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Old 04-20-2014, 03:47 AM   #1
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Default So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

I like Batman as well, but ultimately I'm a Superman fan, and there are people who prefer Batman to Superman. Some Superman fans do not like The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel. I haven't read it, but I've seen the clip from the animated film where Batman defeats Superman. I hate it because Frank Miller makes Superman out to be an arrogant, self-righteous guy, and deserves that punishment that Batman gives him. Everyone is like, "Batman won, the only one who was able to defeat that self-righteous alien!"

I don't know anyone that likes Superman and Batman equally. You either like one better than the other.

Given that Goyer and Nolan, clearly like Batman better, and Snyder seemed to compromise by saying, "Yes, this would make Superman so much more relevant."

It's like saying Batman is relevant, but Superman is not, and this poor secondary hero (who used to be the most popular) needs help....to be as 'cool' as Batman.

With these recent interviews with Snyder last week, I'm really worried. If you want a man...or a woman to direct Superman, that person should be passionate about it, but Snyder seems to me like he likes Batman more. He was reluctant to direct Man of Steel before. He had no problem with Batman, not to mention how the structure and style of his film was so similar to Nolan's Batman trilogy.

I did not feel like this Superman developed as well as the Bruce Wayne character did in Batman Begins. They didn't explain Clark's motives, why he wanted to be a hero, and what is sole purpose was. Yeah, it's to help people, but what was it that motivated him? We didn't have much dialogue from Clark in the first 50 minutes of the movie. Superman is supposed to be the 'king daddy' as Snyder put it, but I really felt like this fresh new take on Superman has now made it look like Superman is the second best hero. We see Superman fight Faora, the tall giant, and Zod, and smashing into buildings. The film did not seem to indicate that Superman wanted to help people.

I'm not trying to argue about who is better, Batman or Superman, but what I fear the most if Snyder is a bigger fan of Batman than Superman, that seems to me like he wouldn't mind and agree to having Superman take the beating.

Like saying, "Superman is cool, but let's face it, he's not as cool as Batman. Superman is so boring because he's too powerful, but Batman is more realistic and relevant."

Even when Superman sort of became unpopular after the release of Tim Burton's Batman (1989), in the end, even if you were a Batman fan, and not a fan of Superman, to everyone, Superman was still considered the ultimate hero in the end. Batman is dark, and more violent, whereas Superman will not kill. Even though Batman was more popular by 1989, Superman was still considered the ultimate hero. This was common knowledge. In Kindergarten I knew this, it wasn't until the 1st grade when I became a Superman fan after watching Superman III.

I think the reason this film was not as successful as it should have been it its own right was because it was quite a slave to the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, everything in terms of the style, writing and filmmaking, and because you had him and Goyer on board, and Goyer clearly stated that Superman is not "innately cool as Batman."

Superman didn't really standout on his own so much in Man of Steel, that's what I think where this film lacked. There was something missing about the character. He's supposed to be very protective and always puts everyone else before him.


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Old 04-20-2014, 03:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Elephant in the room: People overwhelmingly think Batman is cooler.

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Old 04-20-2014, 03:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

I don't think it's a secret that Snyder is a Batman fan, but I didn't see anything in that interview that was any cause for concern.

Besides, the interviewer also writes for a Batman fan site, so that explains why most of those questions were geared more towards him.

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Old 04-20-2014, 04:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

I have no idea if Snyder is more of a batfan than a superfan. I reckon we'll never know unless we can see inside his brain. He's stated he's a fan of The Dark Knight Returns, which I find worrisome considering it butchered superman.

There's parts of me that fully expect the movie to use a number of elements from TDKR, except with superman being less in favour with the government. I am steeling myself against all the trailers and posters with those shots of batman beating on superman that people love so much. I'd be genuinely shocked if they didn't play that up. Batman is, after all, a personification of the unbeatable human sprit and I doubt that angle will be ignored, even if it's used subconsciously. It's not a bad thing really...for batman. He's the Everyman in ways that superman can never be, so it's natural to root for him and his conflict with superman is a good arc for him.

It's unfortunate for superman though and is the reason he's the type of character that does better in solo efforts. He can't really shine next to a human because human instincts tell us to root for the human. In short, I expect this movie to please batfans more than superfans. I fully expect an obvious batman bias. The batfan in me will enjoy seeing a new version on the screen encountering odds no movie batman has ever encountered before. The superfan in me will hope that there are still some decent superman scenes for Cav-el to do his thing and that they don't make Supes as unlikable as the Dark knight Returns Supes. I'll also keep hoping for another solo supes movie in which he doesn't have to come second to anyone.

