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Old 12-28-2017, 07:39 AM   #976
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

Guys, tone down the condescension. On ALL sides. Please and thank you

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Old 12-28-2017, 07:43 AM   #977
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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This isn't a case like "How did Bruce Wayne get back into Gotham in TDKR?" or "How did Banner know exactly where to find the team in all of NYC during the climax of The Avengers?"
This is a movie series developing a character and then off screen developing a character, arguably backwards, which is bad writing.

I don't understand why you guys need to condescend with stuff like "Well I don't need everything spelled out for me" or "You guys are complaining just to complain" just because you don't like an opinion



Nobody said that

I dont think it was exactly difficult to spot where the battle was happening given it was broad daylight. Its nowhere near as bad as TDKR. And I cant speak for others, but I dont like an opinion that ignores every other fact just so that it can be stated as a fact. Everything you said was your gripe about CW has already been explained in detail. If you still feel those scenes did not work for you, that is fine. But none of that makes any of those objective assertions you made on CW and its plot and its writing and direction true. They are just not. Subjectively, if the movie and the plot and those sequences did not work for you, great. But those points were consistent with everything that happened before and made sense in-universe, which is why so many people celebrate those aspects of this movie.


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Old 12-28-2017, 07:51 AM   #978
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

I didn't know that Banner finding the team in NYC needed to be explained. Just find the hole in the sky and your team will likely be there.

I also didn't really know that Ant-man going outside of the law to do the right thing needed to be explained. It was kinda his schtick. You guys are acting like Ant-man ended with Scott vowing to never return back to crime in any form or fashion.

Bruce finding his way back in Rises and getting there in the nick of time just to create an elaborate fire-logo is a way bigger question mark than any of this.

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Old 12-28-2017, 07:59 AM   #979
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

Scott's attitude in Civil War is not continuity breaking, but it would have been better if the movie showed him being reluctant, instead of "eh, what else is new?"

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:03 AM   #980
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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But you can't tell me it's not lazy and/or sloppy storytelling.\
I agree, in Ant-Man Falcon was shown asking how he finds Ant-Man, but now how he convinced him to join them.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:07 AM   #981
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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Also, it's going to be addressed in Ant-Man and Wasp his actions in CW yes?
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They kinda have to unless the fugitive thing is resolved in Infinity War, which wouldn't surprise me if that's the case.

Very hyped for AatW though. Kinda wish it was still a heist movie, but I still think it'll be really interesting.
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I thought I read that Ant-Man and Wasp may take place prior to IW?

From what I seem to have read,
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
AM&TW will be about Hope and Hank being angry about Scott letting loose Antman on the world through that airport fight, as well as about exploring the Quantum Realm. So yeah, I expect events of CW to inform and drive the plot of that movie totally.


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Scott's attitude in Civil War is not continuity breaking, but it would have been better if the movie showed him being reluctant, instead of "eh, what else is new?"


Nah, if they had such a scene in CW, THAT would have been continuity breaking for me.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:08 AM   #982
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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I agree, in Ant-Man Falcon was shown asking how he finds Ant-Man, but now how he convinced him to join them.


Again, if you follow Lang's arc in that movie, its obvious he does not need much convincing.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:18 AM   #983
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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I agree, in Ant-Man Falcon was shown asking how he finds Ant-Man, but now how he convinced him to join them.
I can't tell if you're joking. Can you really not put the pieces together that the two have had conversations off-screen? Why does this need to be explained?

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:23 AM   #984
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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Again, if you follow Lang's arc in that movie, its obvious he does not need much convincing.
From the guy that got him out of prison maybe.

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I can't tell if you're joking. Can you really not put the pieces together that the two have had conversations off-screen? Why does this need to be explained?
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
The kind Donny had with Lance in the first episode of the Punisher?

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:30 AM   #985
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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The kind Donny had with Lance in the first episode of the Punisher?
I don't know what you're talking about.

