Should the new Batman movies go fantastical?

[SuperFerret]

Considering that Batman is inherently fantastical, yes.


I find it humorous that people find Batman to be more realistic than Superman due solely to the fact that Batman is human. Realism in any sort of speculative fiction basically comes down to believability, and Batman's world is far less believable than Superman's.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

Considering that Batman is inherently fantastical, yes.


I find it humorous that people find Batman to be more realistic than Superman due solely to the fact that Batman is human. Realism in any sort of speculative fiction basically comes down to believability, and Batman's world is far less believable than Superman's.

Are you serious?

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

Considering that Batman is inherently fantastical, yes.


I find it humorous that people find Batman to be more realistic than Superman due solely to the fact that Batman is human. Realism in any sort of speculative fiction basically comes down to believability, and Batman's world is far less believable than Superman's.

what!? Are you joking?

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Oswald

But the demons, gods and extraterrestrials provide nothing to the Batman mythos, they're fine to Superman or others fantastic heroes, but Batman is a human and his enemies and the menaces he confronts are also human. For me Batman against a fantastic creature has so much sense as Superman against the Joker or another human psychopath: that is, nothing.

It's true there has been fantastic characters and plots along Batman's story, I'm not gonna deny it, but, in the base, they're dispensable in the path of Bruce Wayne.

They do nothing to really further Bruce's evolution. They're always there as a villain of the week (the monsters, the robotic villains), or some experimental cross-over where Batman has a chance to fight aliens or gods. The latter is usually an enemy to another Justice League member.

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Oswald

Are you serious?

Deadly serious.

Originally Posted by shauner111

what!? Are you joking?

Nope, not joking at all.



When reading a Batman comic, you need to accept that a human being (something that exists in reality) is able to be as physically capable, skilled, knowledgeable and determined as Batman is all at once while still being in a nebulous 30-something age range. Adding the never-ending strangeness of even his most "realistic" enemies, the free range the law gives him, and the fact that he is able to be active for a number of years without eating a bullet strains the suspension of disbelief to a baffling degree.

When reading a Superman comic, you need to accept that there is a godlike alien that appears human but is pretty much invincible, has superhuman physical abilities, can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes. Adding even the most far out of his enemies, the free range the world's governments give him and the concept that his glasses can hide his identity from those closest to both his alter-egos won't strain your suspension of disbelief considering that you've already accepted Superman himself.

[Lead Cenobite]

Originally Posted by Oswald

But the demons, gods and extraterrestrials provide nothing to the Batman mythos, they're fine to Superman or others fantastic heroes, but Batman is a human and his enemies and the menaces he confronts are also human. For me Batman against a fantastic creature has so much sense as Superman against the Joker or another human psychopath: that is, nothing.

It's true there has been fantastic characters and plots along Batman's story, I'm not gonna deny it, but, in the base, they're dispensable in the path of Bruce Wayne.

I don't know if he qualifies as a psychopath, but Superman's arch nemesis is a powerless human: Lex Luthor.

And even Batman's human rogues are pretty surreal and unusual, such as Two-Face with his perfectly divided face, the Joker with his clown-like features from falling in chemicals and evergreen hair. The primary interpretations depict these "scars" as too perfect and flawless and it's only ever intentionally-realistic reinterpretations that make Two-Face's "faces" not so perfectly divided or the Joker's face not so white or his hair not so green.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

Deadly serious.



Nope, not joking at all.



When reading a Batman comic, you need to accept that a human being (something that exists in reality) is able to be as physically capable, skilled, knowledgeable and determined as Batman is all at once while still being in a nebulous 30-something age range. Adding the never-ending strangeness of even his most "realistic" enemies, the free range the law gives him, and the fact that he is able to be active for a number of years without eating a bullet strains the suspension of disbelief to a baffling degree.

When reading a Superman comic, you need to accept that there is a godlike alien that appears human but is pretty much invincible, has superhuman physical abilities, can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes. Adding even the most far out of his enemies, the free range the world's governments give him and the concept that his glasses can hide his identity from those closest to both his alter-egos won't strain your suspension of disbelief considering that you've already accepted Superman himself.

You're talking about secondary details not essential in the Batman mythos: the story of a man (a millionaire) traumatized with a violent and unpredictable event who develops a terrifying character in order to avoid it happens again. Bruce Wayne is in the peak of the mental and physical human condition, BUT he's still human, he does nothing a human (with a lot of millions, ok) can't achieve to do. Their enemies are as human as him, and they reflect their own weakness and fears. The things people use to stand up for the idea that Batman is fantastical aren't keys in the story: see the example of the Joker's look, Nolan changed the chemical bath (a pulp idea, typical of comic) for some "war paints" and the spirit of the character remained intact. And this applies to almost every aspect in his mythology.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by Lead Cenobite

I don't know if he qualifies as a psychopath, but Superman's arch nemesis is a powerless human: Lex Luthor.

