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Old 05-28-2014, 06:35 AM   #176
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

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Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
The sentinels were not active during the past movies. They were never actually put to use until after X3 and before DOFP as evidenced with this movie
I assume the simulation you see in the Danger Room (The Last Stand) is based on an early Pre-2005 encounter.
The X-Men team (Cyclops, Jean, Emma Silverfox, Storm, Beast) must have fought them in 1998 or 2000...

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Old 05-28-2014, 06:41 AM   #177
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

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I assume the simulation you see in the Danger Room (The Last Stand) is based on an early Pre-2005 encounter.
The X-Men team (Cyclops, Jean, Emma Silverfox, Storm, Beast) must have fought them in 1998 or 2000...
it was fanfare. There is no indication that the sentinel program was active prior to the trilogy. The first film deals with wanting to push legislation to approve a mutant registration act. Its quite a jump to unleash large killing machines on them before that. The impression was that mutantkind wasn't really a big issue until X1 when they were becoming increasingly more apparent and present with Senator Kelly wanting to take a stand against them

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Old 05-28-2014, 06:56 AM   #178
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

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I assume the simulation you see in the Danger Room (The Last Stand) is based on an early Pre-2005 encounter.
The X-Men team (Cyclops, Jean, Emma Silverfox, Storm, Beast) must have fought them in 1998 or 2000...
No need, they could have been from the X-Men: The Official Game, it was written by the writer of X3 and meant to explain much of what happened between X2 and 3, it also doesn't exactly contradict previous canon.

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Old 05-28-2014, 07:49 AM   #179
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

I still stand by my Split Timeline statement, particularly given statements that have been made by individuals associated directly with the production of the franchise.

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Old 05-28-2014, 08:21 AM   #180
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

I go with all films originally happened more or less untill the time travel of DOFP.
The future wolverine wakes up In at end of DOFP Is future of his changing events In 1973.Apocalypse will be set before the future wolverine.

It's clear that the Xavier of new 2023 Is older version wolverine helped guide In 1973.

A split timeline would mean the events of trilogy and wolverine films still existed apart from First Class world.

They want to have their cake and eat it too.They want to appeal to those who
wanted FC to be reboot and not have to abide by events of trilogy and they want to appear to those who want the original trilogy or at least X-Men and X2
to still matter.Hench Kinberg's comments of moving to stauts quo of X1 In APocalypse and the films are altered not erased.

Donner,Singer,and Fox don't want to give up the OT cast yet.

Donnor herself has said after DOFP you can just forget about Origins and Last stand.Although the pre1973 parts of origins are likely still valid.

It appears X-Men,X2,and possibly The wolverine were altered not erased.

Just because Stryker Isn't involved possibly with wolverine's adamanturm doesn't mean at some point he wouldn't be trying to wipe out mutants.

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Old 05-28-2014, 08:40 AM   #181
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

^ Your statements are exactly why the Split Timeline makes perfect sense with everything we have seen to date and everything that's been said both pre-and-post-DoFP.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
"There is no "supposed to be." It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:40 PM   #182
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

You know who got the worst of the retcons? Wolverine.

Imagine you go to sleep next to a beautiful girl in 1976 and next thing you know you're a conference room in Paris and some guy is telling you you're on acid? Then the next thing you know some blue chick named mystique is trying to recruit you to her Brotherhood, and whatever... eventually you team up with the random acid guy and he recruits you to his school, where you become an X-Man, a hero, develop an actual friendship with Jean instead of just a supercrush on a girl you've had less than ten conversations with, and even become a history teacher, which you can do, since, y'know, you've been through a LOT of history.

...and then one day you just cease to exist. Tough times.

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Old 05-29-2014, 05:43 PM   #183
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

Atleast he'll forget all about it....maybe o_O

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Old 06-11-2014, 02:43 AM   #184
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I'd say there is no retcon. Just straight up reboot.
Yeah, retcon implies that the writers would like the audience to believe a change is not a change, but rather the way something has been all along. Not the case here, everyone with half a brain cell knows that time travel shenanigans changed ****.

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Old 06-11-2014, 02:59 AM   #185
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

What's really hilarious is certain posters retconning their own statements from a year ago. Watching someone go from "there will be no retcons or timeline alterations" to "I'm explaining away retcons left and right" is quite amusing.

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Old 06-11-2014, 03:04 AM   #186
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

Did none of those people ever watch anything involving time travel before?

"Hey, we're going back to 1973 to change stuff in 2020-something...... but don't worry, NOTHING in the decade or two before that period is going to change!"

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Old 06-11-2014, 03:09 AM   #187
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

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Did none of those people ever watch anything involving time travel before?

"Hey, we're going back to 1973 to change stuff in 2020-something...... but don't worry, NOTHING in the decade or two before that period is going to change!"
Come on, man. FOX wouldn't invalidate their own previous movies. They know what they're doing. They're making the FANTASTIC FOUR lololol

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Old 06-11-2014, 03:26 AM   #188
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:49 AM   #189
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Default Re: How Much Was REALLY Retconned?

