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Old 04-02-2014, 11:36 AM   #101
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

That would be akin to Bruce Wayne being a gun manufacturer and enforcing his no-gun rule as Batman.

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Old 04-02-2014, 11:44 AM   #102
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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That would be akin to Bruce Wayne being a gun manufacturer and enforcing his no-gun rule as Batman.
Not really. In reality, no matter how hard one works for peace, war can sometimes come about and to defend others, an otherwise peaceful person might take up arms.

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Old 04-02-2014, 11:50 AM   #103
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That would be akin to Bruce Wayne being a gun manufacturer and enforcing his no-gun rule as Batman.
As I said, you cannot use preconception here. The God of War is this new Wonder Woman mythology doesn't need to be someone how crave destruction and want to spread caos.

Ares in this book was probably close to the roman version of the god of war then the greek one. Yet even this is a bad comparisson because as I said, gods in this run are almost new entities, with only names conection them to ancient mythology.

In a more practical answer, Diana could have a "let those who desire peace prepare for war" attitude, and that is something that can actually make the paradox of peace seeking warrior stop being a paradox.

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Old 04-02-2014, 01:43 PM   #104
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Anyone here ever read Stephenson's CRYPTONOMICON? He makes a nice point of putting a lampshade on something in Greek mythology. Ares is the god of War. Athena is also the goddess of War, along with wisdom, and crafts (tecnology as Stephenson argues convincingly to my mind). So, why the redundancuy? Well, as he frames it, Ares is really not that well thought of in the world of Greek myths. Even though he's the begotten son of Zeus and Hera he's not really presented well in the myths. He's never shown to be particularly noble or bright. Also his offsping in the world of mortals may at best be termed mass murders at worst, serial killers. There are a few stories of certain of the well known heroes having to confront and kill these nasty children of Ares with the help of Athena. Ares as Stephenson puts it was the mythological incarnation of the mindless agression and brutality of war. It's interrsting then that so often in these myths the truly great heroes of Greek myth have a relationship with the goddess of wisdom, war and technology. Athena (sprung fully from Zeus' head after he consumed the Titaness Metis, another way of saying "wisdom" I might add) seems to represent the cunning and wisdom required to properly wield the forces of war for the greater good, and not just the mindless abject destruction of Ares.

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Old 04-02-2014, 01:59 PM   #105
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That's why I'm saying you're misinterpreting what that means in Azzarello's run.

Wonder Woman can be the God of War and still advocate for peace.
Warfare is the absence of peace. War is several acts of warfare.
Therefore war is not peace.

Wonder Woman may not like it, you may not like it, but if she were to act in her capacity of God of War (ie spread warfare) it fundamentally contravenes her role as Ambassador of Peace (seek diplomatic solutions).

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Old 04-02-2014, 03:17 PM   #106
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Wonder Woman may not like it, you may not like it, but if she were to act in her capacity of God of War (ie spread warfare) it fundamentally contravenes her role as Ambassador of Peace (seek diplomatic solutions).
There is nothing in the book that supports it. Again, you assume that the mission, or at least a necessity, of the God of War is the spread warfare, an idea that came from outside souces. While you keep using concepts from other works to judge this book in particular, your analyze will always be flawed.

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Old 04-02-2014, 04:54 PM   #107
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Ares, when not approaching Diana of his own volition, was found at a warzone and terrorist attack.

And some quotes from him "Thine enemies must be eliminated, lest they return for thine own head! Revenge is not an option to leave a foe!"

and whe talking about war itself "well, we do what we can to keep the world spinning" "open your eyes and see what they hold the world will be ruled by war. It's inevitable"

Sounds like war is War's job.

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Old 04-02-2014, 05:02 PM   #108
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Ares, when not approaching Diana of his own volition, was found at a warzone and terrorist attack.