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Old 12-28-2017, 08:32 AM   #986
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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Also, it's going to be addressed in Ant-Man and Wasp his actions in CW yes?
Yep. The director already said it will be addressed.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
He said the Pym's are going to not be happy about Scott running off and getting involved in Civil War.

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:00 AM   #987
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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I can't tell if you're joking. Can you really not put the pieces together that the two have had conversations off-screen? Why does this need to be explained?
Nothing ever happens offscreen. Which is why I'm expecting 10 minutes of IW to be devoted to a massive team-dump-break. They must be desperate by now!

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:03 AM   #988
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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Not at all. At no point in Ant-man do I think, "here's a guy who wouldn't do the right thing simply because it was outside of the law".

Captain America personally asked him to stop some master assassins from taking over the world. I don't for a second see how that's out of character or inconsistent in what they've established. It would have been nice if they had added in some obligatory hand-wringing about how it might affect his daughter, but CW already had enough going on and it isn't necessary.
But that's just it. When Cap suggests they might be breaking the law, Scott shrugs it off with a joke. They know it doesn't make sense for Scott to do that after his motivation in Ant-Man, and instead of trying to awkwardly justify it with yes the requisite "hand-wringing," they underplay it with a joke about Scott being jet lagged and starstruck. That is a scriptwriting deflection to cover over character inconsistencies.

I like Civil War a lot. Much more than Ant-Man, so it's not really an issue with the movie to me. But I definitely see it as writing for convenience to get the desired spectacle they want in the airport battle, and got it they did.

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:06 AM   #989
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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But that's just it. When Cap suggests they might be breaking the law, Scott shrugs it off with a joke. They know it doesn't make sense for Scott to do that after his motivation in Ant-Man, and instead of trying to awkwardly justify it with yes the requisite "hand-wringing," they underplay it with a joke about Scott being jet lagged and starstruck. That is a scriptwriting deflection to cover over character inconsistencies.

I like Civil War a lot. Much more than Ant-Man, so it's not really an issue with the movie to me. But I definitely see it as writing for convenience to get the desired spectacle they want in the airport battle, and got it they did.


Again, did you not see Ant Man? Where does Scott ever hesitate about breaking the law for the good? Doing that is what Scott's thing is. His daughter's arc is basically him proving himself to be the good guy in "her" eyes. Its really not a complex thing to process. You are essentially saying Scott doing what defines his character in CW was out of character.

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:07 AM   #990
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

Isn't the whole 3rd act of Ant-Man's break in of Pym Technologies a crime?

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:12 AM   #991
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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But that's just it. When Cap suggests they might be breaking the law, Scott shrugs it off with a joke.

They know it doesn't make sense for Scott to do that after his motivation in Ant-Man, and instead of trying to awkwardly justify it with yes the requisite "hand-wringing," they underplay it with a joke about Scott being jet lagged and starstruck. That is a scriptwriting deflection to cover over character inconsistencies.

I like Civil War a lot. Much more than Ant-Man, so it's not really an issue with the movie to me. But I definitely see it as writing for convenience to get the desired spectacle they want in the airport battle, and got it they did.
How does it not make sense with his motivation in Ant-man? What inconsistencies are there to "cover up"? His solo movie consisted of him committing multiple crimes in an effort to do the right thing and eventually get on better terms with his daughter. That was accomplished. He is now on better terms with his daughter.

Now he's personally approached by the Avengers to, once again, do the right thing even though it's technically outside of the law. Explain how this is, in your own words, "incredibly inconsistent".

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:34 AM   #992
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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His entire motivation in Ant-Man is to clear himself with the law so he can be there for his daughter.
Uh, no, it is far beyond that, which is clearly evident after his scene in the car with Hope where he tells her "I'm here because I'm expendable ."

He could have walked away; at that point neither Pym would have kept that law on him. He's still there because of the greater threat to everyone, including his daughter.

