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Old 02-27-2014, 08:27 AM   #276
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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My suspicion is also my greatest fear - that this is all about the X-Men and they're working toward an X-Men Vs. FF. That means the box-office for FF alone is relatively meaningless because the real point is to set up that film.

. . . maybe the reason Trank said the synopsis wasn't true is because they're not created by the government . . . they're created by Trask Industries . . .
If the two Disney/Marvel IPs can be combined despite being licensed under two separate contracts, then I would agree that the long term goal for FOX would be to bring in some of that sweet, sweet crossover money. Because the stupid fans who are going to see it anyway just want to see superheroes from different movies joining forces, regardless of how little sense it makes.

But I can't see FOX (or Singer) allowing Trank's All New, All Different FF to infect the established X-Men series if it flops. The film is certainly capable of doing Green Lantern numbers at the box office, though the losses to FOX won't be as great given the tight reigns they are likely to keep on the budget. Like GL, I expect this one to just fade away - hopefully over to Marvel in this case.

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Old 02-27-2014, 08:35 AM   #277
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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If the two Disney/Marvel IPs can be combined despite being licensed under two separate contracts, then I would agree that the long term goal for FOX would be to bring in some of that sweet, sweet crossover money. Because the stupid fans who are going to see it anyway just want to see superheroes from different movies joining forces, regardless of how little sense it makes.

But I can't see FOX (or Singer) allowing Trank's All New, All Different FF to infect the established X-Men series if it flops. The film is certainly capable of doing Green Lantern numbers at the box office, though the losses to FOX won't be as great given the tight reigns they are likely to keep on the budget. Like GL, I expect this one to just fade away - hopefully over to Marvel in this case.
Singer may very well not like it, but he reports to higher-ups at Fox. While he has a lot of say, there are still limits to his authority.

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Old 02-27-2014, 09:02 AM   #278
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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I don't believe we have any evidence either that they can or that they can't, but my suspicion is there would be no wording in the initial contracts to prevent that because, in an ideal world where Marvel can trust Fox to do good things such crossovers would be cool - as they are in the MCU. And technically, in a way, Daredevil and Electra were already a 'cross-over'.
Afaik Eletrkra would have been bundled with DD, like all his various villains & supporting characters would have been? I know Feige's comment on Elektra 'still at fox' casts doubt on that, but maybe he wasn't sure of that when making the comment. Given when the DD rights elapsed it would fall more into line with Elektra having reset his counter (if the 7 to 8 year thing is about right).

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My best hope from a legal perspective would be that Marvel could make the claim that such a drastic departure from the FF canon would be damaging to the property, but unless they've got some good wording in the contract (and, again, the big problem there is such eventualities were probably never seriously considered or protected against in the original contracts because Fox and Marvel were buddies moving forward to create the kind of thing Marvel is now doing on its own), I'm afraid it could be a tough legal battle to win for Marvel.

Who knows, maybe some of the delays were related to behind-the-scenes legal wrangling.
Yeah, we still don't know either way I would think Disney would be all over them though if the contracts don't allow for it (and I can't see them negotiating a deal if they don't), so maybe that's why Millar backtracked hastily and Kinberg was careful in how he worded his comments about it all as well.

Well, That's what I'm hoping at any rate.

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Old 02-27-2014, 09:07 AM   #279
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Well, That's what I'm hoping at any rate.
Hey, hope after shattered hope, it's what we've been living on, isn't it?

We survived this long with only crappy FF movies. We'll make it longer if we have to.

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Old 02-27-2014, 10:17 AM   #280
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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And all that matter is that it's a 'good film' right? That's what people keep saying.

The scary thing is a complete bastardization could make an interesting story.

Government creates FF to battle emerging threat to national security - Victor Von Doom who has just taken control of Latveria - and sends them on a covert mission to depose Doom.

Government then turns FF against another threat to national security - Charles Xavier and his army of Mutants.

But when Galactus arrives, the FF and X-Men must join forces to battle that threat to the entire planet.

If you don't give a s*** about the FF ( as many around here don't ) that could actually be a pretty cool series of movies.
Ok then. Government feels that their troops need a severe morale boost so they enlist the help of blonde singing diva Victoria Sharpay Doom to entertain them.

However, the government feel that maybe one female isn't enough and that she needs to be part of a double act. Where can they find another singing sensation? Why, at the Xavier Academy for Unfortunately Gifted Students.