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Old 04-20-2014, 04:13 AM   #5
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

He's stated a few times (prior to landing MOS) that Batman is his favorite superhero. I don't think that's changed, but I do think he has a newfound respect and admiration for Supes.

It won't be unlike what happened when Timm and co. took on Superman; these will essentially be Batfans trying to resurrect Superman for the modern audience. In certain areas it shows, but I think they're mindful of how close fans are keeping an eye on how they treat Big Blue henceforth.

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Old 04-20-2014, 04:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

I remember Snyder said he loved Batman at Comic Con in 2012, but...Jesus..."favorite superhero"? Have the link?

I mean, my God, wouldn't it be more suitable if they chose a Superman fan?

I was never confident even in the interviews where, when Snyder was first hired, he said, "I've been a fan of the character for a long time, and I've followed him over the years. He's definitely the king of all superheroes."

I mean I know how enthusiastic Singer was when he was directing Superman Returns. But God, even though Superman is Singer's favorite superhero, his X-Men movies were so much better, as more passionate he was about Superman, his Superman Returns movie bombed terribly.

My point is, Jesus, this film, chances are would have been better, had they had a director who was crazy about Superman.

This is certainly a burden that we have to live with through this century.

Back in the 70's up to the 90's, even once Batman reached popularity, Superman became yesterday's hero to a majority, but Superman was still considered the king, and the better hero, leader, and the one that gave hope. Someone you could look up to.

I don't feel like the modern audience feels this way anymore nor knows that Superman is capable of this goodness. Now it seems people see Batman as this inspiration, what Superman was once known for.

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Old 04-20-2014, 04:43 AM   #7
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Snyder's personal favorites should not matter as long as he is not involved in writing the story.

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Old 04-20-2014, 04:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

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Superman doesn't really standout on his own so much in Man of Steel, that's what I think where this film lacked. There was something missing about the character. He's supposed to be very protective and always puts everyone else before him.
He put the entire human race over himself when he surrendered to Zod, I mean that was a pretty big part of the film, don't know what you're going on about.

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Old 04-20-2014, 05:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

It's never explained why he wants to be a hero. We got a physical Superman this time, and Snyder delivered that. What we need to see now is Superman being a boss. Cool lines like "You're a monster Zod, and I'm going to stop you."

He doesn't do that much speaking. Zod did most of the talking, fair enough, but I wish Superman could have had some more threats toward him.

If you notice in the comics, or in animated series or animated films, example, Superman: Unbound, Superman does a lot of talking when it comes to confronting the villains and Brainiac. I think it's important that Superman speaks.

While Cavill did more speaking than Routh, that was an improvement, however he still seemed to be like a quiet type.

I thought his best speech was in the scene prior to stopping the world engine. "This ship is powered by something called a phantom drive. It bends space. Zod's ship uses the same technology. If we can get the two drives to collide with another (...) So if we open up this doorway, then theoretically, they should be pulled back in. And if I don't stop the world engine over the Indian Ocean, the (what was it?) will continue to expand."

Great speech. Other than that, and the interrogation scene with Lois, sadly too short though, the following part where he speaks to Hamilton and General Swanwick."

"Let's put our cards under the table, General. You're scared of me because you can't control me. You don't. And you never will. But that doesn't mean I'm your enemy."

So before the final showdown with Zod, Zod gives his famous speech, Superman is pretty silent. Even during the mid-battle, Zod says, "There's only one way this ends Kal. Either you die or I do."

The only boss-speech that Routh gave in Superman Returns were just "I see an old man's sick joke...You have something that belongs to me." That was it, that along with a physical Superman was missing.

Reeve had more dialogue than Routh or Cavill.

I mean if they would write such scenes such as in Justice League Unlimited, the final episode.

Superman is at his best, not only physically owning Darkseid, but speechwise.

"That man won't quit as long he can still draw a breath. None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a different problem."

"I feel like I've been made in a world full of cardboard. Always taking constant care not to break someone. To break someone! Never allowing myself to lose control. Even for a moment. Someone...could die. But you can't take it, can't you big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose, and show you just how powerful I really am..."

That was pure awesomeness. Confronting the villain in a boss way. It's relevant, shows Superman is human and cool. Even people who aren't fans of Superman can relate to Superman in that scene. Another thing is the self confidence. I want to hear Superman speaking more to the villains.

Anything that would work such as "Don't do that or I will..." or something along the lines of the comics or animated media incarnations.

Also from Batman-Superman: Public Enemies, one of his most human moments while punching Mongul, "I'M SICK! *PUNCH*...OF LEX-LUTHOR! *PUNCH*"

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Old 04-20-2014, 06:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

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It's never explained why he wants to be a hero.
Because he wants to save people. He doesn't need a reason like his parents getting killed.

