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Old 07-01-2014, 08:30 PM   #126
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

Honestly, the ONLY villain I want for Iron Man 4 is the real Mandarin, in a more grounded sequel that brings the series back to the roots of the first Iron Man and brings the Ten Rings plot line full circle.

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Old 07-04-2014, 12:11 AM   #127
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Honestly, the ONLY villain I want for Iron Man 4 is the real Mandarin, in a more grounded sequel that brings the series back to the roots of the first Iron Man and brings the Ten Rings plot line full circle.
But how do you do a true to comics the Mandarin who doesn't seem like a racial stereotype and ends up getting banned in China?

The problem with the Mandarin is he seems like a dated character in the worse way, not in a fun kitschy way, but in a "I can't believe people used to believe those things" way. Does he have a well defined ideology or a good reason for hating Iron Man or is he just a stereotypical outdated racial caricature villain?

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Old 07-05-2014, 04:24 PM   #128
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Simply, he's a villain who just happens to be Chinese. Maybe even show that China wants him taken care of as well because THEY consider him a danger. It's not as hard as people seem to think.

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Old 07-06-2014, 02:28 AM   #129
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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But how do you do a true to comics the Mandarin who doesn't seem like a racial stereotype and ends up getting banned in China?

The problem with the Mandarin is he seems like a dated character in the worse way, not in a fun kitschy way, but in a "I can't believe people used to believe those things" way. Does he have a well defined ideology or a good reason for hating Iron Man or is he just a stereotypical outdated racial caricature villain?
Honestly it's not hard to make him a non-racist caricature. You'd have to try if you wanted to make him offensive. They just need to make him to be a great character, and the fact that he's Chinese and happens to wear Asian clothes is pure coincidence.

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Old 07-06-2014, 05:10 PM   #130
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Simply, he's a villain who just happens to be Chinese. Maybe even show that China wants him taken care of as well because THEY consider him a danger. It's not as hard as people seem to think.
Which would be a great oppurtunity to introduce an updated Radioactive Man, sent by the Chinese Government to take down the Mandarin.

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Old 07-07-2014, 05:46 PM   #131
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I'd like to see The Controller

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Old 07-07-2014, 06:44 PM   #132
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Simply, he's a villain who just happens to be Chinese. Maybe even show that China wants him taken care of as well because THEY consider him a danger. It's not as hard as people seem to think.
I think some people here are underestimating how sensitive the Chinese government can be, the government censored the Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End movie, because they thought Chow Yun-fat character was offensive.

My other problem with the character and no one has really addressed this, no one has really made a good case for why he is an interesting character or why he is a good choice for Iron Man's arch nemesis.

What kind of character is he? Is he a pure evil monster that we want to see Iron Man destroy or does he have defined sympathetic qualities? Why does he hate Iron Man over any other hero, what makes their rivalry dynamic? Why does he want take over the world, what is his ideology?


I would probably more interested in seeing the Mandarin on the Silver Age, if I didn't think he was confused character who the writers keep on changing. I have no idea what his deal is and he often just comes across as some cliched villain who is Iron Man's arch nemesis just because he appeared more often then anyone else in the Silver Age. Really he has maybe great story (that seemed to get forgotten by the next writer), then a bunch of mediocre stories, he doesn't have the same level of great stories as say Doom or Magneto.

I want to like the Mandarin, but the writers make it hard when they can't be bothered to give him a consistent personality.

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Old 07-08-2014, 12:34 PM   #133
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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Just create a new villain.
that might work after all agent Coulson was created for the movies why not a villain?

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Old 07-10-2014, 02:24 PM   #134
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I'd like to see The Controller
The Controller would be different and fun I'd also like him in a movieverse.

Others baddies worth adding to list - Count Nefaria, Living Laser, Blizzard & Beetle.

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Old 07-12-2014, 05:39 PM   #135
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I'm still in the Count Nefaria/Madame Masque camp.

They should wait a movie or two before revisiting the Mandarin.

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Old 07-12-2014, 08:52 PM   #136
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

Zeke Stane,Madame Masque,and The Crimson Cowl.