Professor X announces that they'll be holding auditions one morning, but unfortunately the class clown TellerReed has fitted a remote control device to Xavier's wheelchair and takes him out for a spin in front of the students. As punishment for this, Xavier sends TellerReed to Mr Logan, the school singing teacher, whom TellerReed has already dismissed as overly camp for having starred in school productions such as Oklahoma or Les Mis.

Upon arriving at Mr Logan's music room, TellerReed sees a picture of the girl the government has already lined up as his potential partner: It's the beautiful Victoria Sharpay Doom. TellerReed is smitten and suddenly decides to shape up and put in the effort to win the part and win the girl of his dreams. However, before he can do that, he has to contend with rival and would-be rock star Ben Grimm whom Mr Logan has already primed for the part.

So yes, if you don't give a s*** about the FF, that could also be a pretty cool series of movies.

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Old 02-27-2014, 10:35 AM   #281
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Hey, hope after shattered hope, it's what we've been living on, isn't it?

We survived this long with only crappy FF movies. We'll make it longer if we have to.
Longer would seem to be the case as things currently stand. I suspect I may well be more concerned about my incontinent pants leaking than any FF film by the time any hope we hold bears fruit...

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Old 02-27-2014, 10:50 AM   #282
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Ok then. Government feels that their troops need a severe morale boost so they enlist the help of blonde singing diva Victoria Sharpay Doom to entertain them.

However, the government feel that maybe one female isn't enough and that she needs to be part of a double act. Where can they find another singing sensation? Why, at the Xavier Academy for Unfortunately Gifted Students.

Professor X announces that they'll be holding auditions one morning, but unfortunately the class clown TellerReed has fitted a remote control device to Xavier's wheelchair and takes him out for a spin in front of the students. As punishment for this, Xavier sends TellerReed to Mr Logan, the school singing teacher, whom TellerReed has already dismissed as overly camp for having starred in school productions such as Oklahoma or Les Mis.

Upon arriving at Mr Logan's music room, TellerReed sees a picture of the girl the government has already lined up as his potential partner: It's the beautiful Victoria Sharpay Doom. TellerReed is smitten and suddenly decides to shape up and put in the effort to win the part and win the girl of his dreams. However, before he can do that, he has to contend with rival and would-be rock star Ben Grimm whom Mr Logan has already primed for the part.

So yes, if you don't give a s*** about the FF, that could also be a pretty cool series of movies.
Fox's HR department is, no doubt, writing up an offer of employment for you at this very moment.

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Longer would seem to be the case as things currently stand. I suspect I may well be more concerned about my incontinent pants leaking than any FF film by the time any hope we hold bears fruit...
I would like to get enough information to know if I can really write this off. If I can become convinced that it really will be as lousy as we suspect, I could at least relax and enjoy the ride with very low expectations.

Right now I keep vacillating wildly from thinking we could still get something pretty cool to feeling that everything is pointing to a turd.

Hopefully we'll get some real interviews soon that will give us an idea of what they're shooting for at least. (though I expect Fox will keep a tight lid on that because they think anything they tell us could turn somebody off - not realizing that we're pretty badly turned off already).

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Old 02-27-2014, 10:55 AM   #283
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Ok then. Government feels that their troops need a severe morale boost so they enlist the help of blonde singing diva Victoria Sharpay Doom to entertain them.

However, the government feel that maybe one female isn't enough and that she needs to be part of a double act. Where can they find another singing sensation? Why, at the Xavier Academy for Unfortunately Gifted Students.

Professor X announces that they'll be holding auditions one morning, but unfortunately the class clown TellerReed has fitted a remote control device to Xavier's wheelchair and takes him out for a spin in front of the students. As punishment for this, Xavier sends TellerReed to Mr Logan, the school singing teacher, whom TellerReed has already dismissed as overly camp for having starred in school productions such as Oklahoma or Les Mis.

Upon arriving at Mr Logan's music room, TellerReed sees a picture of the girl the government has already lined up as his potential partner: It's the beautiful Victoria Sharpay Doom. TellerReed is smitten and suddenly decides to shape up and put in the effort to win the part and win the girl of his dreams. However, before he can do that, he has to contend with rival and would-be rock star Ben Grimm whom Mr Logan has already primed for the part.

So yes, if you don't give a s*** about the FF, that could also be a pretty cool series of movies.
That would be amazing & not in a good way

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Old 02-27-2014, 12:44 PM   #284
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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If the two Disney/Marvel IPs can be combined despite being licensed under two separate contracts, then I would agree that the long term goal for FOX would be to bring in some of that sweet, sweet crossover money. Because the stupid fans who are going to see it anyway just want to see superheroes from different movies joining forces, regardless of how little sense it makes.

