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Old 02-14-2014, 10:58 PM   #76
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

Posting top superhero movies again? okay

1. Avengers
2. IM1
3. Cap 1
4. TDK
5. IM3
6. TDKR
7. BB
8. Thor 1
9. Thor 2
10. IH
11. IM2

i didn't include Cap 2 yet
i want to see the final cut

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:00 PM   #77
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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not if he thinks that there might be a way to house his own consciousness within Rogers body; after losing his own enhanced form somehow. it's a storyline that has turned up in the comics once or twice.
Perhaps, but given how strong the Winter Soldier is, I would have thought that he'd have focused his attempts in doing that within Bucky's empty shell.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:03 PM   #78
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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But now you're being terribly reductive to Peggy's role in the MCU. I get that you're upset about the marginalization of Sharon in the movies, but the movies are different from the comics. The comics introduced Sharon before Peggy maybe, but the movies did the opposite, necessitated by the need to tell Steve's origin story from the beginning.

The movies and comics weren't going to be 100% in sync. The movies need to tell the stories that make sense within the cinematic universe, and it makes sense for Steve to still be palpably feeling Peggy's loss. It may also make sense to ease the movie audience into Sharon's introduction as a potential love interest in the future for Steve, to establish her as her own character separate and apart from Peggy.
Exactly how am I being reductive to Peggy?

Her relationship with Steve was mostly professional. They had strong feelings for one another, one they had the intention to pursue when the war is over and they weren't bound by anti-fraternization regs, but they were never in an actual romantic relationship.

And while Steve was gone, Peggy had A) moved on and B) gotten married, at least once.

So the healthy thing for Steve would be to move on.

And given that two years have passed for Steve, that's surely enough time.


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Old 02-14-2014, 11:11 PM   #79
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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Exactly how am I being reductive to Peggy?

Her relationship with Steve was mostly professional. They had strong feelings for one another, one they had the intention to pursue when the war is over and they weren't bound by anti-fraternization regs, but they were never in an actual romantic relationship.

And while Steve was gone, Peggy had A) moved on and B) gotten married, at least once.

So the healthy thing for Steve would be to move on.

And given that two years have passed for Steve, that's surely enough time.
I disagree with the bolded part. I think they were very much on the road to a relationship but were cut short just after it started.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:13 PM   #80
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Kind of like the MCU doesn't suffer from the lack of Black Panther and Captain Marvel and the Wasp, but people still would like to see them.
This is getting very close to arguing semantics, but Panther and Captain Marvel and Wasp's positions in the Marvel Universe are far closer to the top tier of superheroes than Sharon. They have their own unique origin stories, they're considered main/lead/co-lead characters in the comics, and they've each led the Avengers or Avenger teams if I'm not mistaken, and have had their own books… at least Panther and Capt. Marvel have.

Sharon's always been a supporting player. So that comparison doesn't work for me really.

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Exactly how am I being reductive to Peggy?

Her relationship with Steve was mostly professional. They had strong feelings for one another, one they had the intention to pursue when the war is over and they weren't bound by anti-fraternization regs, but they were never in an actual romantic relationship.

And while Steve was gone, Peggy had A) moved on and B) gotten married, at least once.

So the healthy thing for Steve would be to move on.

And given that two years have passed for Steve, that's surely enough time.
We keep coming back to this same argument, but basically, Steve's past vs. Steve's present is the story that they're telling, Steve's need to let go of the past while also confronting it head on. Peggy is an important part of that story, and they're showing it, i.e. Steve's moving on, onscreen for us. At least that's what I'm guessing.

But like I keep saying, we won't know until we see it for ourselves. It's all spec at this point and assumptions.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:16 PM   #81
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I disagree with the bolded part. I think they were very much on the road to a relationship but were cut short just after it started.
Right. And I think a lot of the development with Steve in this movie is dealing with unwillingness to move on even after two years.

Shortchanging his relationship with Peggy in the movies would not be beneficial for this franchise. I think too many people who watched the first movie would be upset if Peggy were just reduced to nothing. So they have Steve distancing himself from getting close to anyone outside of SHIELD, they have Steve avoiding intimacy and not dating so they can show us his process of moving on from Peggy.

