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Old 04-15-2017, 10:59 AM   #26
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

And if you don't think the liberal focus of Marvel writers affects readership... just reverse the roles. How would you, if you guys are liberals, feel if the comics started to really focus on conservative values and either ignore liberal values or depict them as the bad guys? The next Young Avengers writer depicts America and Prodigy as the villains. The core emphasis of the title is heterosexual love and that gay people should question if they're really gay?

An issue of Champions depicts Hillary Clinton as a corrupt, power hungry abomination and those who voted for her as idiotic, gullible sheep.

A run of Avengers where the core villains are a group of racist black people trying to stomp down the white man and cause division while the white man is just trying to bring love and peace for themselves and all races.

Foreigners coming into the country/team being terrorists and traitors and should not be trusted.

More subtle stories of how all lives matter from the womb to death.

Would Marvel handling stories like those above while doing NOTHING that tells the story of minorities or other cultures and religions affect your reading experience? If it went on for long enough and if all the creators you follow on Twitter just mocked you, your beliefs, and the people you believe in... you'd still say there's no problem? Wouldn't you then find it believable that many readers might just say enough is enough and find something else to do than read Marvel comics?

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Old 04-15-2017, 11:47 AM   #27
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This is sounding a lot like a puppies rant.

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Old 04-15-2017, 01:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

The article starts off pointing out a lot of the problems with Marvel, but then immediately jumps into "anti-SJW" ranting. Marvel's most recent issues have sprung up from the way they've been handling the line. AS there management derailed, they started the new push for diversity. And since the increased diversity happened at the same time they were making poor executive decision after poor executive decision, those two things became linked.

It doesn't help that we've reached a point of increased political intolerance, where certain groups are simply unwilling to abide messages they don't agree with. This is nothing new, back in the 80's Amanda Waller was lecturing Reagan on welfare. It's just now it's some full-blown agenda that can't be supported by anyone who doesn't agree politically.

It's not hard to simply look around the comic book sites like this to see that the vast majority of readers aren't the type to ditch books because of some perceived liberal agenda. The only people saying THIS is the problem are the ones who want it to be.

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Old 04-15-2017, 03:07 PM   #29
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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The core emphasis of the title is heterosexual love
HA! As if this isn't the case of the vast majority of comics (and all other media). One outlying comic out of thousands doesn't change anything. And funny that you vilify the one comic that tried to do something different with sexuality.

As for the rest of your post... Marvel doesn't depict that stuff because, you know, they tell stories about heroes.

And Marvel is still dealing with long histories of racist and sexist characters and stories like the things you listed.

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Old 04-15-2017, 05:01 PM   #30
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

There will be a house cleaning very soon. Back to good old fashioned meat and potatoes superhero storytelling with legacy characters. Oh, and please get rid of Bendis and Slott. Thanks.


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Old 04-15-2017, 05:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Absolutely sickening how writers use beloved characters, or put them aside even, to forward their heavy-handed political agendas. Not surprising Ike's house is schizoid, he's off helping Trump while his kiddies are doing a 180 the other way...It wouldn't surprise me if Iger eventually moves the shop out West and puts everything under one roof... People want great superhero stories, politics will always play a part, but some of these writers forgot how to do it artfully.


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Old 04-15-2017, 11:09 PM   #32
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

Here's a list of Marvel characters that I love that I can't read about because they've been replaced by minority characters for the sake of fulfilling their vision of "diversity": Thor, Logan, Bruce Banner, Iron Man, and Steve Rogers (initially replaced by Falcon, now Rogers is evil and for some reason Falcon kept the shield)

That list right there is a list of the most popular characters Marvel in the eyes of the general populace has hands down (granted, Spidey would have to be included to make the list complete and they haven't killed him yet). And I can't buy a comic about them. So, sure, there's other reasons Marvel sales are down too, but them writing off their most popular characters is absolutely a signifcant contributing factor. The best way to diversify can't possibly be by ticking people off by taking away their favourite characters and replacing them

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Old 04-15-2017, 11:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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That list right there is a list of the most popular characters Marvel in the eyes of the general populace has hands down (granted, Spidey would have to be included to make the list complete and they haven't killed him yet). And I can't buy a comic about them. So, sure, there's other reasons Marvel sales are down too, but them writing off their most popular characters is absolutely a signifcant contributing factor. The best way to diversify can't possibly be by ticking people off by taking away their favourite characters and replacing them

You'd think they'd want to have them like their movie counterparts enough for easy entry of those fans.