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Yeah, retcon implies that the writers would like the audience to believe a change is not a change, but rather the way something has been all along. Not the case here, everyone with half a brain cell knows that time travel shenanigans changed ****.
Yep. Everything we saw in X1-The Wolverine likely never happened other than First Class, of course. Some thing may have stayed the same, I'm sure. But, for now, we have no idea.

It's pretty interesting how much like a comic this film has made the series due to the retcons its had and now this reboot.

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Old 06-12-2014, 11:04 AM   #190
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Firstly, I still see people people confused as to how Kitty has the ability of time-manipulation. For the record, we don't need to say she has this power only out of plot-convenience. We know already Kitty has the ability to phase through solid objects on this plane of reality, she can phase through space. Now, the fabric of reality is woven by two parts, space and time. (that's why its called space-time). Its not hard at all to say if she can phase through space, she can phase through time. The question is no longer, "Can she phase through something?" It's closer to "WHEN does she phase through it?"

Secondly, on a quantum level, time travel is inherently, well, finicky. "(Dr. Who fans, "Wibbly, wobbly, timey-whimey stuff."). Most physicists in this field will happily tell you they have only the feeblist grasp on the notion, so a lot of the questions we have here are not going to have logical answers, and what answers we do have are going be inherently counter-intuitive.

I see a lot of people trying to break the argument down to whether time is immutable or not, over-writable or not. A lot of that depends on the perspective of the observer, the traveler, and other random factors. This is addressed in the film to Logan, "You will be the only one who remembers both histories." or something like that. So which Logan remembers which history? We could have as many as *3* separate Logans, the original Logan(pre time travel), the time traveler we saw throughout the film who has over written he past self's mind, and the future traveler who wakes up and, again, overwrites his own mind. These CANNOT be the exact same mind/person, as if they were, he would not have the lapsed memory from 1973 onward. This is why he can't remember anything past 1973 when he wakes up, but he is shown to be a history teacher, meaning that before his alternate future self woke up, his over-written past self could still remember his life before that point (with some blank spots due to the time travel)

On a whole, we can assume a great many of the events of world history from Origins through roughly X2 remain the same. However, a lot has indeed changed as far as film continuity with the revival of Scott, Jean, Beast, and anyone who we saw live through DOFP alternate future. There's also a lot that was not gone into, because certain predetermining factors have changed, such as Magneto being released early. So, the chances of an event that happens in the original timeline and the new timeline remain roughly the same as without any sort of time travel tampering, about 50%.

An example: does Fassbender attempt to attack the UN Summit as in X1? Well, we just do not know. Sure Rogue still has the streak in her hair, but based only off what we got in DOFP, there's lots of reasons why she could have the white streak. Dyed? Born that way? Stolen from Magneto as we saw in X1? Maybe even she lifted it off of Carol Danvers? We just do not know. Its like trying to argue whether or not you put on a white or black t-shirt this morning. Sure, you know NOW, as you are wearing said shirt, but in the seconds before you put it on, did you know? Maybe, but what if the shirt you wanted was dirty? Or missing? A lot of factors determine that choice, most of which we barely recognize on a conscious level.

To take this further, would Magneto still be a bad guy if his mother wasn't killed in front of him? Maybe, maybe not. What if they sent someone back in time to prevent that event? That's a reverse grandfather-paradox. (say his mother was spared, but he still became a bad guy. The question now becomes a matter of whether or not he is "destined" to be bad, or at least what the determining factor is that moulds him that way. But, what if he did not become a bad guy? What then? How far does this effect history?

The original comic did a fantastic job of this time-travel mystery by not killing Senator Kelly (who was the target, rather than Trask), only to have him pass the Sentinel bill at the end anyway, leaving open the possibility for the future to play out the same way. This is the now-called Terminator paradox, despite DOFP predating the movie Terminator by a few years. (This is most challenging. What if the Terminators succeeded in killing John or Sarah pre-birth? Then John would not win the war, and Skynet would win. But in this new future, Skynet would have no reason to send anything back in time to alter history, so John would still be born and ultimately leave open the possiblity of winning the war. In this 3rd alternate future, events from the original past would still play out, but just not the same way or at the same time. And so begins a never ending cycle of Skynet sending/not sending a Terminator through to kill John. Whether or not it succeeds is a different argument entirely.)

We won't really know what was retconned and what wasn't until time in the new First Class-based films catches back up with the original movies. We can't even say FOR SURE that the Sentinels will never be back/take over the world. What's to stop someone crazed nutjob human (Stryker, Gyrich, Humanity Front, take your pick) from picking up where Trask left off? Honestly, nothing at all. Sure, the likelihood of that happening again in cinema is slim, but taking the Hollywood factor out of this, there's nothing at all stopping the Sentinel-ridden future from happening anyway, just not EXACTLY the same.