Simple.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:22 PM   #82
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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I disagree with the bolded part. I think they were very much on the road to a relationship but were cut short just after it started.
On the road to. Not in.

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This is getting very close to arguing semantics, but Panther and Captain Marvel and Wasp's positions in the Marvel Universe are far closer to the top tier of superheroes than Sharon. They have their own unique origin stories, they're considered main/lead/co-lead characters in the comics, and they've each led the Avengers or Avenger teams if I'm not mistaken, and have had their own books… at least Panther and Capt. Marvel have.

Sharon's always been a supporting player. So that comparison doesn't work for me really.
The point stands. Just because the lack of something doesn't hurt a movie, doesn't mean we can't want to see them and lament their lack of involvement.

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We keep coming back to this same argument, but basically, Steve's past vs. Steve's present is the story that they're telling, Steve's need to let go of the past while also confronting it head on. Peggy is an important part of that story, and they're showing it, i.e. Steve's moving on, onscreen for us. At least that's what I'm guessing.

But like I keep saying, we won't know until we see it for ourselves. It's all spec at this point and assumptions.
I'm fairly positive that there has to be better ways to show Steve's past vs. Steve's present than showing Steve still pining after Peggy, even though it has been two years, and she's now married and over him.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:55 PM   #83
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

If the movie's goal is for emotional connectivity with the previous Captain America movie, then likely they couldn't tell the story without the Peggy/Steve connection in this one.

All I'm saying is save the frustration and disappointment until after the movie's out and whether or not things lived up to your expectations. See if things work from a character and thematic standpoint. And try to view this as a quasi-connected entity from the comics - it's similar but it's also different.

And with that, I'm out kiddos. Until next time.

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:23 AM   #84
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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Right. And I think a lot of the development with Steve in this movie is dealing with unwillingness to move on even after two years.

Shortchanging his relationship with Peggy in the movies would not be beneficial for this franchise. I think too many people who watched the first movie would be upset if Peggy were just reduced to nothing. So they have Steve distancing himself from getting close to anyone outside of SHIELD, they have Steve avoiding intimacy and not dating so they can show us his process of moving on from Peggy.

Simple.

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If the movie's goal is for emotional connectivity with the previous Captain America movie, then likely they couldn't tell the story without the Peggy/Steve connection in this one.
Except she's in the movie. No one is reducing her to nothing.

Her scene could be set in the period right after the Avengers, when Steve has decided to reunite.

They could tie up loose ends, share some thoughts, have closure, and move on.

It wouldn't be nothing, and it'd resonate with the audience without having to be a persistent plot tumor where Steve is wistfully looking at her picture every five minutes, which frankly sounds like what you want to see.

With as limited time as they have, dwelling on what could have been in the name of emotional connectivity when you've already got Steve's childhood friend now becoming his enemy seems frankly inefficient.

You say you want Sharon developed on her own, but you're fine with her not getting much screentime to do so.

You say you want Sharon developed on her own, but think she's guarding Steve on Peggy's orders, which reinforces her being perceived as Peggy's niece rather than show her in her own identity as an agent of SHIELD.

I just don't get you.

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:46 AM   #85
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Except she's in the movie. No one is reducing her to nothing.

Her scene could be set in the period right after the Avengers, when Steve has decided to reunite.

They could tie up loose ends, share some thoughts, have closure, and move on.

It wouldn't be nothing, and it'd resonate with the audience without having to be a persistent plot tumor where Steve is wistfully looking at her picture every five minutes, which frankly sounds like what you want to see.

With as limited time as they have, dwelling on what could have been in the name of emotional connectivity when you've already got Steve's childhood friend now becoming his enemy seems frankly inefficient.

You say you want Sharon developed on her own, but you're fine with her not getting much screentime to do so.

You say you want Sharon developed on her own, but think she's guarding Steve on Peggy's orders, which reinforces her being perceived as Peggy's niece rather than show her in her own identity as an agent of SHIELD.

I just don't get you.
Dude, you don't have to *get* me. And this feels like it's getting far testier and more argumentative than I intended.

I've laid out my case about Sharon Carter in this thread and in the Agent 13 thread.

Sharon's not as important a character to me as she is to you, I get that and I'm not going to apologize for that. However, I'm willing to give MCU Sharon a chance , regardless of her screentime, because I have not seen the movie yet!