But I can't see FOX (or Singer) allowing Trank's All New, All Different FF to infect the established X-Men series if it flops. The film is certainly capable of doing Green Lantern numbers at the box office, though the losses to FOX won't be as great given the tight reigns they are likely to keep on the budget. Like GL, I expect this one to just fade away - hopefully over to Marvel in this case.
This is an old one (from 2009), but it may shed some light on the matter, wherein Zak Penn talks about pitching an FF/X-Men crossover and the Fox suits blocked it:

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/t...men-and-f.html

Key quotes there might be this:

According to Sci Fi Wire, Penn told an audience at the festival that he ran into frustration while writing the last two X-Men movies because he wanted to include a few of the other characters - the Fantastic Four, for instance - but was prevented by studio executives.

Speaking about his work on the Avengers he had said: "They're doing Captain American and Thor first, and then Avengers is coming out. They (Marvel) want to see that they're all connected, not like the Fantastic Four can't come into the X-Men world, like I was told."


So why was he told that? I think it unlikely the suits were c#ck blocking Penn for no good reason, so perhaps the suits simply knew that they couldn't?

Hopefully...

Thing is, as you noted, they were separate deals for separate IP's, and both have their own time sensitive constraints that 'cross pollination' could mess up and could be abused to extend the rights.

FF deal is getting close the wire and you aint got anything to work with? Put them in an X-Men flick, and vice versa.

Hopefully,when the deals were done back in the 90's the Marvel lawyers had the sense to recognise that possibility, both were treated fully as separate IP's, so neither contract allows for any of the characters specifically covered by the one deal to be used used in the other.

Hopefully Fox's suits back then didn't recognise the potentially lucrative pot of Gold that 'cross pollination' could give them (going by Penn they certainly didn't) so they didn't pursue any such clause that would allow them to do it either.

I guess time will tell on this one, but for the moment I will remain sceptical they can legally pull this stunt.

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Old 02-27-2014, 12:57 PM   #285
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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This is an old one (from 2009), but it may shed some light on the matter, wherein Zak Penn talks about pitching an FF/X-Men crossover and the Fox suits blocked it:

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/t...men-and-f.html

Key quotes there might be this:

According to Sci Fi Wire, Penn told an audience at the festival that he ran into frustration while writing the last two X-Men movies because he wanted to include a few of the other characters - the Fantastic Four, for instance - but was prevented by studio executives.

Speaking about his work on the Avengers he had said: "They're doing Captain American and Thor first, and then Avengers is coming out. They (Marvel) want to see that they're all connected, not like the Fantastic Four can't come into the X-Men world, like I was told."


So why was he told that? I think it unlikely the suits were c#ck blocking Penn for no good reason, so perhaps the suits simply knew that they couldn't?

Hopefully...

Thing is, as you noted, they were separate deals for separate IP's, and both have their own time sensitive constraints that 'cross pollination' could mess up and be abused to extend the rights.

FF deal is getting close the wire and you aint got anything to work with? Put them in an X-Men flick, and vice versa.

Hopefully,when the deals were done back in the 90's the Marvel lawyers had the sense to recognise that possibility, both were treated fully as separate IP's, so neither contract allows for any of the characters specifically covered by the one deal to be used used in the other.

Hopefully Fox's suits back then didn't recognise the potentially lucrative pot of Gold that 'cross pollination' could give them (going by Penn they certainly didn't) so they didn't pursue any such clause that would allow them to do it either.

I guess time will tell on this one, but for the moment I will remain sceptical they can legally pull this stunt.


Nice find! That is an encouraging tidbit. The timing is also interesting. That was about 2 months before Marvel bought Disney and then Fox (highly coincidentally) announced their reboot.

Hopefully it is as simple as it seems and the contract prevents crossovers (at least without Marvel's consent - which could be a logical way to write the contract and give Marvel the right of refusal without completely preventing the possibility).

But it is also possible more was going on. If Fox was intending to try to get money from Marvel (presumably before they even knew about the buy-out), they might want to not get involved in any plans to use them in and X-Men film.

Or, they could have seriously been considering the reboot at that time (which a literal reading of their conveniently timed press release would lead one to believe).

Hopefully it's a simple case of cross-overs being prohibited without permission (and let's pray Marvel has the good sense not to give them permission).