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Old 07-24-2014, 05:39 PM   #137
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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But how do you do a true to comics the Mandarin who doesn't seem like a racial stereotype and ends up getting banned in China?

The problem with the Mandarin is he seems like a dated character in the worse way, not in a fun kitschy way, but in a "I can't believe people used to believe those things" way. Does he have a well defined ideology or a good reason for hating Iron Man or is he just a stereotypical outdated racial caricature villain?
This will sound funny, but give it a second to settle. Make him Tiger Woods.

Ok, now that that has set in, let me explain. Tiger Woods has such a mixed racial heritage that he can relate to almost every race in America, and even the world. You can say that Mandarin is a descendant of Genghis Khan, but also have his heritage cross paths with the Middle East, Northern Africa, Japan, Polynesian, etc. And of course, he's immensely intelligent, so he is versed in various languages and sociological and religious practices. The bottom line, make him so he can be mistaken for any race or creed. Basically, do what they hinted at in Iron Man 3, but linked to warrior lineage and the supernatural legend of The Mandarin.

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Old 07-27-2014, 03:01 PM   #138
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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My other problem with the character and no one has really addressed this, no one has really made a good case for why he is an interesting character or why he is a good choice for Iron Man's arch nemesis.

What kind of character is he? Is he a pure evil monster that we want to see Iron Man destroy or does he have defined sympathetic qualities? Why does he hate Iron Man over any other hero, what makes their rivalry dynamic? Why does he want take over the world, what is his ideology?
He doesn't want to take over the world, he wants to turn the world into chaotic land of endless war. His schemes are always some variation on that, sometimes bombarding the world with hate rays to provoke world war III, sometimes interfering with rice crops so that starvation will provoke world war III, sometimes using a mystic plot-device to directly turn the world into a jungle, sometimes killing all the weak-gened so everyone will see how much better the world would be operating on barbaric jungle princibles. Like every single villain out there, including villains you claim to approve of, there is variation on the theme, but the basic theme has been consistent for 50 years.



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I want to like the Mandarin, but the writers make it hard when they can't be bothered to give him a consistent personality.
His personality has been as consistent as any other villain of his age. He's a hypermasculine barbarian type. Every single villain shows variation from writer to writer, including Magneto and Doom.

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Old 07-27-2014, 06:57 PM   #139
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

Seriously. **** the Mandarin. Let's use Ghost, Blizzard, MODOK, anything. We have barely scratched the surface of his villains.

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Old 07-28-2014, 11:23 AM   #140
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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He doesn't want to take over the world, he wants to turn the world into chaotic land of endless war. His schemes are always some variation on that, sometimes bombarding the world with hate rays to provoke world war III, sometimes interfering with rice crops so that starvation will provoke world war III, sometimes using a mystic plot-device to directly turn the world into a jungle, sometimes killing all the weak-gened so everyone will see how much better the world would be operating on barbaric jungle princibles. Like every single villain out there, including villains you claim to approve of, there is variation on the theme, but the basic theme has been consistent for 50 years.



His personality has been as consistent as any other villain of his age. He's a hypermasculine barbarian type. Every single villain shows variation from writer to writer, including Magneto and Doom.
Well Doom and Magneto have gotten more quality writing over the decades then the Mandarin has. But a hypermasculine barbarian is not a character, its an archetype. What kind of barbarian is he? He is a noble warrior with a code of honor who thinks he is doing what is the best for the world and is seriously misguided or is he a monstrous psychopath who wants to throw the world into chaos to gain himself power and inflict suffering on the human race?

The way Knauf and Fracation wrote Mandarin, maybe the basic archetype is the same, but the deeper character stuff isn't.

When Knauf wrote Mandarin he thought killing off most of the human race to make the survivors stronger through the Extremist virus was a fair trade and was killing sacrifice his own life to do so, when Fraction wrote Mandarin, he wanted to destroy the entire world and escape in a rocket ship to save his own life. So he went from sacrificing his life to make the world stronger in one story, to deciding to destroy the world and save his own life in the process. Knauf's Mandarin seems like someone who genuinely believes the ideology you laid out, Fraction's Mandarin seems like a monster who uses that ideology as an excuse to do whatever he pleases and really only cares about himself.

