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Old 01-28-2014, 06:54 AM   #126
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

I suppose so. I just imagined them having the Holmes/Moriarty, Batman/Joker, style of personal battle of wits in the next film. Two Gods destined to clash battling for their city.

We have had tons of Supermans on screen too but that didn't stop Cavills being fresh so I was hoping for a Lex that eclipses the past ones also.

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Old 01-28-2014, 07:09 AM   #127
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

Well that being said, I do think it would be cool if he made his true debut as a villain in a post Justice League solo movie though. "Superman: The Man of Tomorrow" in 2019 or something, beginning a new arc, with a new director, a more classic tone, President Lex as the villain (exposed and arrested for good by the end), etc.


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Old 01-28-2014, 07:23 AM   #128
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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Old 01-28-2014, 10:56 AM   #129
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

People nit pick films they care about. I saw GI Joe recently and it had tons of holes, but I don't chat about it because it means nothing to me whether a GI Joe movie reaches it's potential or not. I had a big expectation for MOS and spent a long time waiting for it, so I'm going to want to talk about the parts that could have been better, what I wanted differently, what I would prefer. Like it or not people obsess over these things in films they care about, otherwise it's just insipid "what was your favourite part" "post the best quote" back patting. I'm just more of a nit picker.

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Old 01-28-2014, 03:32 PM   #130
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So BvS or whatever they name it is an insulting movie to superman???
No, it's an honest title? Have you been actually reading my posts?

My problem is that they barely introduced the character to the world. In fact 99+% of the world doesn't even know about Superman. And right when he's about to make his debut... he has to share the stage.

But at least Batman vs Superman or JLA Assemble would be better titles than Man of Steel 2.


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Yeah, I don't get it.... The Superman/Batman dynamic would be an awesome thing to see on screen.
As I said myself that a JLA movie would be great, didn't I?

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Yeah, I see where you're coming from, it doesn't look like an MOS sequel, more like a JLA, well actually a Trinity film, which IMHO isn't such a bad idea.

Based on current trends, jumping straight into a JLA film doesn't appear to the be the best way to introduce a new Batman, or a new Wonder Woman, or Green Lantern or Flash but maybe WB should follow a different path than Marvel/Disney has.
I agree. I'd have preferred a whole movie for Superman, like the ones every superhero has had.

But a JLA sounds great, as long as the important characters are well developed first.

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You can't fault the Marvel folks, whether you liked their lead-up films or not (and Iron Man is pretty hard not to like, the first one at least) they really set the stage for Avengers.
That approach worked for Marvel, but that doesn't mean its the only way for DC/WB to go.
Mostly, the lead-up films have short cameos or a post-credit scene about the Avengers. I can only remember Iron Man 2 doing more than that and frankly Iron Man 2 sucked. Not because of that, but if you have a super-villain that does nothing during the whole core of the movie and then you add stuff that's about another movie, it doesn't work.

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Personally, I would have preferred a solo MOS sequel, with another classic Superman villain(s), before a team up, even with Batman, but if the upcoming film is well done, I won't be complaining.
This.

Just imagine all the building up Batman Begins did to introduce Batman and the future intervention of the Joker. Now what would have happened if The Dark Knight had had Superman and Wonder Woman in it instead of the classic Batman-Joker confrontation.

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There seems to be some agreement that MOS hasn't been as well received as STM, and some suggestion that it won't stand the test of time, the way STM has (although those opinions are of course disputed)

At one end some say it wasn't the world that wasn't ready, it was the film that was seriously flawed.

At the other end, people believe that MOS was cinematic magic and that the public were too stuck on STM (let's face it, they probably weren't holding fast to Superman III or IV or Superman Returns, as the definitive iterations of the character), or at least weren't ready to see a different version of Superman, who's a bit more with current trends in Superhero cinema. As such, maybe MOS was misunderstood.
I think Snyder did very good with Superman. And the movie certainly had all the right elements. But Goyer, IMO, made a few serious mistakes that I've mentioned over and over.

And of course MOS wasn't STM. STM was not only a good movie but something else given the time when it was made and released.