That's how Superman the character is, he was born a hero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWTJIBGNId0

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Old 04-20-2014, 06:57 AM   #11
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Who cares who he's bigger fan of? As long as he's a fan of both.
Not sure why no one ever references interviews where snyder comments on his thoughts on superman. Safe to say he thinks the character is 'bigger' and more 'more' than any of the marvel characters.

Fans asking such questions imo frames the state of mind of a good many dc fans right now. Something that will again yield an incorrect reception of the film. People so interested in things they want, and think matter, that the film itself won't get a fair assessment if said one element falls short of their expectation, in this case 'who looks better?'. Not so much different from what happened last time.

I personally wouldn't care if batman or superman wiped the floor with the other(not going to happen) or came out 'looking cooler' if only the story/movie was great into itself. I've had this mentality reading the various comics that have come out on the issue over the years, and I will here.

This same question framed differently reads like this: "I wonder if Joss Whedon is a bigger fan of 'avenger 1' vs this other avenger, doesn't that concern you all?" Or 'Jeph Loeb is maybe a bigger fan of batman given his various tpbs....so his Superman/Batman books have me concerned about...' about what exactly? If they will be good, or if they will fan service one side enough? Or has that now become the measure of good.

I just don't think it's a good look for fans imo.

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Old 04-20-2014, 06:58 AM   #12
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Because he wants to save people. He doesn't need a reason like his parents getting killed.

That's how Superman the character is, he was born a hero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWTJIBGNId0
But if you look at STM or watch Smallville. He's somewhat reluctant to be a hero, but we know he wants to save people. It's clear.

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:01 AM   #13
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

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Who cares who he's bigger fan of? As long as he's a fan of both.
Not sure why no one ever references interviews where snyder comments on his thoughts on superman. Safe to say he thinks the character is 'bigger' and more 'more' than any of the marvel characters.

Fans asking such questions imo frames the state of mind of a good many dc fans right now. Something that will again yield an incorrect reception of the film. People so interested in things they want, and think matter, that the film itself won't get a fair assessment if said one element falls short of their expectation, in this case 'who looks better?'. Not so much different from what happened last time.

I personally wouldn't care if batman or superman wiped the floor with the other(not going to happen) or came out 'looking cooler' if only the story/movie was great into itself. I've had this mentality reading the various comics that have come out on the issue over the years, and I will here.

This same question framed differently reads like this: "I wonder if Joss Whedon is a bigger fan of 'avenger 1' vs this other avenger, doesn't that concern you all?" Or 'Jeph Loeb is maybe a bigger fan of batman given his various tpbs....so his Superman/Batman books have me concerned about...' about what exactly? If they will be good, or if they will fan service one side enough? Or has that now become the measure of good.

I just don't think it's a good look for fans imo.
To me, Man of Steel just felt to me like Snyder and Goyer tried to make Superman look less, and simple next to Batman, like yeah Superman is good, he's cool, but not as interesting as Batman. This is the second superhero that emerged in comic books....lie.

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:08 AM   #14
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But if you look at STM or watch Smallville. He's somewhat reluctant to be a hero, but we know he wants to save people. It's clear.
Smallville was a different take on the character, Superman was not supposed to be like that. He was also pretty dumb in Smallville. MOS had an accurate representation of what Superman is supposed to be, born a hero. That Kill Bill scene explains it perfectly.

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

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To me, Man of Steel just felt to me like Snyder and Goyer tried to make Superman look less, and simple next to Batman, like yeah Superman is good, he's cool, but not as interesting as Batman. This is the second superhero that emerged in comic books....lie.
That's what it looked like to you? And they were doing it with batman in mind?

I for one think they were trying to make superman look more interesting. Less boring and predictable as the previous films have consistently conveyed. Someone that audiences can relate to(the key to making spiderman 'interesting') and also someone that can have dynamic action and not just lift things all day.

To each their own.

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Now Snyder and Goyer have a conspiracy to destroy Superman.

Great.

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That might have been perhaps the most amazing thing I've ever read on these forums. In a bad way. Wow.


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Old 04-20-2014, 09:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

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Who cares who he's bigger fan of? As long as he's a fan of both.
Not sure why no one ever references interviews where snyder comments on his thoughts on superman. Safe to say he thinks the character is 'bigger' and more 'more' than any of the marvel characters.

Fans asking such questions imo frames the state of mind of a good many dc fans right now. Something that will again yield an incorrect reception of the film. People so interested in things they want, and think matter, that the film itself won't get a fair assessment if said one element falls short of their expectation, in this case 'who looks better?'. Not so much different from what happened last time.