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:38 AM   #993
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Again, did you not see Ant Man? Where does Scott ever hesitate about breaking the law for the good? Doing that is what Scott's thing is. His daughter's arc is basically him proving himself to be the good guy in "her" eyes. Its really not a complex thing to process. You are essentially saying Scott doing what defines his character in CW was out of character.
I agree with you, but even that is a bit beside the point, I think. Cassie already thought he was a good guy; that arc was more about proving it to Maggie and Paxton.

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Old 12-28-2017, 09:39 AM   #994
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

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I don't know what you're talking about.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
"You in, or are you out?"
"I don't know.."
"Don't ask, just yes or no."
"Ok, I'm in"

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Old 12-28-2017, 10:12 AM   #995
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Scott's attitude in Civil War is not continuity breaking, but it would have been better if the movie showed him being reluctant, instead of "eh, what else is new?"
And I'm pretty sure thats what at least 95% of the people who brought up the point are saying

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I didn't know that Banner finding the team in NYC needed to be explained. Just find the hole in the sky and your team will likely be there.

I also didn't really know that Ant-man going outside of the law to do the right thing needed to be explained. It was kinda his schtick. You guys are acting like Ant-man ended with Scott vowing to never return back to crime in any form or fashion.

Bruce finding his way back in Rises and getting there in the nick of time just to create an elaborate fire-logo is a way bigger question mark than any of this.
They weren't near the hole in the sky if you look at it. If I recall they were a few blocks away

But Christ...that wasn't my point. I agree that it didn't need explaining. Same thing with how did Batman get back into Gotham. I used those 2 things of examples of storytelling that are fine without needing explanation or expansion.


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Old 12-28-2017, 10:32 AM   #996
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Scott's attitude in Civil War is not continuity breaking, but it would have been better if the movie showed him being reluctant, instead of "eh, what else is new?"

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And I'm pretty sure thats what at least 95% of the people who brought up the point are saying
But that would have been completely out of character for him.

He wants to be great, ("I need it to save the world, you know how it is") and he's totally impetuous ("Hi! I'm Scott!"); he doesn't think things through until afterwards ("If I tear myself in half, don't come back for me", "I thought it was a water truck. My bad!").

He's not the reluctant introspective guy; he the clueless one who wants to be included ("I ruined the moment didn’t I?")

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Old 12-28-2017, 10:40 AM   #997
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But that would have been completely out of character for him.

He wants to be great, ("I need it to save the world, you know how it is") and he's totally impetuous ("Hi! I'm Scott!"); he doesn't think things through until afterwards ("If I tear myself in half, don't come back for me", "I thought it was a water truck. My bad!").

He's not the reluctant introspective guy; he the clueless one who wants to be included ("I ruined the moment didn’t I?")
He hesitated breaking into Pym's house, he hesitates/has reservations becoming Ant-Man, he pauses for a second before going sub-atomic...

Scott really isn't that more reckless than most heroes. He's not like how Hal Jordan is often shown to be.

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Old 12-28-2017, 10:43 AM   #998
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

Not enough time was devoted to Ant-Man’s character to explain why he was willing to go to jail for Captain America. Sure, he’s a fan, but that’s not reason enough to justify him risking his relationship with his daughter. I mean, ****, it would’ve been enough for me to include a line about how his daughter actually ENCOURAGED him to fight.

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Old 12-28-2017, 11:13 AM   #999
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Default Re: Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - Part 42

He clearly didn't join thinking "wow, I'm going to jail if I do this".

He knew it was a possibility but superheroes regularly stick their neck out at the expense of their own personal safety and security to save the world. He's done it before.... and I'm sure he'll do it again.

I don't see why that's hard to swallow, regardless of whether or not they should have played him up to be more reluctant. I agree that it'd help us track his character a little better, but "bad writing" or "incredibly inconsistent"? Not really.

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Old 12-28-2017, 11:21 AM   #1000
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I agree with you, but even that is a bit beside the point, I think. Cassie already thought he was a good guy; that arc was more about proving it to Maggie and Paxton.
Yep, exactly. Its about giving her something to respond to when someone says "your dad went to jail".

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