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Old 04-19-2014, 10:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Ultimates 1 & 2 are good Elseworld stories. The problem is that, much like the rest of the Ultimate universe, they failed at what they were intended to do. They were supposed to be more modern and more realistic takes on the characters, except it wasn't any less modern/realistic than their 616 counterparts. Millar's definition of modern/realism was to apparently make everyone unlikeable.

Now that I think about it, the MCU is actually a much better modern and more realistic version of the 616 universe than Ultimate was. As other people have described it before, it's the Ultimate universe but with 616 characters.

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Old 04-19-2014, 10:35 PM   #27
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Someone tried to sell me on the idea once that Millar wrote the Ultimates characters as complete jerks to symbolize his distaste for what real-life heroes had become at the time. Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but the end result is that we got a bunch of books about people who were total ******** and that makes for a terrible story no matter what.

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Old 04-19-2014, 10:40 PM   #28
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Yeah but Ultimates is just an alternate universe thats really jyst a hiccup and never canon to Steve's 70 years of existence.
it's the template for the marvel cinematic universe. it's why Nick Fury is black. it's why the roster includes Hawkeye and Black Widow. it's where the Chitauri were created. it's why the Avengers are tied into S.H.I.E.L.D.

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Old 04-19-2014, 11:34 PM   #29
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thanks for the reminder Vision, was listening to it for the last hour now


Hopefully Brian Tyler keeps this silvestri's version

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Old 04-20-2014, 05:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I'm watching The Incredible Hulk Returns, laughing at Thor. It's on Sony channel. I hope we'll see more between the two in aou.

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Old 04-20-2014, 06:01 AM   #31
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The first Avengers film is a cross between Avengers #1 and the Ultimates. Now that SHIELD has been taken out of the equation, Avengers 2 will be more like the classic Avengers. Nick Fury won't control the team and his role will be minimized.

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:20 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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thanks for the reminder Vision, was listening to it for the last hour now
YW! That music does really gets the adrenaline going!

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Old 04-20-2014, 07:21 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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it's the template for the marvel cinematic universe. it's why Nick Fury is black. it's why the roster includes Hawkeye and Black Widow. it's where the Chitauri were created. it's why the Avengers are tied into S.H.I.E.L.D.
umm.....what? The 616 Avengers roster included Hawkeye and Black Widow, too. Also, *both* 616 and Ultimate featured Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as Day One Founders, whereas MCU Avengers pays homage to neither.

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Old 04-20-2014, 08:48 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Have to admit that I never really liked Millar's Ultimates work either. Ultimates soured me on the entire Ultimate-verse after reading some of it. Most of the heroes being some sort of psychopath really makes it a chore to read. Even outside of some very unlikable characters some of their decisions just read like drivel to me.

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Old 04-20-2014, 09:00 AM   #35
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I don't read comics, but can any of you please explain in some detail what the characters did that you didn't like?

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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umm.....what? The 616 Avengers roster included Hawkeye and Black Widow, too. Also, *both* 616 and Ultimate featured Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as Day One Founders, whereas MCU Avengers pays homage to neither.
Hawkeye and Black Widow weren't FOUNDING Avengers in the 616 universe, nor was SHIELD heavily involved in putting the team together (to the point of even coming up with the name). That's what the MCU took from the Ultimate Universe. Also, the Chitauri are from the UU as well.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:31 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I don't read comics, but can any of you please explain in some detail what the characters did that you didn't like?
Millar basically ramped up their quirks in an attempt to be like, "how would they really be if they were real world people". It more or less turned them all into psychotic *****.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I wonder if we will get a President Ellis cameo?
Quote:
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I don't read comics, but can any of you please explain in some detail what the characters did that you didn't like?
Hulk is a cannibal, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have an incestuous relationship, Wasp is bulimic and lays larvae, Giant-Man is a violent wife beater, Hawkeye is recklessly suicidal grim douche who's family is murder by Black Widow who is a child killing traitor, Captain America is a jingoistic jerk and the Red Skull is his illegitimate son.

Basically everyone is Ass****.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Basically everyone is Ass****.
Yep, not a fan of the Ultimates verse either apart from Peter Parker and now Miles Morales as Spidey. I can handle their characters but everyone else are kind of jerks.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

In some ways it feels like Millar just did Alan Moore's The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen except with Avengers characters and not as good.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I would love for William Sadler to appear in a cameo in this film.

Also he needs to reprise his role as Death in a third Bill and Ted movie.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:26 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

They're just taking the best of each Universe or whatever fits best with what they want to do.

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Old 04-20-2014, 12:27 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

William Sadler returns as the president and plays twister

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Old 04-20-2014, 09:04 PM   #44
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I loved Ultimates Vol 1 and 2 and Millar's Ultimate Avengers. I also disagree with the characterisation that everyones a jerk. MCU Stark is pretty much the Ultimate version but with 616 History and 616 Iron Man suits. Ultimate Thor is a Jesus Allegory. Ultimate Captain America is no more of an "unlikeable" "Jerk" than Jack Bauer, James Bond, or John McClane he's a hardened badass in their vein but with 1940s mentality and lingo. Hank Pym is a jerk though worse than a jerk actually.

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Old 04-20-2014, 09:34 PM   #45
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If TWS took place after IM3, where was Cap when President Ellis was kidnapped? I was hoping that would be explained in TWS, but I don't think they gave a definitive reason. Who better to send to save the President than Captain America?