I personally wouldn't care if batman or superman wiped the floor with the other(not going to happen) or came out 'looking cooler' if only the story/movie was great into itself. I've had this mentality reading the various comics that have come out on the issue over the years, and I will here.

This same question framed differently reads like this: "I wonder if Joss Whedon is a bigger fan of 'avenger 1' vs this other avenger, doesn't that concern you all?" Or 'Jeph Loeb is maybe a bigger fan of batman given his various tpbs....so his Superman/Batman books have me concerned about...' about what exactly? If they will be good, or if they will fan service one side enough? Or has that now become the measure of good.

I just don't think it's a good look for fans imo.
I think you're downplaying the concerns about this a little too much. While I think this "Snyder purposely portrayed superman as he did in MOS because of some bias" stuff is way off base, some other concerns seem legit. If a person is anticipating a movie in part because their favorite character is in it, is it really outlandish for them to enjoy that movie less if it's obviously in favor of another character? Even if people like both characters, the presence of a bias can effect the movie as a whole. Instead of two well-rounded characters, the movie has one great character and one so-so character to make the other look good. Personally, I'm entering a state of resignation in regards to this because I fully expect bat-bias, but the degree of it will affect my enjoyment of the movie. Also, it should be noted that what I mean by "bat-bias" isn't simply about who wins whatever fight they have. I'm talking about a bias that influences which character gets the best lines/scenes/attention and most compelling portrayal overall.

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Old 04-20-2014, 09:57 AM   #18
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I like Batman as well, but ultimately I'm a Superman fan, and there are people who prefer Batman to Superman. Some Superman fans do not like The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel. I haven't read it, but I've seen the clip from the animated film where Batman defeats Superman. I hate it because Frank Miller makes Superman out to be an arrogant, self-righteous guy, and deserves that punishment that Batman gives him. Everyone is like, Batman one, the only one who was able to defeat that self-righteous alien.

I think that when it comes to Batman or Superman, you either like one better than the other. I don't know anyone that likes them equally.

Given that Goyer and Nolan, clearly like Batman better, and Snyder seemed to compromise by saying, "Yes, this would make Superman so much more relevant."

It's like saying Batman is relevant, but Superman is not, and this poor secondary hero (who used to be the most popular) needs help....to be as 'cool' as Batman.

With these recent interviews with Snyder last week, I'm really worried. If you want a man...or woman to direct Superman, that person should be passionate about it, but Snyder seems to me like he likes Batman more. He was reluctant to direct Man of Steel before. He had no problem with Batman, not to mention how the structure and style of his film is so similar to Nolan's batman trilogy.

I did not feel like this Superman in Man of Steel, and the story succeeded as well as the development of the Bruce Wayne character did in Batman Begins. They didn't explain Clark's motives, why he wanted to be a hero, and what is sole purpose was. Yeah it's to help people. We didn't have much dialogue from Clark in the first 50 minutes of the movie. Superman is supposed to be the king daddy as Snyder put it, but I really felt like this fresh new take on Superman has now made it look like Superman is the second best hero. We see Superman fight Faora, the tall giant, and Zod, and smashing into buildings. The film did not seem to indicate that he wanted to help people.

I'm not trying to argue about who is better, Batman or Superman, but what I fear the most if Snyder is a bigger fan of Batman than Superman, that seems to me like he wouldn't mind and agree to having Superman take the beating.

Like saying, "Superman is cool, but let's face it, he's not as cool as Batman. Superman is so boring because he's too powerful, but Batman is more realistic and relevant."

Even when Superman sort of became unpopular after the release of Burton's Batman (1989), in the end, even if you were a Batman fan, and not a fan of Superman, to everyone, Superman was still considered the ultimate hero in the end. Batman is dark, and more violent, whereas Superman will not kill.

I think the reason this film was not as successful as it should have been it its own right, because it was quite a slave to the success of Nolan's Batman trilogy, and because you had him and Goyer on board, and Goyer clearly stated that Superman is not "innately cool as Batman."

Superman doesn't really standout on his own so much in Man of Steel, that's what I think where this film lacked. There was something missing about the character. He's supposed to be very protective and always puts everyone else before him.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:19 AM   #19
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It really doesn't matter which character Snyder prefers. His number one priority is to make a good movie.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:25 AM   #20
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Geez. Some of you Superman fans are coming off as really paranoid.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:33 AM   #21
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Geez. Some of you Superman fans are coming off as really paranoid.
So much this. Probably the most insecure fans in the world.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:33 AM   #22
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Geez. Some of you Superman fans are coming off as really paranoid.
This isn't just directed at you, but I find it fascinating when people say this and someone always does, like clockwork.