I'd feel a lot better if that were the case. Also, such an agreement would give Marvel more leverage in potentially having Fox set their film in MCU with some character sharing.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:00 PM   #286
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

And I think you raise a good point in that crossovers may be prevented so that rights can't be muddied.

Would a 10 second cameo of The Thing in an X-Men film extend the FF rights for another 8 years, for example.

If nothing else, I think that kind of possibility might suggest the issue was raised and addressed in the contracts in some form.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:05 PM   #287
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

So if they can't do crossovers with X-Men (and that means no TellerReed being Professor X's "model" student) then Trank and Fox are really banking on FF being a success in its own right. But it seems like a sinking ship and they'll have to face the same obstacle that "The Incredible Hulk" did with Ang Lee's Hulk.

However, unlike TIH, which was both in the MCU by then and also a more faithful telling of the story, Trank's FF is further from the source material than Story's.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:09 PM   #288
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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This is an old one (from 2009), but it may shed some light on the matter, wherein Zak Penn talks about pitching an FF/X-Men crossover and the Fox suits blocked it:

http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/t...men-and-f.html

Key quotes there might be this:

According to Sci Fi Wire, Penn told an audience at the festival that he ran into frustration while writing the last two X-Men movies because he wanted to include a few of the other characters - the Fantastic Four, for instance - but was prevented by studio executives.

Speaking about his work on the Avengers he had said: "They're doing Captain American and Thor first, and then Avengers is coming out. They (Marvel) want to see that they're all connected, not like the Fantastic Four can't come into the X-Men world, like I was told."

So why was he told that? I think it unlikely the suits were c#ck blocking Penn for no good reason, so perhaps the suits simply knew that they couldn't?

Hopefully...

Thing is, as you noted, they were separate deals for separate IP's, and both have their own time sensitive constraints that 'cross pollination' could mess up and could be abused to extend the rights.

FF deal is getting close the wire and you aint got anything to work with? Put them in an X-Men flick, and vice versa.

Hopefully,when the deals were done back in the 90's the Marvel lawyers had the sense to recognise that possibility, both were treated fully as separate IP's, so neither contract allows for any of the characters specifically covered by the one deal to be used used in the other.

Hopefully Fox's suits back then didn't recognise the potentially lucrative pot of Gold that 'cross pollination' could give them (going by Penn they certainly didn't) so they didn't pursue any such clause that would allow them to do it either.

I guess time will tell on this one, but for the moment I will remain sceptical they can legally pull this stunt.
Great find! There's another quote from Mr. Penn in the comments:

I was also misquoted regarding Fox and the Fantastic Four. To clarify, I simply pointed out that other studios can't do crossovers like they had in the comics, but Marvel Studios can. I never asked Fox to do anything, nor did they stop me, those legal issues are not even up for debate." -Zak Penn

Creatives like Penn, Kinberg and Millar often don't have the whole picture and spectulate with "blue sky" ideas that may not be possible under the existing agreements. In a recent interview, Kinberg mentioned the possibility of working on an X-Men tv show or anime, when it is clear that FOX has no TV rights involving the property.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:10 PM   #289
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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So if they can't do crossovers with X-Men (and that means no TellerReed being Professor X's "model" student) then Trank and Fox are really banking on FF being a success in its own right. But it seems like a sinking ship and they'll have to face the same obstacle that "The Incredible Hulk" did with Ang Lee's Hulk.

However, unlike TIH, which was both in the MCU by then and also a more faithful telling of the story, Trank's FF is further from the source material than Story's.
If they really are limited, I would hope Fox would recognize the value of tying themselves to the Marvel juggernaut, and maybe they can work out some character sharing.

If FF was clearly tied to the MCU, that could certainly help their opening day numbers with fans of all the other properties showing up to see that chapter in the larger story. Seems like a no-brainer from a business viewpoint, but I kind of doubt they'd ever be able to iron out the details so that they were satisfactory to both sides.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:15 PM   #290
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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But it is also possible more was going on. If Fox was intending to try to get money from Marvel (presumably before they even knew about the buy-out), they might want to not get involved in any plans to use them in and X-Men film.
Penn states it was the last 2 X-Men films he worked on where he was told 'no' to using the FF, which would have been X2 & X3 (they snuck in a 'blink and you'll miss it' Franklin reference in X2, nothing at all in X3.