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Old 04-16-2017, 12:05 AM   #34
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

At this point, it is proven that the movies don't boost the sales.

Although I am curious why it was okay for Bucky to replace Cap, but not Falcon.

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Old 04-16-2017, 01:56 AM   #35
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Here's a list of Marvel characters that I love that I can't read about because they've been replaced by minority characters for the sake of fulfilling their vision of "diversity": Thor, Logan, Bruce Banner, Iron Man, and Steve Rogers (initially replaced by Falcon, now Rogers is evil and for some reason Falcon kept the shield)

That list right there is a list of the most popular characters Marvel in the eyes of the general populace has hands down (granted, Spidey would have to be included to make the list complete and they haven't killed him yet). And I can't buy a comic about them. So, sure, there's other reasons Marvel sales are down too, but them writing off their most popular characters is absolutely a signifcant contributing factor. The best way to diversify can't possibly be by ticking people off by taking away their favourite characters and replacing them
Yeah, it's maddening. They've got their backs against the wall though, so change is coming. How soon? Probably in the next couple of years I'd guess. Even though I'd consider myself progressive in a lot of areas, I hate, HATE, being treated like a child and being force-fed politics by people who think they are smarter then me. We already have enough of that crap shoved down our throats 24/7, but now I'm fed it in crude & transparent ways in comics. "We get it!" "No, no you don't, there's this!". While I understand where the editorial policy comes from, when it lacks any finesse and happens at the expense of legacy characters, then you've got problems and have completely lost the plot.

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:26 AM   #36
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HA! As if this isn't the case of the vast majority of comics (and all other media). One outlying comic out of thousands doesn't change anything. And funny that you vilify the one comic that tried to do something different with sexuality.
You're missing the point. It's not that they did a book that was about homosexuality. It's that one writer changed the entire dynamic of the book and its characters to tell that story. In no way is Gillen's Young Avengers connected with Heinburg's Young Avengers. He changed it from a Legacy book to tell a gay story. Again, I have nothing against books about gay people. No problem at all. I support gay people. But to completely change the identity of a book, turn previously straight characters gay or bi, remove straight characters, etc. and just change a team so drastically that it doesn't look or feel like the team that made it popular and shift the whole point of the book to something else politically charged ruins the book for me (no matter the book or topic). And obviously others agree since the book or team has not returned since it ended.

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As for the rest of your post... Marvel doesn't depict that stuff because, you know, they tell stories about heroes.
Oh, that doesn't matter. They deal with political things all the time usually through analogies and such. Or if you're a liberal hack, you take an issue of Champions and just shove his misguided view of conservatives and the president straight down people's throats.

A good writer will take a political topic they want to cover and write it in a way to where people who want to hear that can get it, but those who don't want to hear it can still enjoy the title anyway. And it should always stay true to the characters in the story. A fantastic example of this is Valiant's recent title Bloodshot Reborn. I read the whole book and loved every second of it not realizing that... Jeff Lemire I think... wrote it as a political piece on gun control. Once I realize that I could see it. I'm all about the 2nd Amendment, so that topic doesn't speak to me, but the story itself was well done and in line with the Bloodshot character. Fantastic job.

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:27 AM   #37
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This is sounding a lot like a puppies rant.
I have no idea what that means.

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:27 AM   #38
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Yeah, it's maddening. They've got their backs against the wall though, so change is coming. How soon? Probably in the next couple of years I'd guess. Even though I'd consider myself progressive in a lot of areas, I hate, HATE, being treated like a child and being force-fed politics by people who think they are smarter then me. We already have enough of that crap shoved down our throats 24/7, but now I'm fed it in crude & transparent ways in comics. "We get it!" "No, no you don't, there's this!". While I understand where the editorial policy comes from, when it lacks any finesse and happens at the expense of legacy characters, then you've got problems and have completely lost the plot.
Completely agree

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:30 AM   #39
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At this point, it is proven that the movies don't boost the sales.

Although I am curious why it was okay for Bucky to replace Cap, but not Falcon.
I think it's because of how it was handled. The build up to Bucky becoming Cap was handled really well, and he was promoted as the new Captain America after Steve's heartbreaking death following Civil War... which is fine. I've not read anything with Falcon as Cap or the build up to it, so I can't comment on how that was handled, but from the outside looking in all I saw were promotions of THE NEW BLACK CAPTAIN AMERICA!!! I didn't even know it was Falcon for quite a while because they didn't even bother to promote his history with Steve to make it relevant to the character's legacy. It was handled in a way that felt like it was just pandering to black readers. It screamed "We're being progressive!!!" more than it screamed "This is a natural but fantastic evolution for the legacy of the character".

