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Old 02-04-2014, 10:47 PM   #101
Senator Pleasury
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

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Originally Posted by AnneFan View Post
Hehehe yeah. He didn't seem to have any manoeuvre planned, just the jump. Maybe he intended to jump over him and attack from behind...but was instead caught and thrown into steps.
Yes. In fact, that's what happened.

Batman has many times attacked thugs from above in movies and comics, so I don't see the confusion here. When he jumped over Scarecrow's van (in TDK) I didn't know if he had something planned. How could I, through a monologue? I just saw it worked (assuming that it's true that if someone falls on a moving vehicle, it would make it come to a dead stop). In the case of the black Joker thug, he was stronger and faster than Batman thought - which made him a dangerous rival, after Batman seemed to control and outfight every other Joker thug. That doesn't mean he didn't plan anything before jumping.


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Old 02-16-2014, 07:55 PM   #102
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

The Killing Joke as a similar goon. Maybe it inspired the movie.

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Old 02-16-2014, 09:27 PM   #103
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It's my favourite fight of the live-action movies, just down and dirty plus brutal. Batman getting whooped. Better than any other fight, including his fight with Bane in TDKR.

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Old 02-17-2014, 12:39 AM   #104
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In the context and flow of the film its fine..
Outside of it its meh..the stiffness of the suit and small stature of Keaton is on full display..the way he takes the hit and the sound the punches generate really give the "batman is wearing hockey pads" vibe..

Again in the context of the film its great..the toss of batman into a roll, and back to standing sequence is ace.

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Old 02-17-2014, 12:49 AM   #105
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

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In the context and flow of the film its fine..
Outside of it its meh..the stiffness of the suit and small stature of Keaton is on full display..the way he takes the hit and the sound the punches generate really give the "batman is wearing hockey pads" vibe..

Again in the context of the film its great..the toss of batman into a roll, and back to standing sequence is ace.
I agree with the last part (except that I think every scene ever created should be measured within the context of its movie), and in fact it's why I don't believe the suit looked specially stiff. Batman could do plenty in this fight, such as what you describe. Also Keaton (if that was Keaton and not a stunt) only looked short because the thug was supposed to be much bigger, and thus a menace.

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:21 PM   #106
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Default Re: Batman vs the black Joker thug

I actually was only made aware of this thread's existence because of a squabble in the Rises forum. So, for once it served a purpose.

Yes, this is a great scene. Just a few things that people chimed in on earlier:

Burton's Batman is not so much cartoony, as he is a spectacle. For Burton, that spectacle is gothic and post-industrial, art deco hellacious fun, but that is pretty fun for anyone, really. Elfman's score reflects this as it drifts between two elements, one is a very heroic, operatic sound, and the other is not so much cartoony as a circus (though in Returns it actually has more tragic elements and intentionally skin-crawling oddness, though still in that big, endearingly over-the-top operatic way).

The Burton movie is like a circus. Things happen because emotionally they feel right and provide a great entertainment that compliment his vision. So, Batman can get his ass kicked by Ray Charles ( ) and then kill him without a second thought. It feels right and makes for a great sequence. Why was this goon up there waiting for Joker, if this seemed like a last minute change of plans after Batman stole his balloons? For the same reason why ninja-sword goon is standing behind a fence earlier in an area where he had no idea that Batman would be waiting to start a fight with the other thugs...because it is cool and fun.

Burton's movies deal with dark, brooding emotions, particularly Returns, but it is all very storybook logic that, at least in the first entry, is supposed to leave you on a high, like a three-ring circus reflected in the more boisterous parts of the score.

As for comparisons to Bane, I will say that this Batman is in a weakened state. He hasn't been Batman for years (albeit, I think that may mean 6-7 years, as there are hints throughout the movie that he did not hang up his cape over night). And Bane is established to be as well trained as Batman. There is more of a logic to it, which also makes it more plausible for fans to nitpick a fair critique: why didn't Batman have his instant KO sleeping agent with him from later in the movie? Such plausibility to why Batman would get defeated welcomes a more critical mind, but I still think it works.

Ray Charles? I love it.

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Old 11-14-2017, 02:06 AM   #107
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I think this scene is great. It shows Batman being what he is, a man. He doesn't have superpowers. The Cathedral finale is such a contrast to the rest of the movie where Batman is seemingly too cunning to be overpowered or seem weak. The Batwing crash and the ascent up the belfry staircase certainly hindered him immensely. Even so, He takes out the Acrobat Goon with ease, and with a little idiocy and luck Lawrence the Goon is dispatched, which seems to distract Batman. The 3rd and perhaps Joker's best Goon (Black Goon) was strong enough to launch Batman through a wall. Batman quickly recovered and immediately engaged the Goon with a kick. He is still agile and quick enough to evade the pulley being swung at him. It's so heavy it destroys a column.

I like the setting. It's dark and in disrepair, the remaining bell swinging back-and-forth, swaying to the Waltz. A dangerous environment to be fighting in with a rather hazardous opening beneath the bell. The brick falling down the staircase abyss reminds us and raised the stakes. The interlude with Vicki and Joker and the Waltz music playing adds something. It is just the icing on the cake. Burton was influenced by the Hunchback of Notre Dame and Vertigo in this scene in particular, the setting is similar to HoND, and the staircase is like Vertigo's.

The second part of the fight shows a bit of comedy, with the Goon searching for Batman within the belfry and getting frustrated. Batman ringing the bell and leaping towards the Goon is another nod to Hunchback, But I think he underestimated the power of the Goon when he leapt. Did he ring the bell or did the Goon ring it? Another throw this time through a set of stairs looks like it hurt. The shot of the Goon dragging Batman by the throat also shows how disoriented Batman is, he can't do anything but hold on. Yet another throw into a brick column and a roll only to have his attempt at aggression shrugged off by the Goon and pummeled. It seems as if the last punch is a low blow which makes Batman hunch over, and when he is shoved into the bell it's like he's done for.

Throughout the fight, Batman doesn't make a single noise or groan of pain. Even after a serious crash from the air and a trudge up the Belfry staircase he remains stoic and unwavering with his numerous injuries and fatigue. He is certainly tough. The only noise Batman makes is when he seems to have perished beneath the bell and the Goon is checking to find out. The shot of Batman's legs coming out from the darkness and the karate yell he makes never gets old. I found it comical and a "Batman" moment.

The Goon can punch the bulletproof armor of the Batsuit and not react like others who have tried, so he must be on another level. I think Batman certainly felt all of those shots to the abdomen but the Batsuit definitely softened all of the blows somewhat. In fact Batman seems to invite the Goon to punch the armor after the roll.

All in all this fight is great for the short bit that it is. The Goon certainly made it entertaining and kept Batman on his toes. Too bad he wasn't more prominently featured but he put up a memorable fight and Batman was in trouble.

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