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Old 04-21-2014, 06:07 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

Pierce/HYDRA probably prevented SHIELD from inferfering with Killian's plans. Fury would have known that Mandarin was a bluff, but played along with it (because of Pierce). As for the President getting captured, I assume Fury told Cap to hang back and let Tony deal with it.

SHIELD probably even knew Stark was alive after being attacked at his Malibu home.

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Old 04-21-2014, 07:16 AM   #52
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The MCU Founders takes the mythology of both Ultimate and 616, mixes it up, and creates its own thing. Hulk wasn't part of the Ultimate Founders (in fact, he was their enemy rather than their ally); Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye weren't part of the 616 Founders. *Both* teams counted Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne as their original (and two of their longest-running) team members, whereas MCU Avengers shows no inclination to recognize either in the forseeable future.
They were all founding members. Banner only did Hulk because he was trying to promote the team, and they were peeved at him because he was a member of the team, because they trusted him. BW, Hawkeye, QS and SW were all there from the beginning on the black ops team. The MCU doesn't randomly mix up the Ultimate Universe, it takes that basic structure and then puts the 616 heart into it (usually) and costume designs over it (sometimes), but the structure is absolutely Ultimate, and for good reason, it was the singular cinematic modernization of the Marvel universe, right down to casting the Ultimates in the book. Avengers was the exact same structure as Ultimates vol 1 and 2, with Loki in place of Kleiser. Right down to the memorable Hulk thrashing. Because it was a great story.

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Of course, the other Avengers are not going to come running to help in another's solo film. But for that particular situation, with the President of the United States being kidnapped, I thought they'd have a reason for him not being there. Just as they will presumably explain where Hawkeye was during the fall of SHIELD.
SHIELD would send Cap, and every explanation for why he wasn't sent is totally fan-made. It's a plot hole. -shrug-

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Old 04-21-2014, 07:27 AM   #53
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If TWS took place after IM3, where was Cap when President Ellis was kidnapped? I was hoping that would be explained in TWS, but I don't think they gave a definitive reason. Who better to send to save the President than Captain America?
IMO, you have to remember how quickly things happened at the end of IM3 - it was, what, a matter of hours? (and this is ultimately the thing about all the Phase 2 solo movies so far - when the end game happens, it's been within a very short window of time, hours in IM3, minutes in Thor:TDW, couple hours in CA:TWS) Without knowing where Steve is, what other assignment he might be on - there might not have been time for him to get there. And that's assuming that he was told/knew about it. Remember, when trying to inform authorities of the Presidents kidnapping, Tony tells the V.P. who ends up being IN ON IT and wasn't going to pass the information along/do anything about it. So there's a strong possibility that SHIELD didn't know or if they did, the HYDRA element wanted it to happen and managed to stall any action.

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Old 04-21-2014, 07:30 AM   #54
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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SHIELD would send Cap, and every explanation for why he wasn't sent is totally fan-made. It's a plot hole. -shrug-
While it isn't explicitly stated, it can be pretty easily inferred that the HYDRA faction within SHIELD were pulling the appropriate strings required to keep SHIELD (Cap et al) away from the events of IM3.

There's a difference between what can be logically inferred from the events of CA:TWS and a fan-manufactured plot-hole. Not everything needs to be explicitly stated, unless every Marvel movie is to be turned into a lumbering exposition dump.

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Old 04-21-2014, 07:45 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

What is it with all this "omg where was SHIELD and Cap in IM3?!?" hand-wringing? It's two different solo stories that are roughly concurrent, and it's stories that deal with the solo careers of Steve and Tony that have nothing to do with what's going on in the Avengers (who haven't been shown to be a formalized group with regular meetings yet until AoU makes them the superteam we know and love from the comics).

The simple fact of the matter that people keep forgetting is that SHIELD is NOT a tool of the US government. SHIELD works for the movie version of the UN; they're not there to do the work of the CIA, FBI, and US military. When the President got abducted, the US military sent Iron Patriot to rescue him, and that's the appropriate threat response (even if that response failed). Captain America works (worked) for SHIELD, not the US army.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:13 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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What is it with all this "omg where was SHIELD and Cap in IM3?!?" hand-wringing? It's two different solo stories that are roughly concurrent, and it's stories that deal with the solo careers of Steve and Tony that have nothing to do with what's going on in the Avengers (who haven't been shown to be a formalized group with regular meetings yet until AoU makes them the superteam we know and love from the comics).