Lex Luthor isn't a psychopath criminal, but a powerful billionaire genius who has even been the president of USA, and this IS a threat for Superman (I think the only human threat he has ever had). Nothing to see with the Joker or the rest of regular cast of Batman's villains.

I think if Superman represents God Lex Luthor is the rebellion of the human race against it, and if Batman represents the human order the Joker is the rebellion of the human individual against it. Curiously both Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne are millionaires, but the first is considered a villain and the second a hero

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Oswald

You're talking about secondary details not essential in the Batman mythos: the story of a man (a millionaire) traumatized with a violent and unpredictable event who develops a terrifying character in order to avoid it happens again. Bruce Wayne is in the peak of the mental and physical human condition, BUT he's still human, he does nothing a human (with a lot of millions, ok) can't achieve to do. Their enemies are as human as him, and they reflect their own weakness and fears. The things people use to stand up for the idea that Batman is fantastical aren't keys in the story: see the example of the Joker's look, Nolan changed the chemical bath (a pulp idea, typical of comic) for some "war paints" and the spirit of the character remained intact. And this applies to almost every aspect in his mythology.

A normal human, even one with unlimited money, could never possibly hope to achieve the very basics of what it means to be Batman, which is perfectly fine. He's fictional. He's a fantasy. The problem comes with the fact that despite his apparent ability to have 56 hours for every 24 hours a normal human has, every Batman story will inevitably stress the fact that he is human, usually by bringing up some quickly solved weakness that the reader can relate to. This back and forth completely breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Batman, at his core, is a man who through sheer determination, trained himself to the peak of mental and physical condition, learned mastered hundreds of varying skill sets and martial arts, devised numerous contingency plans for all sorts of scenarios (up to and including contingency plans for his contingency plans), and uses it all to further a single-minded focus to fight crime, and does this while still being young enough to look good in tights.

In no way is that realistic.

[Dk1201]

I am hoping not only for more fantastical villains but more unused villains Nolan hopefully taught us with good story telling any villain can be a good villain.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

A normal human, even one with unlimited money, could never possibly hope to achieve the very basics of what it means to be Batman, which is perfectly fine. He's fictional. He's a fantasy. The problem comes with the fact that despite his apparent ability to have 56 hours for every 24 hours a normal human has, every Batman story will inevitably stress the fact that he is human, usually by bringing up some quickly solved weakness that the reader can relate to. This back and forth completely breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Batman, at his core, is a man who through sheer determination, trained himself to the peak of mental and physical condition, learned mastered hundreds of varying skill sets and martial arts, devised numerous contingency plans for all sorts of scenarios (up to and including contingency plans for his contingency plans), and uses it all to further a single-minded focus to fight crime, and does this while still being young enough to look good in tights.

In no way is that realistic.

Ok, just answer me this question: which character you think is more suitable to exist in our reality, Batman or Superman? (and if your answer is Superman I'll be disturbed... I also want to live in that reality!)

[Victarion]

I say embrace the fantastic and add a touch of plausibility. My favorite example for this one is Poison Ivy. Make her the head of a South American drug cartel that experiments on some kind of mutagenic plant virus thing. She can use it to create plant-human hybrids that can disguise themselves as humans. These are her heavies, the muscle she uses to get a foot in the door in Gotham's drug trade. She can be developing plant toxin based bioweapons on the side, using her drug trade to fund the research. There, you've got something very science fiction-y blended with something that's more realistic. Take this principle and apply it to Batman's more fantastic rogues.

[SuperFerret]

Originally Posted by Oswald

Ok, just answer me this question: which character you think is more suitable to exist in our reality, Batman or Superman? (and if your answer is Superman I'll be disturbed... I also want to live in that reality!)

Batman, for maybe a day or two before he winds up like his parents. Also, he'll only have a fraction of any quality that the comic Batman has, to the point where he'd be more like Phoenix Jones than Batman.

Nevermind that, realism has little to do with what's real. It's more about simulating reality, and Superman's mythos does that better. Batman's treads to close to the Uncanny Valley and thus it comes out less realistic.

[shauner111]

Dude, you're sounding crazy. Batman comes off less realistic? I dont understand a single thing you're saying. Your reasons make no sense.