I'm just speculating about her connections and how they're going to be used in the movie.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
She's going to be "connected" to Peggy, but the audience won't necessarily know that until the end…
In the meantime, whatever screen time she does have, maybe they are able to give her some personality and spark that, quite frankly, I feel is missing in the Brubaker comics. I already see something more with her personality in that two second clip from the UK trailer, to be honest, feisty and all.

I *want* to see Steve's emotional arc get just closure in this movie in regards to Peggy, and I want that to happen before bringing in Sharon Carter, because, yeah… otherwise it might feel like he's settling and replacing Peggy for the younger version.

If EVC's screentime amounts to basically what Natasha's was in IM2, then it might work out for *me* regardless.

But frustrating yourself and setting yourself up for disappointment about Sharon in this movie seems like a fruitless endeavor until you've actually seen the movie and how she's portrayed and written and brought into Steve's story. Period.

And now I'm really out.

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Old 02-15-2014, 12:59 AM   #86
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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And now I'm really out.
But it's MY turn to arguuuuuuue!

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Old 02-15-2014, 01:05 AM   #87
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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Right. And I think a lot of the development with Steve in this movie is dealing with unwillingness to move on even after two years.
Exactly. There is a reason that, even after two years, Steve says that the reason he didn't go out on Saturday night was that his 'barbershop quartet' is dead. A part of him is still stuck in the past, and the movie seems to be about reconciling the two. There's no way they would have the movie begin with him getting closure. Audiences would probably feel cheated by "It's been two years, he's over it", and screenwriters would want a chance to portray his difficulties (though I doubt it will be him crying and staring at old photos-that's reserved for Bucky ).

I do think that they could have introduced Sharon in a bigger role, though. However, they would have had to keep the relationship platonic for this movie, and probably not reveal her surname till the end. Otherwise, it would seem like Sharon was Peggy's 'replacement', which would be bad for everyone involved. But yeah, I would have been into him partnering with the mysterious Agent 13.

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Old 02-15-2014, 01:15 AM   #88
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

How about that bit from the Ultimates where he rebuilds his old record collection? This **** should be gradual. Why would you want to skip all the good stuff? To get to more punching? Why would anyone want to see Steve over everything and perfectly well adapted?

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Old 02-15-2014, 03:08 AM   #89
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

I've skimmed through everything because I feel like we're getting spoilery so I'm just scanning things but leave Suzanne alone... She's always right.

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Old 02-15-2014, 04:49 AM   #90
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

Something tells me though that we won't be getting a scene in this film like we had in "The Avengers" (albeit a deleted one) where we see Steve going through the records of his former teammates and seeing on how every one of them has passed away, other than Peggy..let alone him going through the city for the first time since having awoken.

I still don't know why they couldn't have kept that scene since it wouldn't take away from his arc in this film.

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Old 02-15-2014, 05:49 AM   #91
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I *want* to see Steve's emotional arc get just closure in this movie in regards to Peggy, and I want that to happen before bringing in Sharon Carter, because, yeah… otherwise it might feel like he's settling and replacing Peggy for the younger version.
I agree.

But you also think Steve's emotional arc in regards to Peggy should be taking up most of the movie.

So in effect, you are saying Sharon should be in the movie as less as possible.

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I *want* to see Steve's emotional arc get just closure in this movie in regards to Peggy, and I want that to happen before bringing in Sharon Carter, because, yeah… otherwise it might feel like he's settling and replacing Peggy for the younger version.
I agree.

But you also think Steve's emotional arc in regards to Peggy should be taking up most of the movie.

So in effect, you are saying Sharon should be in the movie as less as possible.

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Exactly. There is a reason that, even after two years, Steve says that the reason he didn't go out on Saturday night was that his 'barbershop quartet' is dead. A part of him is still stuck in the past, and the movie seems to be about reconciling the two. There's no way they would have the movie begin with him getting closure. Audiences would probably feel cheated by "It's been two years, he's over it", and screenwriters would want a chance to portray his difficulties (though I doubt it will be him crying and staring at old photos-that's reserved for Bucky ).