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Old 01-28-2014, 03:50 PM   #131
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Dude, agree to disagree on MOS. Wow you must have really hated it if you found it worse than After Earth, which IMO is the worst movie made this century. But hey, fair enough I respect your opinion.

(Do you think it's fair to say that generally people either loved it, or hated it ? With those who were in the middle being the minority )
I thought After Earth was pretty bad but not bad enough to get completely torched like it did.

As for how the general public perceived MOS? I honestly do not know. If I had to take an educated guess I'd say the majority of casual movie goers left the theater feeling totally indifferent. I didn't really feel like there was a "buzz" surrounding this movie past it's opening weekend. I mean one week it was the most talked about movie event of the year and then before you knew it... it was just kinda gone.

And if I am being perfectly honest, I do not know a single person (in real life, not on a superhero movie forum) that said a positive thing about the movie. I have a friend who said he kinda dug it but everyone else I ever talked to about the movie was pretty bummed by it. God's honest truth. Take from that what you will. Outside of that I do not know.

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Were any of them as good as STM, IMO no, not even close? As for myself, if I'm around in 20 years, I'll probably still be watching MOS (maybe me and the MOS fans on this thread will be the only ones, as you say, time will tell) but I'd be very pleased to think that STM was still relevant, even in 2034 and beyond.
STM is not a perfect movie by any means. It was almost a perfect movie but the ending to this day is still pretty terrible. I can admit that.

For 20 years Burton's Batman was "the Batman movie". That honor now sort of belongs to The Dark Knight. Until STM is dethroned as the definitive cinematic interpretation of Superman, it isn't going anywhere. It'll probably remain a classic for years and years to come.


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Old 01-28-2014, 04:45 PM   #132
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

I remember wishing for a shared movie DC universe back in 06 when I saw the sets for Supes Returns. I couldn't wait for the following year when we would get that cool Joss Whedon WW movie in the same visual style as BB and SR. I could just imagine her in cool art deco styled golden armor wisecracking cool Whedon lines played by some dark haired body building beauty.

I just hope with it's mixed popularity MOS is the Begins of the series and the second film is a TDK that unites the fans.

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Old 01-28-2014, 05:30 PM   #133
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

For me,it's the same thing that went wrong with TASM.When you have a re-boot that insists on:
A. A "darker" tone
and
B. Distancing itself from the previous incarnations to the extent that they re-write key elements of the origin.

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Old 01-28-2014, 07:53 PM   #134
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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For 20 years Burton's Batman was "the Batman movie". That honor now sort of belongs to The Dark Knight. Until STM is dethroned as the definitive cinematic interpretation of Superman, it isn't going anywhere. It'll probably remain a classic for years and years to come.
Very much on the same page with you there.

The ending is my main gripe with STM, I didn't quite get it as an 8 year old when I saw it the first time, and several decades later I still
think it was an incredibly lame way to resolve the final crisis....but the thing is at the end of the film, when Reeve gives the audience a smile as he soars off into the sunrise, you still walk out feeling fantastic.

I was thinking about the whole Batman '89/ Dark Knight thing, and going to ask people if they thought that Dark Knight had replaced 1989 Burton Batman as "the" definitive Batman movie?

Now that film had tremendous buzz at the time. I think it stands around 70% on RT, which is neither here nor there, depending how much stock you put in the aggregate review. But, until Dark Knight came along it certainly was "the" Batman movie. That's probably a thread worth starting under threads, if someone hasn't done it already.

For me, they're such different films, it's a tough comparison to make, but if I had to choose only one Batman film to take to a desert Island, it would probably be Nolan's. Or maybe, if I was going to recommend a Bat-film to a non-Batman fan, Dark Knight is probably the most accessible.

As for recommending MOS vs STM to a non-Super fan, yeah I suppose I'd ask whether they preferred lighter or darker films, and then make the recommendation -just because they cover the same ground, but in very different ways. If it was a younger person, I'd probably recommend MOS, just because today's younger audiences are probably more acquainted with the big-effects blockbusters (which STM was in its time I suppose).