The simple fact of the matter that people keep forgetting is that SHIELD is NOT a tool of the US government. SHIELD works for the movie version of the UN; they're not there to do the work of the CIA, FBI, and US military. When the President got abducted, the US military sent Iron Patriot to rescue him, and that's the appropriate threat response (even if that response failed). Captain America works (worked) for SHIELD, not the US army.
The point is if Fury can show up to a doughnut shop, they should be there when the POTUS is kidnapped.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:21 AM   #57
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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What is it with all this "omg where was SHIELD and Cap in IM3?!?" hand-wringing? It's two different solo stories that are roughly concurrent, and it's stories that deal with the solo careers of Steve and Tony that have nothing to do with what's going on in the Avengers (who haven't been shown to be a formalized group with regular meetings yet until AoU makes them the superteam we know and love from the comics).

The simple fact of the matter that people keep forgetting is that SHIELD is NOT a tool of the US government. SHIELD works for the movie version of the UN; they're not there to do the work of the CIA, FBI, and US military. When the President got abducted, the US military sent Iron Patriot to rescue him, and that's the appropriate threat response (even if that response failed). Captain America works (worked) for SHIELD, not the US army.
And not only that, Rhodey explicitly stated that the US government wanted to treat the IM3 events internally and specifically asked SHIELD not to get involved.

So you have:
a) The US explicitly asking SHIELD (which, as you stated, is an international organization) to back the **** off.
b) The fact that HYDRA was pulling SHIELD's strings all along.

Yet people continuously bring up the same question, wondering where SHIELD (and Captain America) was when the whole Mandarin/Extremis fiasco was playing out.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:34 AM   #58
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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While it isn't explicitly stated, it can be pretty easily inferred that the HYDRA faction within SHIELD were pulling the appropriate strings required to keep SHIELD (Cap et al) away from the events of IM3.

There's a difference between what can be logically inferred from the events of CA:TWS and a fan-manufactured plot-hole. Not everything needs to be explicitly stated, unless every Marvel movie is to be turned into a lumbering exposition dump.
There's no implication in TWS that HYDRA kept SHIELD away from any crisis, or had reason to. That's supposition, and you can always use supposition to explain plot holes.

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The point is if Fury can show up to a doughnut shop, they should be there when the POTUS is kidnapped.
'Zactly. Sometimes, things just don't make sense.

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So you have:
a) The US explicitly asking SHIELD (which, as you stated, is an international organization) to back the **** off.
That's really all you have. If that's in the movie though, that would explain it. It also shows why SHIELD being international is not, by itself, enough to keep them away from US interests, if the US has to specifically ask them not to intervene, that means they would have otherwise.

EDIT: That is in there, you're right. It's really subtle and short, but it is there. Good find.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:38 AM   #59
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

How is it a plot hole? It's two different films that are set in the same universe sure... but you can't say Cap not turning up in IM3 or Stark not turning up in TWS are plot holes. They are individual films.

It's like the comics. Cap's comics are individual stories in his little pocket of the MU. Same with Stark's and Thor's. Sometimes they cross over or team up, but those are usually in cross over events.

These solo films are like solo comics. The Avengers films are the equivalent of the big cross over events.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:43 AM   #60
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I think the thing that gives an excuse is the fact The Avengers arent on call until SHIELD specificallly gets in touch with ALL of them for special threats. When Iron Man is going through his own predicaments outside of that, noone is called in to help him. Im sure they may try doing guest cameos in future films but for now that "help a pal out" in a standalone film isnt needed.

The time window is another big factor, the shorter the time frame, the more it makes sense they wouldnt be flying in to help out cuz they wouldnt know whats going on.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:54 AM   #61
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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How is it a plot hole? It's two different films that are set in the same universe sure... but you can't say Cap not turning up in IM3 or Stark not turning up in TWS are plot holes. They are individual films.

It's like the comics. Cap's comics are individual stories in his little pocket of the MU. Same with Stark's and Thor's. Sometimes they cross over or team up, but those are usually in cross over events.

These solo films are like solo comics. The Avengers films are the equivalent of the big cross over events.
It's a plot hole in the overarching story. You could call it a plot hole in the Avengers franchise if you had to nail it down. The plot hole existing in the comics doesn't make it not a plot hole. Unless the movies explain them as pocket universes, then again, that's just fan theory.

Edit: According to IM3, the rest of the Avengers exist. Is it not referring to the characters from Avengers and their respectively solo films? If so, then the hole actually would be within the film, again, if not for Rhodey's subtle implication that the US wanted to handle it themselves.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:56 AM   #62
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It's like the comics. Cap's comics are individual stories in his little pocket of the MU. Same with Stark's and Thor's. Sometimes they cross over or team up, but those are usually in cross over events.
The situation is much worse in the comics since almost everyone is based in NY but its rare to see more than one property show up to beat the big bad at least in the movies the locations are spread out more: Tony is on the West Coast, Steve is in DC, Thor is in London or Asgard


SHIELD was told to back off in IM3? When? Where?