I do think that they could have introduced Sharon in a bigger role, though. However, they would have had to keep the relationship platonic for this movie, and probably not reveal her surname till the end. Otherwise, it would seem like Sharon was Peggy's 'replacement', which would be bad for everyone involved. But yeah, I would have been into him partnering with the mysterious Agent 13.
I don't really disagree with that.

But I don't think Steve's issues with the present and what is holding him back is limited to him and Peggy.

Steve has issues with America and how it has changed, with idealism giving way to cynicism, with how being in the service used to be noble.

Peggy just happens to be a tangible thing that he can confront. If he talks to her early on and gets his closure with her, that doesn't mean he'll be 100% adjusted. It just means he'll be beginning to move forward.

He'd still have all that less tangible stuff to deal with.

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Old 02-15-2014, 06:34 AM   #92
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

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Something tells me though that we won't be getting a scene in this film like we had in "The Avengers" (albeit a deleted one) where we see Steve going through the records of his former teammates and seeing on how every one of them has passed away, other than Peggy..let alone him going through the city for the first time since having awoken.

I still don't know why they couldn't have kept that scene since it wouldn't take away from his arc in this film.
Well Steve does visit a cemetery, so the feelings regarding lost teammates are still there.

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Old 02-15-2014, 06:47 AM   #93
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Perhaps, but given how strong the Winter Soldier is, I would have thought that he'd have focused his attempts in doing that within Bucky's empty shell.
Yes, but Cap hasn't been poked, prodded and mutilated like Winter Soldier. Plus, Skull has a vendetta and resentment towards Steve since the true SS formula worked on him without fault. And I doubt WS has the true SS formula in him, so there's another reason why Skull wouldn't want Cap dead just yet.

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Old 02-15-2014, 07:59 AM   #94
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I agree.

But you also think Steve's emotional arc in regards to Peggy should be taking up most of the movie.

So in effect, you are saying Sharon should be in the movie as less as possible.
Dude. You are totally projecting your own story frustrations onto Suzanne. That is clearly NOT what she said, nor what she meant.

In the marvel MOVIE UNIVERSE, the Peggy-Cap relationship looms large. Most people see it if not THE best written, acted and chemistry-laden romantic connection, then certainly among the best.

It was warm, funny, sexy and poignant. It was cut short before it could amount to anything more because the characters felt that the immediate task at hand superseded all other activities, including more in-depth romantic entanglements. The way Cap and Peggy handled it was noble. They put aside their own personal needs in the service of something greater.

In the present day, that relationship, yes, that LOVE, represents everything Steve gave up to become a Supersoldier. It is essentially the price he paid for getting everything he wanted in the first film, in terms of improving his physical body.

Nothing comes without a price, and it's hard to argue that when he was in Erskine's chamber, that Steve truly understood that he was giving up his entire life, and everyone he knew, and eventually the people he loved and fought beside.

THAT'S the emotional truth that Cap has to confront in the present day. WHAT HE HAS LOST, including any possibility of being able to be with Peggy, and what the future holds, especially the horrifying possibility of never getting old himself, and of never being able to have a normal relationship and life trajectory.

Sharon Carter may be an important character to you, and to the comic canon, but in this film, her storyline will not be explored very much, because Cap has so much unfinished emotional business with his PAST.

Just let April 4 get here!

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Old 02-15-2014, 08:47 AM   #95
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Dude. You are totally projecting your own story frustrations onto Suzanne. That is clearly NOT what she said, nor what she meant.

In the marvel MOVIE UNIVERSE, the Peggy-Cap relationship looms large. Most people see it if not THE best written, acted and chemistry-laden romantic connection, then certainly among the best.

It was warm, funny, sexy and poignant. It was cut short before it could amount to anything more because the characters felt that the immediate task at hand superseded all other activities, including more in-depth romantic entanglements. The way Cap and Peggy handled it was noble. They put aside their own personal needs in the service of something greater.

In the present day, that relationship, yes, that LOVE, represents everything Steve gave up to become a Supersoldier. It is essentially the price he paid for getting everything he wanted in the first film, in terms of improving his physical body.

Nothing comes without a price, and it's hard to argue that when he was in Erskine's chamber, that Steve truly understood that he was giving up his entire life, and everyone he knew, and eventually the people he loved and fought beside.