Destroying the world goes against Nietzsche's ideas, you can't make people stronger, if they are all dead. Fraction's Mandarin doesn't understand or doesn't care about this ideology.

Plus you really have not laid out what kind of interesting dynamic Iron Man and Mandarin are supposed to have, why is Mandarin a good arch nemesis for Iron Man, what makes Tony's rivalry with the Mandarin more special then other other villains?


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Old 07-28-2014, 12:49 PM   #141
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And you don't seem to understand that this isn't the comics. So how he's portrayed in the comics is irrelevant. They could BUILD an interesting dynamic between him and Tony for the MCU. Sorry, but "I don't like comic Mandarin" is NOT a valid reason for why he cannot be used in the FILMS. It's that simple.

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Old 07-28-2014, 12:59 PM   #142
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Well when people say that Black "raped the Mandarin", what they normally mean is "I want what's in the comics" not "using the comics as an inspiration to build a better character." The best writing Mandy ever got was from Drew Pearce.

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Old 07-29-2014, 09:04 PM   #143
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

With James Gunn talking about wanting to do Thunderbolts, it does have me thinking that The Fixer could make a good villain for an Iron Man film. He's interesting and powerful enough to be the main villain in a film, and being a technological based villain he is a good fit for Iron Man.

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Old 07-29-2014, 09:25 PM   #144
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I think Ghost could be a somewhat nice change of pace for the IM films, to be honest. Yeah, he's out there for corporate sabotage and such, but the action scenes will be killer. Not to mention now that we've established AIM / Extremis is out there, it can pave the way for more fantastical villains.

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:38 PM   #145
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Default Re: The villain(s) of IM4 thread

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Honestly, the ONLY villain I want for Iron Man 4 is the real Mandarin, in a more grounded sequel that brings the series back to the roots of the first Iron Man and brings the Ten Rings plot line full circle.
This notion needs to go. Sure, Lucas, Nolan and countless other directors have used it to great effect. Why keep doing the same thing over and over again?

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:40 PM   #146
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Not to mention, outside of that STUPID one-shot, they closed it in IM1. Obi took out the remaining members of the 10 Rings, and the "Mandarin" being a mystical thing nullifies the bare-bones shout out he got in IM1.

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Old 08-01-2014, 09:56 AM   #147
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i think the only option is the mandarin, done in a nice, epic and LOGICAL story, after the oneshot.
it cant be that hard...

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Old 08-02-2014, 10:19 AM   #148
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Let's face it. Iron Man 3 killed this franchise. Tony is no longer Iron Man and they turned his greatest nemesis into a joke. What is the point of making more Iron Man movies without Favreau?

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Old 08-02-2014, 12:53 PM   #149
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Let's face it. Iron Man 3 killed this franchise. Tony is no longer Iron Man and they turned his greatest nemesis into a joke. What is the point of making more Iron Man movies without Favreau?
Umm... Tony Stark is still Iron Man...


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Old 08-02-2014, 06:35 PM   #150
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Let's face it. Iron Man 3 killed this franchise. Tony is no longer Iron Man
You can take away my house, all my tricks and toys. One thing you can't take away...I am Iron Man.

So, either you have ADD or you didn't pay attention, which leads me to....

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they turned his greatest nemesis into a joke. What is the point of making more Iron Man movies without Favreau?
How? The image of the Mandarin was a joke, and hell, it is a joke. He's re-written in every arc he's featured in, and I can't think of one thing Mandarin has actually done to Tony Stark in the comics that bears remembering. Now Killian, One-Shot or not, was a great threat. He blew his freakin' house up for christ's sakes! Tony's biggest nemesis isn't Vanko, or Stane, Hammer, Killian, or Mandarin. It's himself. In various media and stories, Tony Stark's biggest problem is Tony Stark....and all three films, this & IM1 in particular, showed that. The way AoU is shaping up, that will prove it too.

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