I have never understood when some people say that batman would only last a day or two? How is that? Batman would not be able to last anywhere near the time he does in the comics. But he could probably last a pretty long time.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by SuperFerret

Batman, for maybe a day or two before he winds up like his parents. Also, he'll only have a fraction of any quality that the comic Batman has, to the point where he'd be more like Phoenix Jones than Batman.

Nevermind that, realism has little to do with what's real. It's more about simulating reality, and Superman's mythos does that better. Batman's treads to close to the Uncanny Valley and thus it comes out less realistic.

Are you drunk? You really think an extraterrestrial exactly like a human but with superpowers which make him virtually indestructible simulates reality better than Batman? Where do you live, in Homer Simpson's Country of Lollipop?

And I agree with Shauner: the training of Bruce Wayne is a mix of real martial arts and other fight and camouflage technics, I don't understand why people insists it isn't realistic. Obviously he wouldn't last 40 years acting like Batman, but 4 or 5 (depending his luck) for sure.

[The Endless]

Originally Posted by Oswald

You're talking about secondary details not essential in the Batman mythos: the story of a man (a millionaire) traumatized with a violent and unpredictable event who develops a terrifying character in order to avoid it happens again. Bruce Wayne is in the peak of the mental and physical human condition, BUT he's still human, he does nothing a human (with a lot of millions, ok) can't achieve to do. Their enemies are as human as him, and they reflect their own weakness and fears. The things people use to stand up for the idea that Batman is fantastical aren't keys in the story: see the example of the Joker's look, Nolan changed the chemical bath (a pulp idea, typical of comic) for some "war paints" and the spirit of the character remained intact. And this applies to almost every aspect in his mythology.

Rubbish. There is no way that a human can be stronger than the best Olympic weightlifter, more agile than the best Olympic gymnast, have more stamina and endurance than the best Olympic long distance runner, as proficient in dozens of different martial arts styles, as intelligent as the greatest scientist and as brilliant as the greatest detective. It's just not physically or mentally possible.

Batman isn't realistic at all. Batman could not exist in the real world, even if he's as rich as Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Richard Branson combined.

Anywayyyy I'd like to see a more stylish take on Batman. I like the Nolan trilogy, I LOVE the first two films. But if you're going to reboot or re-imagine something, do it differently, don't try and imitate what came before. Whoever makes the next Batman films (my choice is Alfonso Cuaron) they need to bring their own style and sensibilities, just like what Burton and Nolan did.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by The Endless

Rubbish. There is no way that a human can be stronger than the best Olympic weightlifter, more agile than the best Olympic gymnast, have more stamina and endurance than the best Olympic long distance runner, as proficient in dozens of different martial arts styles, as intelligent as the greatest scientist and as brilliant as the greatest detective. It's just not physically or mentally possible.

Batman isn't realistic at all. Batman could not exist in the real world, even if he's as rich as Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Richard Branson combined.

Batman is a ****ing hyperbole, is it so difficult to understand? He doesn't necessarily have to be the master in everything, he's just a man without powers who has prepared himself very good in a lot of disciplines in order to catch the "bad guys". You're staying in the details and ignoring the essence of the character.

[The Endless]

Originally Posted by Oswald

Batman is a ****ing hyperbole, is it so difficult to understand? He doesn't necessarily have to be the master in everything, he's just a man without powers who has prepared himself very good in a lot of disciplines in order to catch the "bad guys". You're staying in the details and ignoring the essence of the character.

You just admitted it yourself then. Batman is a hyperbole. Therefore, he is not realistic.

The tragedy and the characterisation itself might be realistic. There are crazy people out there. I could totally buy someone becoming obsessed with fighting crime after witnessing a tragedy. It's probably already happened many times before. And they are probably now 6 foot under and pushing up daisies.

But if a billionaire watched his parents get gunned down and tried to come back as a vigilante, no amount of training and gadgets would allow him to survive longer than a week. Messing around with real criminals like gang bangers etc would see him shot in the face with a shotgun. Or he'd go leaping from rooftop to rooftop and plummet to his death.

Anyone who thinks Batman isn't fantastical is obviously not living in the real world themselves. I think SuperFerret is trying to say that the world Batman is in, where his main enemies are mobsters etc, a grounded world, Bats does look the odd one out. Whereas the world Superman is in, with intergalactic warlords and super advanced AIs, he isn't the odd one out because it's all consistent.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Oswald

Are you drunk? You really think an extraterrestrial exactly like a human but with superpowers which make him virtually indestructible simulates reality better than Batman? Where do you live, in Homer Simpson's Country of Lollipop?