As far as people who aren't Superman fans reaction to MOS, everyone I spoke to enjoyed it (honestly, not just tweaking the numbers), but whether they develop a new appreciation or affection for the character or become fans, I'm not so sure - probably not for most of them. As you say, they probably enjoyed the spectacle, and then went on about their lives, without it making much of an impact.

Having said that, maybe MOS didn't create a new generation of Superman fans (I'm speculating here in the absence of any real evidence), but I know it certainly had an impact on fans -for the most part the fans I talked to loved it, but obviously some quite high profile fans really didn't.
But that happens when you take an established character and do something different with him, it polarizes people (by different here, I mean trying to make a Superman film that's more in tune with contemporary super-hero movie sensibilities).


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Old 01-28-2014, 11:17 PM   #135
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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No, it's an honest title? Have you been actually reading my posts?

My problem is that they barely introduced the character to the world. In fact 99+% of the world doesn't even know about Superman. And right when he's about to make his debut... he has to share the stage.

But at least Batman vs Superman or JLA Assemble would be better titles than Man of Steel 2.


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ya. we didn't even see the classic newspaper reporting "the capewonder/ flying man saved the day". the world still didn't know about him. and we had no idea how their reaction were. it sorta bugged me too. felt kinda odd the 1st time i watched it.

however, i think we are so used to the formula of a superhero film and we have subconsciously made some interpretation. we went into the cinema with a prior perception. like once we saw kal el walked out from the FOS with the costume on the 1st time, we thought he gonna do some classical saving deeds and introduced himself to the world. but he didn't.

from there, the movie began to run away from our perception. we couldn't really enjoy the movie as we had to keep on update/ignore/counter check with our perception while watching the movie.

well, we will only know if the title is honest or not when we have known about the synopsis of the next movie.

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Old 01-29-2014, 05:54 PM   #136
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Default Re: Superman TM 1978 vs Man of Steel 2013, was the world ready, what do you think?

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For me,it's the same thing that went wrong with TASM.When you have a re-boot that insists on:
A. A "darker" tone
and
B. Distancing itself from the previous incarnations to the extent that they re-write key elements of the origin.
I don't really think they changed many, if any, of the basic elements of Superman's origin. He's still an alien from a dying world who is found by Jonathan & Martha Kent.

And MoS isn't really as dark as people make it out to be. Yeah, it's a serious movie & opts to be less goofy but it's not nearly as dark as some claim it to be.

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Old 01-30-2014, 04:55 PM   #137
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Having said that, maybe MOS didn't create a new generation of Superman fans (I'm speculating here in the absence of any real evidence)
You are probably right.

To be fair Batman Begins didn't really do much for the Batman character either. I mean yea I remember there being some moderate buzz but all in all it was just "that new Batman movie". We didn't really get a sniff of Bat-mania until 2008 with you know what.

The same hasn't really happened with Superman. Yes his name has been on the tip of people's tongues the last year but that is to be expected whenever a new movie comes out. Beyond that I'm not sure if there was any real foundation put in place for a "revival" like we saw with Batman. And that's what Superman needs more than anything, a revival.

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Old 01-30-2014, 09:18 PM   #138
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I don't really think they changed many, if any, of the basic elements of Superman's origin. He's still an alien from a dying world who is found by Jonathan & Martha Kent.
True, but Pa Kent's death, Lois knowing everything before Superman is introduced. Big changes there. I know,that's not part of the origin, but still core parts of the myth.

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And MoS isn't really as dark as people make it out to be. Yeah, it's a serious movie & opts to be less goofy but it's not nearly as dark as some claim it to be.
But Clark spent a childhood being depressed, he hated his super powers, his father tell him not to save people's lives and dies voluntarily, Clark starts saving people a silent a depressed man, Superman kills.

I'd say that's more than just toning down the goofiness.

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Old 01-30-2014, 09:38 PM   #139
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True, but Pa Kent's death, Lois knowing everything before Superman is introduced. Big changes there. I know,that's not part of the origin, but still core parts of the myth.



But Clark spent a childhood being depressed, he hated his super powers, his father tell him not to save people's lives and dies voluntarily, Clark starts saving people a silent a depressed man, Superman kills.