And some quotes from him "Thine enemies must be eliminated, lest they return for thine own head! Revenge is not an option to leave a foe!"

and whe talking about war itself "well, we do what we can to keep the world spinning" "open your eyes and see what they hold the world will be ruled by war. It's inevitable"

Sounds like war is War's job.
Much like arguing that Wonder Woman is not Greek because she was made of Clay and not natural born, after having it pointed out that Themyscira is Amazonian and therefore Greek....really grasping at straws to say the Effn Greek God of War's job is not War

Of course, Wondy in that position turns it on it's head, conquers it because she is intended to undo war.

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Old 04-02-2014, 05:52 PM   #109
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Actually, she did no such thing. Read #25 again.

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Old 04-02-2014, 05:58 PM   #110
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Ares, when not approaching Diana of his own volition, was found at a warzone and terrorist attack.

and whe talking about war itself "well, we do what we can to keep the world spinning" "open your eyes and see what they hold the world will be ruled by war. It's inevitable"
Yet he wasn't provoking any of the said conflicts and attacks. He was just there. His relationship with war is not entirely defined, but it's been pointed more than once in this run that the gods are a reactive force, and not an active one. War himself said this in the same dialogue you quoted above:

"Brother [Apollo], our fate, it's not up to us. It's always been in mortal hands, open your eyes...".

He also said this in the same issue: "No war... that's a grand idea". Although it's hard to say what he meant by that. But from the continuation of the dialogue, I'd say that in the least he doesn't believe that possible.

Ares is Wonder Woman is a tired god. He used to see the "good" parts of War. Honor, glory, self-sacrifice... and in his view those things are gone from modern warfare. That's why he seeks someone to take his mantle, he doesn't want it anymore.

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And some quotes from him "Thine enemies must be eliminated, lest they return for thine own head! Revenge is not an option to leave a foe!"
And what's the meaning of this? It's not to promote violence, quite the opposite. We could argue the merit of stopping violence by using violence, but that's the underline principle that guides War. But don't take my words for it: "The purpose of war is to end conflict. You must strike".

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Sounds like war is War's job.
It is, but not in the way most people would think. As I already stated, this god of war doesn't see war as a way to spread misery, destruction or even more conflict. He is also not the driving force of human conflict, more like an observer.

With all that in mind, Diana take on the role is open. She can be many different things, and have different views of how warfare should be seeing. I believe I already said she could have a "peace through strength" attitude, like the romans, that for all the wars they fought, they also created on the most peaceful periods in european history.

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Old 04-02-2014, 06:15 PM   #111
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Ah, but War also raises an army against the First Born, am army of all the soldiers who never died, as they were soldiers that continued to follow him. You're right that the relationship is ill defined, but if you look at Hell, for example, whilst in hell, all of the real appeared to be an extension of Hell himself.

Also, is #29 out? Because did they establish whether Diana remains the God of War? She didn't want the position and Apollo said he would abolish it. I guess Apollo's probably dead anyway.

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Old 04-02-2014, 07:12 PM   #112
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Ah, but War also raises an army against the First Born, am army of all the soldiers who never died, as they were soldiers that continued to follow him. You're right that the relationship is ill defined, but if you look at Hell, for example, whilst in hell, all of the real appeared to be an extension of Hell himself.

Also, is #29 out? Because did they establish whether Diana remains the God of War? She didn't want the position and Apollo said he would abolish it. I guess Apollo's probably dead anyway.
Yes, #29 is already out. I'll won't spoil anything, but the next issues will certainly bring a lot to this discussion.

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Old 04-02-2014, 08:06 PM   #113
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Yes, #29 is already out. I'll won't spoil anything, but the next issues will certainly bring a lot to this discussion.
Indeed it will. I just put it down...it was highly enjoyable. What a great read however issue #30 will definitely polarize viewpoints here based on the prior comments.

In her rich 75 year long history Wonder Woman's evolutionary arch has made several shifts, and rightfully so. As sentient beings we must learn to adapt in order to survive...to grow and change with each passing experience. Although there has been some dramatic (if not questionable) changes in how the character responds to any given situation, at the core however Wonder Woman's message has truly remained. Simply because you take up arms doesn't make you a war monger but rather it's the necessary evil that allows ones message to be heard from an even wider platform. For some the message of peace can only be heard through the cries of war...but in that moment, what better way to show your enemy the folly of their ways than through personal experience.