And besides all that, we now have Apocalypse to deal with, who time-hops frequently. What if the bright, happy, shining future we caught only a fleeting glimpse of in DOFP is the foundation for which Apocalypse sets his dystopia of death? Or even worse, seeing as we know the next film is set in an alternative 1980's setting, what sort of fresh Hell will be waiting for our beloved mutant brothers and sisters? Maybe, just maybe, Wolverine will not go through the Weapon X program. (difficult to grasp, I know) But there is comic-book precedent already in place of Apocalypse giving Wolverine his adamantium skeleton as part of Logan becoming a Horseman.

TL;dr - The point I'm trying to make here is this: if for no other reason that the very same story telling plot devices that allowed us to have the ending we all felt we needed/deserved, these very same rules are what will allow Apocalypse to return to our world, what allows him to set up his own Age of Apocalypse alternate future (giving way to Cable and the X-Force). We do not have a totally clean slate, with no X-history to guide us. Nay, what we have been given is world of open possibilities, where anything can, will, does, and in some cases, already has happened.

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Old 06-16-2014, 04:37 PM   #191
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Firstly, I still see people people confused as to how Kitty has the ability of time-manipulation. For the record, we don't need to say she has this power only out of plot-convenience. We know already Kitty has the ability to phase through solid objects on this plane of reality, she can phase through space. Now, the fabric of reality is woven by two parts, space and time. (that's why its called space-time). Its not hard at all to say if she can phase through space, she can phase through time. The question is no longer, "Can she phase through something?" It's closer to "WHEN does she phase through it?"
But she's not phasing through anything. If SHE can phase through time, then why can't she be the one who time travels? How does phasing through a wall or even phasing through time translate into sending someone's consciousness back in time? How are those two things the same at all? This is why I hate the time travel in this movie. Instead of just having Prof. X send Wolverine's mind back through time and saying that only he can go because he was alive at that time, and that he (Xavier) can't go because he can't send his mind into another psychic's (his past self) and Magneto's locked in prison so he's useless even if Old Magneto's mind is transported back, they come up with some convoluted reasoning all to make Kitty important to the plot, even though there's no discernable character or plot related reason why she should be, all because she was the one who time-traveled in the comics. And the time-travel doesn't even make any sense. Making one decision that's different from how things originally went will change everything. There is no reason why things weren't changing in the future. From the moment Logan interacts with Young Xavier, or even the moment Young Xavier interacts with his Old Self, that should of set the timeline on a completely different path that would've changed history.

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Secondly, on a quantum level, time travel is inherently, well, finicky. "(Dr. Who fans, "Wibbly, wobbly, timey-whimey stuff."). Most physicists in this field will happily tell you they have only the feeblist grasp on the notion, so a lot of the questions we have here are not going to have logical answers, and what answers we do have are going be inherently counter-intuitive.

On a whole, we can assume a great many of the events of world history from Origins through roughly X2 remain the same. However, a lot has indeed changed as far as film continuity with the revival of Scott, Jean, Beast, and anyone who we saw live through DOFP alternate future. There's also a lot that was not gone into, because certain predetermining factors have changed, such as Magneto being released early. So, the chances of an event that happens in the original timeline and the new timeline remain roughly the same as without any sort of time travel tampering, about 50%.
There are two solid ways to approach time-travel in fiction, Whatever happened, happened, or you can change the past. There's no need to complicate those very simple ideas.
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The original comic did a fantastic job of this time-travel mystery by not killing Senator Kelly (who was the target, rather than Trask), only to have him pass the Sentinel bill at the end anyway, leaving open the possibility for the future to play out the same way. This is the now-called Terminator paradox, despite DOFP predating the movie Terminator by a few years. (This is most challenging. What if the Terminators succeeded in killing John or Sarah pre-birth? Then John would not win the war, and Skynet would win. But in this new future, Skynet would have no reason to send anything back in time to alter history, so John would still be born and ultimately leave open the possiblity of winning the war. In this 3rd alternate future, events from the original past would still play out, but just not the same way or at the same time. And so begins a never ending cycle of Skynet sending/not sending a Terminator through to kill John. Whether or not it succeeds is a different argument entirely.)
No. If Skynet succeeds, then they succeed, time has already happened, so them not sending a Terminator to kill him in that timeline will make no difference, as he's already been killed, it's already happened, the future cannot change the past unless it directly affects it, as in someone else time travels to BEFORE the Terminator succeeds, and stops that event from happening, which would alter that timeline. It's simple.
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TL;dr - The point I'm trying to make here is this: if for no other reason that the very same story telling plot devices that allowed us to have the ending we all felt we needed/deserved, these very same rules are what will allow Apocalypse to return to our world, what allows him to set up his own Age of Apocalypse alternate future (giving way to Cable and the X-Force). We do not have a totally clean slate, with no X-history to guide us. Nay, what we have been given is world of open possibilities, where anything can, will, does, and in some cases, already has happened.
Well, I didn't feel I got the ending I deserved or really completely needed, so maybe that's why I take issue with the loose rules this movie plays.

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