I'd say that's more than just toning down the goofiness.
Yep,agreed Senator.

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Old 01-31-2014, 12:09 AM   #140
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True, but Pa Kent's death, Lois knowing everything before Superman is introduced. Big changes there. I know,that's not part of the origin, but still core parts of the myth.
Pa Kent died in Superman '78, in Smallville....in quite a few iterations, actually. And MoS wasn't the first to do that either...happened on Smallville first as well. I think it adds more to the relationship. Having Superman hide his identity but claim to love Lois kind of makes him the biggest liar on the planet.

Characters always need to be open to changes in the mythology. If the exact same story is told every single time what's the point? Film-making itself is about being creative & telling YOUR story.

Snyder & crew didn't sign up to tell someone else's version of Superman, they signed up to tell their story. Does it have flaws? Sure, but the two things in question, I believe, are flexible enough elements that can be changed when in the right hands.

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But Clark spent a childhood being depressed, he hated his super powers, his father tell him not to save people's lives and dies voluntarily, Clark starts saving people a silent a depressed man, Superman kills.

I'd say that's more than just toning down the goofiness.
I think people took what Pa Kent said the wrong way, & that the dialogue wasn't worded correctly either. I think he meant that he should be more mindful of the fact that he's able to do what he can do.

And true, but I still don't necessarily see a problem with it, honestly. Sure, Superman is a more or less happy go lucky character with his head on straight, but no one starts out that way. No one just grows up absolutely perfect. People, be it alien or otherwise, have to learn what it means.

The same goes for Superman...I doubt anyone would be happy to be from an alien planet & have no one to relate to. People always treat it as if it's no big deal, but really it is, and to downplay it would be doing a disservice to the character, imo.

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Old 01-31-2014, 01:13 PM   #141
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Yep,agreed Senator.



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Pa Kent died in Superman '78, in Smallville....in quite a few iterations, actually. And MoS wasn't the first to do that either...happened on Smallville first as well. I think it adds more to the relationship.
I think it's clear that the problem is not Pa Kent dying, but the way he dies.

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Having Superman hide his identity but claim to love Lois kind of makes him the biggest liar on the planet.
So, you don't like the character to start with.

I mean, Superman is too strong as well, do we make him vulnerable to bullets to make it more interesting?

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Characters always need to be open to changes in the mythology. If the exact same story is told every single time what's the point? Film-making itself is about being creative & telling YOUR story.
The approach. You don't have to change core parts of a character to make it more interesting.

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Snyder & crew didn't sign up to tell someone else's version of Superman, they signed up to tell their story. Does it have flaws? Sure, but the two things in question, I believe, are flexible enough elements that can be changed when in the right hands.
They signed up to tell Superman's story, not some superhero they liked they call Superman.

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I think people took what Pa Kent said the wrong way, & that the dialogue wasn't worded correctly either. I think he meant that he should be more mindful of the fact that he's able to do what he can do.

And true, but I still don't necessarily see a problem with it, honestly. Sure, Superman is a more or less happy go lucky character with his head on straight, but no one starts out that way. No one just grows up absolutely perfect. People, be it alien or otherwise, have to learn what it means.

The same goes for Superman...I doubt anyone would be happy to be from an alien planet & have no one to relate to. People always treat it as if it's no big deal, but really it is, and to downplay it would be doing a disservice to the character, imo.
Point is, it was a dark version of the character.

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Old 01-31-2014, 06:22 PM   #142
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Point is, it was a dark version of the character.

Are you saying it was too dark ?

If so, that's a fair call, and you're totally entitled to your opinion.

BTW I agree with you on the death of Jonathan Kent. That his death is part of the myth and needed to be in the film, almost goes without saying. I know what they were trying to do with the Tornado scene, but for me
it didn't quite carry it off.

As to this being a "dark" version of Superman, I disagree, but it's really just my opinion.
In relative terms it was a much darker version than STM 1978, or many of the modern comics iterations - even a shade darker than Byrne's Superman, which has always been my personal favourite.

Anyway, the word I would use to describe this film, as opposed to "dark" is "serious" or maybe "heavy." Of course, maybe that's just another way of saying dark, but that's how it looks to me.

