The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

[Webfoot Hero]

Originally Posted by Human Torch

At least now we won't have to deal with the "Killian was the Mandarin" nonsense anymore.

My favorite part was the Hammer cameo.I really hope they make use of him again.

Makes you wonder where they intend to go from here.

I wouldn't mind them using Justin Hammer for another film but I kinda think it won't happen.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Human Torch

At least now we won't have to deal with the "Killian was the Mandarin" nonsense anymore.

Yeah, Marvel retroactively dismissing a really great and creative adaptation of a character in Iron Man 3 simplifies things a lot.

[Loki882]

Marvel retroactively dismissing a twist that didn't work because the actual villain was less interesting/menacing than the drunk actor who was pretending to be the villain would be more accurate. If Killian would have been interesting, then the twist would have been fine, but he wasn't. Kingsley was a much better villain, and he wasn't even really the villain.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Loki882

Marvel retroactively dismissing a twist that didn't work because the actual villain was less interesting/menacing than the drunk actor who was pretending to be the villain would be more accurate. If Killian would have been interesting, then the twist would have been fine, but he wasn't. Kingsley was a much better villain, and he wasn't even really the villain.

Killian was a lot more interesting than what Kingsley was implied to be. Kingsley gave a great performance and he had a great voice, but in terms of story and themes Killian has a lot more going on for him.

[Loki882]

He was yet another rival businessman who wore a suit and had a grudge, just like the villains in the first two movies. So no, he wasn't that interesting.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Loki882

He was yet another rival businessman who wore a suit and had a grudge, just like the villains in the first two movies. So no, he wasn't that interesting.

There was a lot more to him than that. You're mostly talking about the surface stuff. Killian, on a narrative and thematic level, was a very interesting foil to Tony Stark. A man who started with nothing, took power he did not earn, and is motivated by a desire to reinvent himself as a great man and take everything he feels he is entitled to. It's a nice contrast to Tony Stark. Stane and Hammer weren't like that, and Hammer wasn't even the main villain in Iron Man 2, Vanko was. Besides some superficial similarities he wasn't much like any of those characters at all.

[Poni_Boy]

Originally Posted by The Question

Yeah, Marvel retroactively dismissing a really great and creative adaptation of a character in Iron Man 3 simplifies things a lot.

Killian wasn't the Mandarin. You're taking the context of his one line wrong. He was just Killian, head of AIM.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Poni_Boy

Killian wasn't the Mandarin. You're taking the context of his one line wrong. He was just Killian, head of AIM.

Nope. That's nonsense.

[Poni_Boy]

Originally Posted by The Question

Nope. That's nonsense.

Nope. You simply misinterpreted it.

[A Necessary Evil]

Or...Marvel did an alteration of a previously stated fact in a fictional work that modifies established continuity...and retconned a fact.

[Poni_Boy]

Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil

Or...Marvel did an alteration of a previously stated fact in a fictional work that modifies established continuity...and retconned a fact.

Or, you misinterpreted a line a dialogue. Highly successful movie studio with long term planning and multi-layered storylines trumps disgruntled fan over misinterpretation every day of the week. Twice on weekends.

[A Necessary Evil]

Oh you're right

So when Killian said "I AM THE MANDARIN" it meant "I'm just the dude who hired another dude to disguise himself as another dude while I blow your house up"

I guess when Tony Stark said "I AM IRON MAN" it means "i'm just some dude who makes suits for the real tony stark"

okay lol

[Webfoot Hero]

Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil

Oh you're right

So when Killian said "I AM THE MANDARIN" it meant "I'm just the dude who hired another dude to disguise himself as another dude while I blow your house up"

I guess when Tony Stark said "I AM IRON MAN" it means "i'm just some dude who makes suits for the real tony stark"

okay lol

Not even the same thing. Your argument has no legs as Poni Boy and Whiskey Tango have shown you're nothing but a disgruntled fan.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Webfoot Hero

Not even the same thing. Your argument has no legs as Poni Boy and Whiskey Tango have shown you're nothing but a disgruntled fan.

We're all equally disgruntled fans on this issue. That doesn't mean seeing Killian as The Mandarin wasn't a completely valid interpretation of the film. It also doesn't mean that Poni Boy's argument makes any sense. Which I really don't think it does.

[The Chris]

I always took the I am the mandarin line as simply an egotistical madman who has just straight up lost his mind. And in the end he was the man behind everything in Iron Man 3. He was the mastermind behind everything that happens to Tony and to the country in that film, and the one shot doesn't change that at all. The one shot doesn't really change anything from Iron Man 3, it adds to it. I mean it actually helps things make even more sense if anything. That Killian used a pre-existing myth and didn't just pull the mandarin name out of thin air, making it even easier for people to not even suspect that it was all a lie. Then the myth turns out to not only be real but still alive and growing back to what it was before Tony hurt them so much in the first Iron Man. I don't know. I don't see any bad in this at all. Everything I loved about the Iron Man 3 twist is still there. It still exists. If Kingsley ended up being the mandarin all along then I could see the whole what's the point of Iron Man 3 thing, but that doesn't feel like the case at all at the end of the one shot film.

[TheVileOne]

Does it really matter? It's not like we are going to see the "real" Mandarin or 10 Rings come up again.

So why couldn't they come up with a better story for the genuine article in Iron Man 3?

Seems to me this is a consolation prize for people that didn't like the Mandarin twist but it ultimately won't matter in the long run.