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Old 04-16-2017, 08:39 AM   #40
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The article starts off pointing out a lot of the problems with Marvel, but then immediately jumps into "anti-SJW" ranting. Marvel's most recent issues have sprung up from the way they've been handling the line. AS there management derailed, they started the new push for diversity. And since the increased diversity happened at the same time they were making poor executive decision after poor executive decision, those two things became linked.

It doesn't help that we've reached a point of increased political intolerance, where certain groups are simply unwilling to abide messages they don't agree with. This is nothing new, back in the 80's Amanda Waller was lecturing Reagan on welfare. It's just now it's some full-blown agenda that can't be supported by anyone who doesn't agree politically.

It's not hard to simply look around the comic book sites like this to see that the vast majority of readers aren't the type to ditch books because of some perceived liberal agenda. The only people saying THIS is the problem are the ones who want it to be.
You have to remember that the vast majority of comic readers don't frequent sites like this. In fact we're a fairly small number. But already of our small number we've had 4 or 5 people come on here and agree that the SJW mindset of the writers have been turn offs for them. Several of us have stopped buying Marvel, and we've stated that as one of the reasons. If that many people on a small thread such as this state that it's a problem and part of the reason why they've given up or lessened their Marvel buying, how many people out there beyond the message boards do you think agree? You must also remember that most people keep their politics silent. Many would just leave and not say why on a public forum. They'd just move on.

For me, as I've stated before, I don't mind there being politics in comics as long as topics are equally represented. I'm sure there are people out there who ADORED the Champions issue that absolutely trashed Trump and those who voted for him. But I could deal with that if there was something out there showing the positive sides of why Trump was elected, the things his voters saw in him, etc. Give Trump the Amazing Spider-Man/Obama treatment. Hit both sides of the spectrum. Heck, just depict him in the book as President in casual ways like they did with Obama from the moment he was elected.

When the only political topics/themes you see are the liberal/"progressive" ones, it becomes a turn off for those who disagree with those or lean more conservative.

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Old 04-16-2017, 11:33 AM   #41
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

*looks at the title*

Nah.

Though I love this argument. What exactly has been positive about Trump's election that a comic book writer would write about? Those things would have to exist for that to happen, ya know. This is also of course imposing things on writers.

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Old 04-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Liberal Writers Killing Marvel Comics?

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Here's a list of Marvel characters that I love that I can't read about because they've been replaced by minority characters for the sake of fulfilling their vision of "diversity": Thor, Logan, Bruce Banner, Iron Man, and Steve Rogers (initially replaced by Falcon, now Rogers is evil and for some reason Falcon kept the shield)

That list right there is a list of the most popular characters Marvel in the eyes of the general populace has hands down (granted, Spidey would have to be included to make the list complete and they haven't killed him yet). And I can't buy a comic about them. So, sure, there's other reasons Marvel sales are down too, but them writing off their most popular characters is absolutely a signifcant contributing factor. The best way to diversify can't possibly be by ticking people off by taking away their favourite characters and replacing them
I think heroes being replaced is one of the most significant reasons for the drop off. Replacing well known heroes with new legacy characters is often challenging. DC has done it steadily over time (although reboots Rebirth/Flashpoint reversed that a little by bringing certain characters back.)

Marvel replaced many of their popular characters in a very short period of time. A large amount of change in a short period of time will often get people;s backs up.

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Old 04-16-2017, 06:21 PM   #43
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I will admit, that my views are limited. I don't venture too much outside the X books, which are sort of inherently a liberal bias. Venom and Ghost Rider are about all I really do venture into for Marvel. Neither are what I would call very political. Though they have dealt with new characters taking up the mantel.

Agent Venom I think ended criticism by being really good. Not sure how political it would be considered, though Flash's journey is a good one.

Ghost Rider definitely got criticism. Especially coming off the previous, poorly received iteration. Though I'm sure many would feel that a story from a hispanic youth in the south side of LA would be considered liberal bs. I love Robbie, because he is very different than Blaze or Ketch. Though I think it helps that they didn't kill off a previous one for Robbie to exist. And a sudden new Ghost Rider isn't exactly new.

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Old 04-16-2017, 09:32 PM   #44
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just signing up for the fun.

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Old 04-16-2017, 11:49 PM   #45
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*looks at the title*

Nah.