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:58 AM   #63
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It's not a fan theory. It is what it is. The solo movies are the same as the solo comics. Do you complain that Stark doesn't help Cap out in every Captain America comic? Or vise versa?

No you don't because whilst they are in a shared universe you suspend your disbelief and understand they are individual stories.

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Old 04-21-2014, 08:58 AM   #64
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The one thing I take away from theses solo films that can explain to me why certain heroes aren't there to help is that these films so far have pretty much taken place in very small windows of time especially the events that would require assistance.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:00 AM   #65
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The situation is much worse in the comics since almost everyone is based in NY but its rare to see more than one property show up to beat the big bad at least in the movies the locations are spread out more: Tony is on the West Coast, Steve is in DC, Thor is in London or Asgard


SHIELD was told to back off in IM3? When? Where?
They weren't but Rhodey made it clear the Mandarin thing was being handled strictly by the US Military. He didn't even want Stark involved. Stark only got involved when it became personal with Happy put in a coma.

And when Stark and Rhodey tried to inform the authorities about the President's capture, the VP was shown to be corrupt (possibly Hydra?). Plus the President's capture and the finale all happened within a few hours.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:05 AM   #66
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Why am I thinking Tony creates ULTRON as a substitute for SHIELD?

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:14 AM   #67
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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It's not a fan theory. It is what it is. The solo movies are the same as the solo comics. Do you complain that Stark doesn't help Cap out in every Captain America comic? Or vise versa?

No you don't because whilst they are in a shared universe you suspend your disbelief and understand they are individual stories.
Perhaps that's why you do it. For me, there's two reasons. I hold comic books to a much lower standard of realism because they are drawings, and because they are aimed at people who started reading as kids, but are no longer kids, people who still have a certain amount of childlike indifference to reality and, as you put it, suspension of disbelief.

The second reason is that the comic book characters have a different culture. For them, saving the world is just Tuesday. In the 616 universe, it is mathematically impossible for Captain America to be there every time the world is threatened, or every time some mad scientist is doing something unthinkable. It just happens too too often. So much so that he naturally trusts other people to do incredible world saving on their own. What sense does it make to run to help Iron Man when Iron Man has single handedly saved the universe 5 times?

Now the films, they don't have that culture, either in or outside of the story, so I point out when things don't make sense, because the solo films are not really like the solo comics, they simply draw inspiration from them.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:20 AM   #68
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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The situation is much worse in the comics since almost everyone is based in NY but its rare to see more than one property show up to beat the big bad at least in the movies the locations are spread out more: Tony is on the West Coast, Steve is in DC, Thor is in London or Asgard


SHIELD was told to back off in IM3? When? Where?
SHIELD wasn't told to back off, but during the restaurant scene, with Tony and Rhodey, while Tony is signing the kid's drawing, Rhodey is telling Tony that Mandarin "It's not [superhero business]. This is American business." Implying that America doesn't want superheroes, which SHIELD would naturally represent, involved. Keep in mind, Tony is not paying attention, and so neither is the audience, but it was said, so there's an implication there.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:26 AM   #69
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Why am I thinking Tony creates ULTRON as a substitute for SHIELD?
Because it makes a great deal of sense. Tony has the ability and motivation to create a computer program that can do everything SHIELD used to. He also has all of SHIELD's files. Other notes: I think it might be cool if 'Vision' was what was used to 'see' what what was going on in the world.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:29 AM   #70
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Why am I thinking Tony creates ULTRON as a substitute for SHIELD?
It's a quasi popular fan theory, but I'd prefer this avengers film not be a cleaning up of a mess that was created by Avengers or those connected to the Avengers like Avengers 1


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Old 04-21-2014, 09:30 AM   #71
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Then that takes away the thematic potential of Ultron. The Avengers, as a whole, or an individual MUST be responsible in some way for Ultron's creation.

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Old 04-21-2014, 09:38 AM   #72
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It's a quasi popular fan theory, but I'd prefer this avengers film not be a cleaning up of a mess that was created by Avengers or those connected to the Avengers like Avengers 1
What (good) superhero movie doesn't have them dealing with a mess connected to the hero(es)?

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Old 04-21-2014, 10:31 AM   #73
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Tony making ULTRON is another twist on the classic Frankenstein story too. I think that idea rather than the main villains creating ANOTHER villain makes things more interesting.

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Old 04-21-2014, 10:34 AM   #74
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What (good) superhero movie doesn't have them dealing with a mess connected to the hero(es)?
Spider-man 2, TDK, Blade and more
Even then I'm specifically talking about a mess created by the heroes or that the heroes are at fault for. In Avengers SHIELD and Asgard are to blame for the invasion

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Old 04-21-2014, 10:39 AM   #75
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TDK does. The Joker surfaces because of Batman's arrival. Everything is connected to Batman in that film. Also including Dent's descent.

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