[Visualiza]

Originally Posted by The Question

There was a lot more to him than that. You're mostly talking about the surface stuff. Killian, on a narrative and thematic level, was a very interesting foil to Tony Stark. A man who started with nothing, took power he did not earn, and is motivated by a desire to reinvent himself as a great man and take everything he feels he is entitled to. It's a nice contrast to Tony Stark. Stane and Hammer weren't like that, and Hammer wasn't even the main villain in Iron Man 2, Vanko was. Besides some superficial similarities he wasn't much like any of those characters at all.

I commend you for fighting the good fight, but a lot of people have made up their minds on that and refuse to see the villains in the franchise for anything beyond what they wear to work. -_-

[Nathan]

I don't need Fu Manchu Mandarin, but I hated that IM3 Mandarin was basically just a disgruntled fan. Tony Stark initiated the birth of the Mandarin, simply because he didn't meet someone on the roof. Some may like that concept, I simply hated it.

[Visualiza]

^I don't see the whole disgruntled fan bit. His overarching scheme had nothing to do with Tony in any way, shape, or form. Heck, the only reason he attempted to bring Tony onboard in the first place is because Maya spilled the beans that he could probably stabilize Extremis. IMO, if Killian was just a bitter fanboy, everything he did would have tied back to either surpassing or embarassing Tony Stark, and most of all, explicitly letting Tony know that it was him all along. He went to pretty great lengths to stay behind the scenes, so it definitely wasn't that. If anything, he was a bigger 'fan' of Pepper than he ever was of Tony; his feelings/desires for her were the only emotions he harbored towards anyone.

[fixxxer]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

Some of us (a precious few, apparently) have been plenty happy all along.

Seconded. I love all things Mandarin at this point. Loved the way AHTK added layers to the mythos without needing to retcon anything.

[Nathan]

Thanks to the one-shot, I'm able to enjoy the reveal that the 1st Mandarin was just Trevor Slattery a lot more. Knowing that the actual Mandarin is still out there, really helps a lot. Especially since the one-shot allured that he's a more larger than life character. Not just a nerd turned rich, evil playboy.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Poni_Boy

Or, you misinterpreted a line a dialogue. Highly successful movie studio with long term planning and multi-layered storylines trumps disgruntled fan over misinterpretation every day of the week. Twice on weekends.

It's not a misinterpretation, and you're missing a key reason as to why:

Killian's parallel story arc to Tony's, and the whole damn theme of the movie. At the end of the film, Tony Stark basically says to the camera that Iron Man isn't defined by the suit and the gadgets, that ultimately he is defined by who Tony is as a person. He says at the end "I am Iron Man," meaning that with or without the suit, thats who he is as defined by the core of his character. Just like how The Mandarin isn't defined by the rings and the robes and the funny accent, he's defined by who he is, and as Killian says, at the core of his character he is The Mandarin.

Killian fills The Mandarin's role in the story and shares most of the same character beats, motivation, MO, and general personality. Even though he lacks the surface resemblance (until the shirt comes off and we see the dragon tattoos anyway, another clue as to him genuinely being The Mandarin), the film's own theme is that it's what's inside that counts, and deep down Killian is The Mandarin. He's certainly much more like the actual character of The Mandarin than some immortal Chines sorcerer like people keep suggesting.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by The Question

Nope. That's nonsense.

No. They didn't just do this for nothing.

Look at all the clues, There's more to it. This was ALWAYS ALWAYS the intent.

The after credit scene wasn't just for giggles. It was a clue. That the entire movie was Stark's recollection of events. And he was in therapy.

There was always going to be more to the Mandarin twist.

Trevor was always intended to be the Mandarin, Kingsley. And some way or another, he will still turn out to be the Mandarin

[The Question]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

No. They didn't just do this for nothing.

Look at all the clues, There's more to it. This was ALWAYS ALWAYS the intent.

The after credit scene wasn't just for giggles. It was a clue. That the entire movie was Stark's recollection of events. And he was in therapy.

There was always going to be more to the Mandarin twist.

That sounds like you're reaching, man. That's vague to the point of basically not being a clue. I really don't see any solid evidence that this was a plan they had while they were making Iron man 3. If it were, it would have been the post credit scene in Iron Man 3. Heck, it would have been on the Iron Man 3 DVD at least. This was almost certainly an afterthought.

[Poni_Boy]

Originally Posted by The Question

It's not a misinterpretation, and you're missing a key reason as to why:

Killian's parallel story arc to Tony's, and the whole damn theme of the movie. At the end of the film, Tony Stark basically says to the camera that Iron Man isn't defined by the suit and the gadgets, that ultimately he is defined by who Tony is as a person. He says at the end "I am Iron Man," meaning that with or without the suit, thats who he is as defined by the core of his character. Just like how The Mandarin isn't defined by the rings and the robes and the funny accent, he's defined by who he is, and as Killian says, at the core of his character he is The Mandarin.

Killian fills The Mandarin's role in the story and shares most of the same character beats, motivation, MO, and general personality. Even though he lacks the surface resemblance (until the shirt comes off and we see the dragon tattoos anyway, another clue as to him genuinely being The Mandarin), the film's own theme is that it's what's inside that counts, and deep down Killian is The Mandarin. He's certainly much more like the actual character of The Mandarin than some immortal Chines sorcerer like people keep suggesting.

Nope, you're just wrong. You can argue your interpretation till you're blue in the face. But you're wrong. Killian is not The Mandarin. Was not. Never was.