Though I love this argument. What exactly has been positive about Trump's election that a comic book writer would write about? Those things would have to exist for that to happen, ya know. This is also of course imposing things on writers.

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Old 04-17-2017, 12:48 AM   #46
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That's wonderful, but it's not addressing the whole issue. Are they writing stories about conservatives "held hostage" by liberal media/hollywood? Is it telling stories of conservative-like characters fighting to improve the world? Is it telling stories of Christian oppression in the world? Is it telling stories of Christian or Catholic characters and the prosecution they face? White characters being devilized by other ethniticities?


And I thought the "SJWs" were the snowflakes.

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Old 04-17-2017, 12:51 AM   #47
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"Political Correctness Employees/Characters Killing Marvel Comics"

The title isn't an exact description of the article, but I agree with the article very much. The now obvious liberal slant of Marvel Comics and their creators has definitely destroyed a lot of interest in the comics line for me. And their writers are, in many cases, impossible to follow on Twitter if you're conservative. When a writer mocks your opinions and beliefs, it becomes very difficult to care about their books.

Just thought I'd share the article if anyone cared to read it, but this forum being primarily liberal posters, I doubt many would agree.
Del Arroz contradicts his premise almost instantly in this article. He claimed that Marvel has created almost "no new heroes" for the last 50 years, then goes on an ill-conceived rant about the all the new heroes.

The simple fact is that Marvel has always been a universe where morally shaded characters engage in multi-faceted conflicts. One of Marvel's most famous stories in recent times is Civil War, where the theme of government control vs. personal freedom was explored. In fact, Steve Rogers' Christian ethics were at the center of this as his passion for his country came into direct conflict with his loyalty to fellow heroes. Likewise, Tony Stark's logical, futurist view was put to the test when he waded into morally deep waters with the SHRA. The heroes' inner war was just as real as their conflict with one another. This is a perfect example of how Marvel addresses complex issues from many viewpoints.

The idea that the new crop of Marvel heroes (and DC, for that matter) is some kind of SJW/liberal conspiracy is ignorant of comic book history in its assertion. For decades, we've seen new characters take familiar monikers and veteran characters go through serious changes. Ongoing, shared tales being reset and refreshed to go in a different direction is nothing new. What is new is the publishers recognizing that the population is diversifying and fictional characters need to understandably reflect that change for the purpose of appealing to all segments of readers. Veteran readers shouldn't take this as an affront, nor should they worry since comics have a way of returning to the status quo.

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Old 04-17-2017, 12:51 AM   #48
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*looks at the title*

Nah.

Though I love this argument. What exactly has been positive about Trump's election that a comic book writer would write about? Those things would have to exist for that to happen, ya know. This is also of course imposing things on writers.
Chappelle has actually been working on a superhero who gets his powers from touching the vaginas of strangers. So.. I mean it's in the works so stop being a Debbie Downer.

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Old 04-17-2017, 09:23 AM   #49
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That's not the problem. It's the one-sidedness these days. It didn't used to be that way. You could read comics that came from a conservative angle or a Christian angle alongside those from a liberal, Jewish, and atheistic angle. The modern landscape of Marvel writers are overwhelmingly far left liberal and therefore if anything of "importance" is covered it's the liberal aspect of it with no attempt to cover the conservative point of view. And then if a conservative wishes the writers would just stick to comics and stop being political, they're mocked for it. God forbid you try to talk about it on Twitter. You'll have ignorant people like Nick Spencer calling you evil and all their liberal followers mocking and you basically being the liberal steriotype of insults rather than debate.

I first noticed it back when Millar wrote Ultimates 2 and then Parker bringing in Obama in Thunderbolts but was sure to pin the whole employing villains plot on Bush just prior to Obama coming in. No criticisms of Obama over 8 years of Marvel despite there being some cause here and there. But Trump's in office a month or two and there's already a comic absolutely slamming him and those who voted for him.

It's just irritating. Definitely one of those "never meet your idols" sort of thing. I remember back when Dan Slott was a regular here and I thought he was just amazing. Nowadays I can't even bring myself to read anything he's written due to how he insults those who disagree with him politically. Nick Spencer, of course, is the absolute worst.
Agree with you 100%, Hobbit. You pretty much covered it all in your first two posts, so no need for me to elaborate.

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Old 04-17-2017, 11:22 AM   #50
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Yeah, but DC has rebooted how many times now? I think Marvel is due. Time to clean house. Some have overstayed their welcome. The numbers don't lie, people are increasingly rejecting what their selling and the writers have poisoned the well with insults. Don't let the door hit ya.


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