthing Daredevil and complaining about how "the movie got f***** up". Let's look at more Batmen:

Michael Keaton took a shot at Batman Forever. "I watched 5 minutes of it and I knew I made the right decision."

George Clooney bashes his OWN Batman film and admits to it ruining the franchise.

And these are just examples I'm aware of off the top of my head, I'm sure it happens more than either of us realize. Yes, there is a certain level of professional courtesy (or knob-polishing if you prefer) in Hollywood, but let's not forget...Hollywood is also full of creative, very opinionated people.

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Old 01-31-2014, 09:12 AM   #100
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Default Re: Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

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I actually kind of disagree with that point. It happens often enough.

David Cronenberg took a shot at comic book movies as a whole, basically calling them stupid when asked about TDKR being "high art", even though he semi-back peddled on that.

Tarantino bashed Prometheus, saying "there was a lot of dumb stuff in it". He also bashed The Matrix sequels, saying "they ruined the mythology".

Joss Whedon took a very light shot at TDK, saying he preferred Begins and that TDK got it wrong by focusing too much on The Joker.

Plenty of directors, writers and actors have bashed the Star Wars prequels, or at the very least expressed preference for the originals...not the least of which being JJ Abrams himself.

In the new The Making of Return of the Jedi book, in his foreword Brad Bird elaborates on why he and many others found RoTJ disappointing in 1983 (though he does so in a very respectful way that also honors the accomplishments of the whole trilogy)

Ben Affleck to this day is still badmouthing Daredevil and complaining about how "the movie got f***** up". Let's look at more Batmen:

Michael Keaton took a shot at Batman Forever. "I watched 5 minutes of it and I knew I made the right decision."

George Clooney bashes his OWN Batman film and admits to it ruining the franchise.

And these are just examples I'm aware of off the top of my head, I'm sure it happens more than either of us realize. Yes, there is a certain level of professional courtesy (or knob-polishing if you prefer) in Hollywood, but let's not forget...Hollywood is also full of creative, very opinionated people.
Yeah and besides, it's not like Pfister didn't have a point with his criticism.

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