As the FF was already active for Fox by X3, and Marvel Studios didn't even exist then either, I don't think angling for a deal was the reason for stopping it at that time. They just said no.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:18 PM   #291
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Fox set their film in MCU with some character sharing.
This cast of The Fantastic Flop better not be anywhere near the MCU. Hopefully MARVEL has more respect for their own characters then this ****

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:20 PM   #292
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If they really are limited, I would hope Fox would recognize the value of tying themselves to the Marvel juggernaut, and maybe they can work out some character sharing.

If FF was clearly tied to the MCU, that could certainly help their opening day numbers with fans of all the other properties showing up to see that chapter in the larger story. Seems like a no-brainer from a business viewpoint, but I kind of doubt they'd ever be able to iron out the details so that they were satisfactory to both sides.
It seems though that it would be a great loss of face now to scrap plans for Trank's FF and hand it over to Marvel. Sure, it would also be a huge loss to Fox as well if the FF flops big time, but at least they would be holding onto the rights. It seems that pride is playing a large part in all of this.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:21 PM   #293
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Penn states it was the last 2 X-Men films he worked on where he was told 'no' to using the FF, which would have been X2 & X3 (they snuck in a 'blink and you'll miss it' Franklin reference in X2, nothing at all in X3.

As the FF was already active for Fox by X3, and Marvel Studios didn't even exist then either, I don't think angling for a deal was the reason for stopping it at that time. They just said no.
Yeah, I think an additional read, plus Zarex's quote seem to remove any doubt or ambiguity.

I'm still afraid to get my hopes up, but it does seem that there's some real information from a reliable source there.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:22 PM   #294
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

Fox are never ever ever ever ever ever going to let the FF into the MCU as long as they own the rights and Marvel would never ever ever ever ever allow the FF to be in the MCU as long as Fox owns them.

Your best hope to see them in the MCU is if production falls apart before filming.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:24 PM   #295
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Great find! There's another quote from Mr. Penn in the comments:

I was also misquoted regarding Fox and the Fantastic Four. To clarify, I simply pointed out that other studios can't do crossovers like they had in the comics, but Marvel Studios can. I never asked Fox to do anything, nor did they stop me, those legal issues are not even up for debate." -Zak Penn

Creatives like Penn, Kinberg and Millar often don't have the whole picture and spectulate with "blue sky" ideas that may not be possible under the existing agreements. In a recent interview, Kinberg mentioned the possibility of working on an X-Men tv show or anime, when it is clear that FOX has no TV rights involving the property.
Ah I didn't see Penn's additional comment there. That he seems convinced the legal issues 'are not even up for debate' suggests he does know the score on that one (and having moved on to Marvel as well by that time he'd be ideally placed to have an informed opinion on the whole matter).

Not gonna breathe a sigh of relief just yet, but encouraging

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:25 PM   #296
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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It seems though that it would be a great loss of face now to scrap plans for Trank's FF and hand it over to Marvel. Sure, it would also be a huge loss to Fox as well if the FF flops big time, but at least they would be holding onto the rights. It seems that pride is playing a large part in all of this.
I'm not thinking hand-over, I'm just thinking they could work a deal in which FF is broadly set in the MCU and Marvel could use Galactus etc. and Fox could drop some references to things going on in the MCU plaus maybe have access to the Inhumans, Black Panther etc.

The details might be a little difficult to work out, but I think it could be done if both sides were willing to work on it.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:28 PM   #297
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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Fox are never ever ever ever ever ever going to let the FF into the MCU as long as they own the rights and Marvel would never ever ever ever ever allow the FF to be in the MCU as long as Fox owns them.

Your best hope to see them in the MCU is if production falls apart before filming.
That may very well be true, but if so, I think it's short-sighted on both sides.

They're stronger together than they are separate.

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:36 PM   #298
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

Disney ought to send Fox a peace offering. Maybe allow them to use one of their actresses in the movie as a central character. Someone like... I don't know... just off the top of my head... Ashley Tisdale?

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:48 PM   #299
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

What is your thing with that woman ?

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Old 02-27-2014, 01:56 PM   #300
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Default Re: Fantastic Four reborn! - - Part 11

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I'm not thinking hand-over, I'm just thinking they could work a deal in which FF is broadly set in the MCU and Marvel could use Galactus etc. and Fox could drop some references to things going on in the MCU plaus maybe have access to the Inhumans, Black Panther etc.

The details might be a little difficult to work out, but I think it could be done if both sides were willing to work on it.
Do you really think Disney will want to deal with the all of the negative & hatred FOX is dealing with right now with letting these four into the MCU ? The hatred will be legend wait for it dary fantastic. Its best for Disney & MARVEL to just wait. Before getting this specific cast into any part of the MCU

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