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

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Old 04-04-2014, 10:49 AM   #114
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

I was looking at this again and thought it'd be a good place to post it.

William Moulton Marston's notes and H.G. Peter's concept sketch of the original WW:



Link to bigger version:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2...hcvo1_1280.jpg

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Old 04-04-2014, 11:00 AM   #115
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

If someone could transcribe that cursive, that'd be cool and much appreciated.

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Old 04-04-2014, 11:11 AM   #116
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If someone could transcribe that cursive, that'd be cool and much appreciated.
This is the most I could get:

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Dear Doctor Marston

I slapped these two out in a hurry. The eagle is tough to handle as when in perspective or in profile he doesn't show up clearly- The shoes look like a stenographer's. I think the idea might be incorporated as a sort of Roman contraption.

Peter.


Dear Pete

I think the gal with the hand up is very cute. I like her skirt, legs, hair. Bracelets okay and boots these probably will work out. See other suggestions enclosed. ^no on these! See suggestions enclosed for eagle....(?) I suggest may work better in curved or slanting stripes red and white. With eagle's wings above or below breasts as per enclosed? Leave it to you.

Don't we have to put a red stripe around her waist as belt? I thought Gaines wanted it - don't remember. Circlet will have to go higher- more like crown. See suggestions enclosed.

See you Wednesday morning. William.


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Old 04-04-2014, 11:34 AM   #117
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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This is the most I could get:
Wow thank you very much!

Such a cool little timecapsule that. Little did those two know they were constructing an icon.

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Old 04-04-2014, 11:49 AM   #118
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Such a cool little timecapsule that. Little did those two know they were constructing an icon.
It's really fascinating looking back now!

I've been reading "Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters and the Birth of the Comic Book" by Gerard Jones, about the creation of these characters around that time and there's an interesting section about Marston, who he was at the time, and how he was recruited by DC and how successful it all turned out to be.


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Old 04-04-2014, 11:58 AM   #119
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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It's really fascinating looking back now!

I've been reading "Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters and the Birth of the Comic Book" by Gerard Jones, about the creation of these characters around that time and there's an interesting section about Marston, who he was at the time, and how he was recruited by DC and how successful it all turned out to be.
I always love this photo of Jack Kirby. So effn badass.


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Old 04-06-2014, 05:42 AM   #120
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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It's really fascinating looking back now!

I've been reading "Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters and the Birth of the Comic Book" by Gerard Jones, about the creation of these characters around that time and there's an interesting section about Marston, who he was at the time, and how he was recruited by DC and how successful it all turned out to be.
That does actually sound like it would be an engrossing read. I will need to pick it up.

From left to right:
(l to r) William Moulton Marston, H. G. Peter, Sheldon Mayer, Max Gaines (1942)

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Old 04-06-2014, 09:46 AM   #121
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Yes, #29 is already out. I'll won't spoil anything, but the next issues will certainly bring a lot to this discussion.
I've read it!

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Old 04-06-2014, 10:49 AM   #122
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

Why must I do this?

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Old 04-06-2014, 10:53 AM   #123
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman

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Why must I do this?
Do what?

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Old 04-07-2014, 01:40 AM   #124
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Default Re: 1941-2016: 75 Years of Wonder Woman



Wonder Woman #30

Wonder Woman, the God of War, takes command of the deadliest army ever! The Amazons are back, and they have some scores to settle…


Hmm...

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Old 04-09-2014, 10:55 AM   #125
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Pretty much what I said: "It is, but not in the way most people would think. As I already stated, this god of war doesn't see war as a way to spread misery, destruction or even more conflict. He is also not the driving force of human conflict, more like an observer.

With all that in mind, Diana take on the role is open. She can be many different things, and have different views of how warfare should be seeing. I believe I already said she could have a "peace through strength" attitude, like the romans, that for all the wars they fought, they also created on the most peaceful periods in european history."

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