And I agree with Shauner: the training of Bruce Wayne is a mix of real martial arts and other fight and camouflage technics, I don't understand why people insists it isn't realistic. Obviously he wouldn't last 40 years acting like Batman, but 4 or 5 (depending his luck) for sure.

Exactly. Nolan's movies had plenty of things that could never happen (heightened reality) but a 5 year plan was Nolan's intention. Which i think is pretty realistic.

Originally Posted by The Endless

Rubbish. There is no way that a human can be stronger than the best Olympic weightlifter, more agile than the best Olympic gymnast, have more stamina and endurance than the best Olympic long distance runner, as proficient in dozens of different martial arts styles, as intelligent as the greatest scientist and as brilliant as the greatest detective. It's just not physically or mentally possible.

Batman isn't realistic at all. Batman could not exist in the real world, even if he's as rich as Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Richard Branson combined.

Anywayyyy I'd like to see a more stylish take on Batman. I like the Nolan trilogy, I LOVE the first two films. But if you're going to reboot or re-imagine something, do it differently, don't try and imitate what came before. Whoever makes the next Batman films (my choice is Alfonso Cuaron) they need to bring their own style and sensibilities, just like what Burton and Nolan did.

Oh please! Even with those things you mention, it's still way more realistic. And not every comic, or interpretation/story has Batman being THAT strong. But you know what, i do think it is possible to be all of that. That's the point. Is there a person out there who has all of those skills at the same time? No, most likely not. But all of those things are possible if you look at them all individually. The fact that Bruce can do all of that (not in every medium) at once makes him a unique character compared to anyone else. But people can be a master detective, a master martial artist, etc. Batman has always been about heightened reality. Superman is pure fantasy. How does pure fantasy become more of a possibility than heightened reality?

[The Endless]

See i think Batman is pure fantasy too. The thing that makes him unrealistic is that he is all those things in one package.

Of course it's possible to be one or maybe two of those things. But it is physically impossible to be that strong, that agile and that fast all in one package. Then a Einstein level genius and Sherlock Holmes like detective? And a master of dozens of different martial arts? Come on man lol.

Being Batman is like a teenagers fantasy. Well, any mans fantasy. That's exactly what he is; fantasy.

[Oswald]

Originally Posted by The Endless

See i think Batman is pure fantasy too. The thing that makes him unrealistic is that he is all those things in one package.

Of course it's possible to be one or maybe two of those things. But it is physically impossible to be that strong, that agile and that fast all in one package. Then a Einstein level genius and Sherlock Holmes like detective? And a master of dozens of different martial arts? Come on man lol.

Being Batman is like a teenagers fantasy. Well, any mans fantasy. That's exactly what he is; fantasy.

Again: it's an hyperbole, an exageration of a reality. Superman's not an hyperbole, it's pure fantasy because it's not based in anything real. It's just mythology, like the old greek and roman mythology. Just for this Batman is more realistic, but if you are incapable of understand what hyperbole, exaggeration or caricature means I can't do anything for you!

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by The Endless

See i think Batman is pure fantasy too. The thing that makes him unrealistic is that he is all those things in one package.

Of course it's possible to be one or maybe two of those things. But it is physically impossible to be that strong, that agile and that fast all in one package. Then a Einstein level genius and Sherlock Holmes like detective? And a master of dozens of different martial arts? Come on man lol.

Being Batman is like a teenagers fantasy. Well, any mans fantasy. That's exactly what he is; fantasy.

It isn't. It makes it hyper realistic. What makes it unrealistic is that he's everything at once. But the things he masters in can all be accomplished. A few of those things can even be accomplished at the same time. It's not anywhere near as fantastical as an alien from some planet who can fly and do the things he does.

Even if you say it's a fantasy. Fine. But it's a much more relatable fantasy than Superman that's for damn sure. He's human. Clark is an alien. End of story.

[Shikamaru]

Should the new Batman movies go fantastical? Yes and no. Instead, they should work to establish a perfect balance between fantasy and reality.

[The Endless]

I'm not saying Superman is more realistic than Batman. I'm simply saying Batman is unrealistic and is still very much in the realms of fantasy, just like Superman.

But depending on what your beliefs are, there is probably more chance of their being an alien species out in the vast expanse of the universe than there is of a human being being on the level of comic book Batman

[SuperFerret]

You guys need to look up what the Uncanny Valley is. Superman being wholly fantasy makes him more realistic than Batman is.