Why do people think these types of complaints from Superman fans keep coming up? Why aren't there concerns like this from batfans? Why aren't they paranoid? It's because they don't need to be. They know batman will come out fine. If these concerns from superman fans are so unfounded and outlandish, why do they keep cropping up and why aren't there concerns from batfans that Snyder will make Superman look better than him? It's because there's no need or precedence for it. If these concerns were baseless, we either wouldn't see them at all or we'd see them from both batman and superman's fanbases.

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So much this. Probably the most insecure fans in the world.
And why is that? See above.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:37 AM   #23
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I think you're downplaying the concerns about this a little too much. While I think this "Snyder purposely portrayed superman as he did in MOS because of some bias" stuff is way off base, some other concerns seem legit. If a person is anticipating a movie in part because their favorite character is in it, is it really outlandish for them to enjoy that movie less if it's obviously in favor of another character? Even if people like both characters, the presence of a bias can effect the movie as a whole. Instead of two well-rounded characters, the movie has one great character and one so-so character to make the other look good. Personally, I'm entering a state of resignation in regards to this because I fully expect bat-bias, but the degree of it will affect my enjoyment of the movie. Also, it should be noted that what I mean by "bat-bias" isn't simply about who wins whatever fight they have. I'm talking about a bias that influences which character gets the best lines/scenes/attention and most compelling portrayal overall.
If by that you mean, pretty much the way it's always been in the canon than you most likely aren't in luck. If Stark met up with 'a christ like farm boy'(as many of these purist might describe the latter), I'd expect it go the same way when it comes to lines and up one-ing. If you have a character that is infinitely charismatic/sarcastic/witty and angry, that's no doubt the way it would go, especially when their motivation to do what they do is more self made.

This would be like seeing Roarsach sit in a diner with one of the 'goody goody' characters in that same film and expect the latter to have the 'better lines'. If anything it serves as a testament to characterization. This particular situation throws into question just what it is fans want from superman. If they want that 'guy' then that comes with playing a type of role in this particular discourse.
The minute Goyer has superman stepping outside of that to get the better of the other in the verbal game, is the minute purists besmirch him yet again for trying to make the character something he "isn't" just to appease the greater audience..and failing according to them.

All they can do is stay true to the material in an honest way. No doubt resulting in peoples true feelings on the matter coming out.
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That being said, there is a paradigm in which superman get's the best of batman in this particular regard but it doesn't happen that often. Granted if this is the same superman that danced around Lennox at the end of MOS, anything is possible. I for one think Cavill(as a person) and Snyder's direction will yield someone that will hold his own. This isn't the guy in/from Superman Returns but rather a more matter of fact (less perfect) man. So anything is possible.

This other stuff about compelling and scenes and what not is up in the air. I think Loeb in his book of the same title presented the matter pretty well early on, in which Superman get's shot with a kryptonite bullet by a superman enemy they both fall into a grave and superman's dying body is used as a shield for a bat bomb for escape then make their way to the cave with batman needing superman's dying strength to get past various traps etc...
I do think this being a film with superman's greatest rogue and not batman's will play a factor. I also think this being batman's debut will argue for the latter however.

As for this other stuff about people wanting their guy to come out on top. I personally don't subscribe to that sort of thing. Perhaps when reading the DC vs Marvel trades but I would personally hope a quality movie/story would prevail amongst all else. I can only imagine the type of person whom, upon receiving an compelling clever plot, thought it all for nothing due to fan service qualms......etc. I think that would be a shame.

Lastly, I think Snyder is a huge superman fan. That goes along way.
I also think he is far more capable of conveying an 'angry' superman in a way that's not corny.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:40 AM   #24
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
This isn't just directed at you, but I find it fascinating when people say this and someone always does, like clockwork.

Why do people think these types of complaints from Superman fans keep coming up? Why aren't there concerns like this from batfans? Why aren't they paranoid? It's because they don't need to be. They know batman will come out fine. If these concerns from superman fans are so unfounded and outlandish, why do they keep cropping up and why aren't there concerns from batfans that Snyder will make Superman look better than him? It's because there's no need or precedence for it. If these concerns were baseless, we either wouldn't see them at all or we'd see them from both batman and superman's fanbases.
Amen.

it's a valid concern since Batman has always been the star of DC (at least these recent years) and we won't wan't this to turn into the X-Men franchise where Wolverine hogs the entire series.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: So is Snyder a BIGGER fan of Batman?

Well, it'd be a shock if he were a bigger Superman fan. So, there's that...

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