THAT'S the emotional truth that Cap has to confront in the present day. WHAT HE HAS LOST, including any possibility of being able to be with Peggy, and what the future holds, especially the horrifying possibility of never getting old himself, and of never being able to have a normal relationship and life trajectory.

Sharon Carter may be an important character to you, and to the comic canon, but in this film, her storyline will not be explored very much, because Cap has so much unfinished emotional business with his PAST.

Just let April 4 get here!
Just bolding the first part because ksb pretty much said word for word what I was going to log in and say

All I want is for CA:TWS to tell Steve's story effectively and emotionally. Looking how he moves on from the past while simultaneously getting hit with a metal fist to his face from his not-so-dead BFF. Peggy is also a part of that too, as is
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
HYDRA
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That's it.

Oh... and, JUST LET APRIL 4TH GET HERE!

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Old 02-15-2014, 08:52 AM   #96
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

@Ksb

Maybe its a personal difference but I have a hard time viewing what Steve and Peggy had as a relationship or love. So I have a hard time seeing losing her as the thing he has issues about.

Certainly a huge emotional factor, but one, IMO, best resolved rather than kept to linger.
And having Steve have closure with Peggy doesn't diminish him still having trouble adjusting the modern era, politically, ideologicly, and so on.

But, whatever. Agree to disagree.

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Old 02-15-2014, 08:57 AM   #97
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Just bolding the first part because ksb pretty much said word for word what I was going to log in and say
Well, you seemed like you were the scenario of Steve visiting Peggy after the Avengers, confronting her and getting closure with her, before skipping ahead two years to the present where he's working for SHIELD, would be shortchanging her.

At least, that's what it sounded like.


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Old 02-15-2014, 09:12 AM   #98
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

Teekay or anyone, how is the old age makeup and CGI enhancement for Peggy Carter in the film, does it look convincing or is it Weyland Prometheus bad?

Also, does she have a poignant moment with Steve when they finally dance because I think that would be a great moment to tie the two Cap films together.


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Old 02-15-2014, 10:30 AM   #99
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@Ksb

Maybe its a personal difference but I have a hard time viewing what Steve and Peggy had as a relationship or love. So I have a hard time seeing losing her as the thing he has issues about.

Certainly a huge emotional factor, but one, IMO, best resolved rather than kept to linger.
And having Steve have closure with Peggy doesn't diminish him still having trouble adjusting the modern era, politically, ideologicly, and so on.

But, whatever. Agree to disagree.
I don't want to overstate myself. Cap/Peggy is really, really important. But it is not the ONLY important psychological hurdle that we want to see Steve adjust to. I think it is REPRESENTATIVE of all the myriad of things that Steve Rogers gave up to become something greater than the little skinny guy from Brooklyn.

Being a superhero must be great. Having a beautiful, strong and exceptionally handsome body must be pretty awesome. But if a character has an ounce of inner life, they want to love and be loved, to connect, and to have the opportunity to mourn lost comrades, and a changed world. Among all the current crop of Marvel heroes, Steve Rogers is the most thoughtful and self-aware.

I'm a Joss Whedon fan from waayyy back. And he said something once that has always stuck with me. To paraphrase, as a writer, he likes to give his characters exactly what they really, really want, but with terrible consequences. THAT'S what makes good drama--THAT'S the dilemma Steve Rogers finds himself in right now.

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Old 02-15-2014, 10:31 AM   #100
coluanprime
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 14

possibly huge spoilers from the soundtrack...
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
1. Mission to Moscow (4:42)
2. Opening Titles (3:43)
3. Back in Training (3:03)
4. Fast and Fury-ous (2:24)
5. City Under Siege (5:38)
6. Friendly Fire (3:19)
7. The Pursuit of Justice (1:59)
8. S.H.I.E.L.D. Blows Up (1:@#)
9. Civil War (3:51)
10. Alexander Pierce is the Red Skull (0:03)
11. The Falcon and The Snowman (4:12)
12. Going Down (2:32)
13. Old-Fashioned (1:37)
14. Comrades in Arms (2:47)
15. Finale (8:19)
16. Assignment Miami Beach (2:12)
17. The Date (1:46)
18. End Credits (15:41)
19. Quill's S.O.S.* (1:15)

*Composed by Tyler Bates


these are ostensibly from the UK Amazon store but when I checked the link, it said the item had been removed...

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