I guess Christopher Reeve and Richard Donner have tremendously influenced the character in terms of injecting a sense of fun into him, and in those film Superman smiles a lot, and cracks jokes whenever he can. There's that great moment in STM where Clark and Lois get mugged, and after the mugger runs away, Clark recovers from his pretended faint, Lois storms off, Clark stands up, opens his hands to reveal he's caught the bullets, and smiles at the audience - that kind of thing is totally absent in MOS.

Maybe if after he saved the school-bus, he'd smiled at Lana, then that might have lightened things up.

Cavill's Superman is a much more serious character. I wouldn't describe him at all as depressed -mostly because people suffering depression often can't do anything, whereas Clark goes about his life, searching, a bit aimlessly, looking for himself. He's certainly burdened, and not joyful at all. I don't think we see him smile in the first half of the film.

I think the sense of what they try to convey in that first half film is
Clark's emotional turmoil, and struggle to find out who he is and what he's supposed to do, and the burden that his great secret carries. I don't see this as "dark" but it certainly isn't the joyful romp that STM was.

This is just IMO, but when he comes back to Smallville to see his mom, after meeting Jor El, you see him smile for pretty much the first time, there is real sense of relief in the character, now that he knows who he is, although he still doesn't really know what he's supposed to do.


Anyway, that's one of the more emotional scenes in the film. The final flashback, with Clark as a kid, although it's the image of a child playing, it's not really a "light" scene, because it's about Jonathan's realisation that this child is going to grow up and change the world ....and of course the characters thinking about it are standing over his grave.

Maybe the reason MOS worked for me is that I've always seen Superman as quite a serious character, one who carries a lot of self-imposed responsibility. I've never thought of him as happy-go-lucky.
t's true that in MOS he doesn't say much, but to me Superman's a man of few words, he's a doer not a talker. To be honest, I thought that Cavill's work as Superman (in the costume) was better when he didn't say much. The interrogation room scene worked for me (there was a brief light moment there, one of the few in the film, before it gets serious again).

All in all, I didn't see it as "dark" per se (might just be me, but "dark" would be more like The Dark Knight, as in the film deals with obsession, madness and a kind of anarchic violence). In STM even then there was the threat of the death of millions, although it seemed much more impersonal (death by Earthquake) than death by forced terraforming.

Hmmmm... maybe the Apocalyptic nature of the threat posed by Zod and the Kryptonians could be described as "dark."

I wouldn't say it makes Superman a dark character, or the film overall a dark film, but I would agree that MOS' version of Zod is certainly much, much darker than Superman II. You can still have dark elements in a film without the overall picture being "dark." e.g. Return of the Jedi has dark elements in it, including a teddy-bear massacre, but I wouldn't call it a dark film.

In the end, I liked seeing Superman struggle and was glad that nothing came easy to him -especially his victories- for me that really worked, and was a good iteration of the classic hero, IMO.

So, in summary, I didn't see the film as dark, but that's just IMO. Much , much more serious though, so if that fits your description of "dark" then we're probably on the same page. I can certainly see why the film was
too serious for some people (especially fans of the original film).



On a different subject, changing Lois' knowledge re Clark's secret identity,
well actually doing away with the secret identity altogether really, is changing a core part of the myth (of course it has happened in the comics as well).

I don't know if it makes Superman more interesting, or if it was necessary, but I still liked it. Personally, I'm glad they did it, because it also solves the problem of how Lois Lane, investigative reporter, is fooled by a pair of glasses. To be honest, I thought that having Lois be the person who essentially "outs" Superman (well before Zod does it more conclusively) and that she finds him, made more sense in having the two characters meet and form a relationship. But that's just IMO.

yeah, not the best screen romance ever, but I thought that it accomplished what it needed to. Probably on a par with the romance in Thor, not all that convincing, but there.

I'm also glad they gave Lois stuff to do (like shoot evil Kryptonians), although I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with those who thought her being on the Kryptonian ship, or the cargo plane were just contrivances. Personally, I thought it worked, but that's just me.
In STM and SM II she's pretty much a liability the whole film, so I thought that was a welcome change.

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