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Old 04-20-2014, 09:41 PM   #46
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On another mission perhaps? We know that he's been working for SHIELD since the events of Avengers. But that actual reason is that the movie was called Iron Man 3, not Avengers 2 and Shane Black wanted to focus on Tony. I accept that every Avenger isn't going to magically show up to help out their teammates in every crises, both in the comics and in the movies. You could also argue that HYDRA subtly manipulated events so that Cap wouldn't show up (hoping that Tony, the President, or even both would be killed by Killian and his Extremis army). It would fit in with their strategy of covertly orchestrating/fomenting chaos, anarchy, and violence.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:06 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Of course, the other Avengers are not going to come running to help in another's solo film. But for that particular situation, with the President of the United States being kidnapped, I thought they'd have a reason for him not being there. Just as they will presumably explain where Hawkeye was during the fall of SHIELD.

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Old 04-20-2014, 10:08 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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If TWS took place after IM3, where was Cap when President Ellis was kidnapped? I was hoping that would be explained in TWS, but I don't think they gave a definitive reason. Who better to send to save the President than Captain America?
He was learning how to use a blender. (joking!)

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Old 04-20-2014, 11:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Hawkeye and Black Widow weren't FOUNDING Avengers in the 616 universe, nor was SHIELD heavily involved in putting the team together (to the point of even coming up with the name). That's what the MCU took from the Ultimate Universe. Also, the Chitauri are from the UU as well.
The MCU Founders takes the mythology of both Ultimate and 616, mixes it up, and creates its own thing. Hulk wasn't part of the Ultimate Founders (in fact, he was their enemy rather than their ally); Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye weren't part of the 616 Founders. *Both* teams counted Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as their original (and two of their longest-running) team members, whereas MCU Avengers shows no inclination to recognize either in the forseeable future.

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Old 04-21-2014, 01:07 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I loved Ultimates Vol 1 and 2 and Millar's Ultimate Avengers. I also disagree with the characterisation that everyones a jerk. MCU Stark is pretty much the Ultimate version but with 616 History and 616 Iron Man suits. Ultimate Thor is a Jesus Allegory. Ultimate Captain America is no more of an "unlikeable" "Jerk" than Jack Bauer, James Bond, or John McClane he's a hardened badass in their vein but with 1940s mentality and lingo. Hank Pym is a jerk though worse than a jerk actually.

and I think Ultimate Iron Man, Captain America(despite being taken to the extreme for some moments like the french comment he made or using kindergarten kids as a shield against War Machine), Thor and Quicksilver(despite the incest that really went overboard when Jeph came on) and Ultimate Captain America had likable moments as well. While Ultimate Captain America is more harsher and soldier like than 616 or Chris Evans Captain America he isn't simply a jingoistic jerk as people make him out to be and there is more to his character than that (I think despite jerk moments that made him despicable he also had good moments that made him a likable character under certain writers(Mark Millar, Brian Michael Bendis who make all the Ultimate heroes more likable imo,Jason Aaron in the last issues of the Ultimate Captain America mini series, Warren Ellis, etc) and I felt fleshed him out more than certain writers that aren't Ed Brubaker, Mark Waid, Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, etc did with 616 Captain America at times):

-most of Ultimates volume 1#3 when he visits Bucky and Gail, goes to see how many of his family members are still alive and when random people broke into his apartment to vandalize it when he wants to move into his own neighborhood(which is also kind of sad and feel sympathetic for his character as well).

-the scene with Nick Fury in the White House at the end of Ultimates volume 1

-the scene between Ultimate Cap and Mimic in Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates which also shows that Captain America visits soldiers in Afghanistan to supply them Thanks Giving Turkeys and simply being there as a moral boost for his fellow country men in Ultimate Avengers vs. New Ultimates #1.

- the scene in Ultimate Captain America#1 where he says he's done hiding in the shadows after being the ice for so long(hate the way he did it but I like the thing he said)

-The scene at the end of Ultimate 2#13, when skinny Steve tells Gail “They’re gonna make me into a super-soldier and I’m gonna help put an end to all this fighting.” (which as the article explained is ironic in itself
http://sequart.org/magazine/2793/mar...more-betrayal/)

- 2 of the scenes when Captain America shared with Spidey in Death of Spider-Man arc on the graveyard(Ultimate Spider-Man#156) where he tries to teach Peter the lesson on fighting smart versus fighting foolishly and how the second one can lead soldiers right to a cemetery and after talking to Peter and he got shot in order to save Steve's life(Ultimate_Avengers vs. New Ultimates#4) telling Peter that his wound is not fatal and commends him for taking a bullet for him without a second thought, stating that when he grows up Peter will be the best out of all of them or taking responsibility for his part in Spider-Man's death to Aunt May at the funeral

-The Captain America scenes with Nick Fury in Ultimate Six(#5 in particular) when he was dealing with monstrosities such as Green Goblin, Electro, etc being created in trying to make another Captain America/Super Soldier

- Watches Penny Singleton movies and other classics while working out.

-what he tells Nick in Ultimates volume 2#13 when the Ultimates decide to to leave S.H.I.E.L.D. and work as an independent team.

- Gets hooked into daytime television and movies such as the Terminator movies.(I would love it if Chris Evans Captain America would mention being a huge fan of Daytime Soaps over time in a movie, I love the idea of Steve being a movie fan and getting hooked into all those cheesy B movies and actually quoting them, talk to the hand)

- Accepts America's past mistakes such as what happened in Vietnam and whatnot, simply wants to work and help out America instead of complaining all the mistakes and saying America is ruined forever.

-trying to interact/make a bond more with T'Challa, forging dialect with him, then transported took him back to Wakanda, and took his place on the team of the Avengers/Ultimates(the only thing about Jeph Loeb that I liked)

-when he broke up a fight between Jean Grey, Sabretooth and Mystique and tells them he just wants to pay his respect to the fallen heroes in Ultimatum: X-Men Requiem #1

-sacrificing his life in order to distract Galactus as the others proceed to trap him in the Negative Zone in the Cataclysm event

among others

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