Zak Penn and The Live Action Avengers Movie Threads Merged

[cookiva]

Do you guys think that Marvel knows that Penn can be manipulated to write a certain way, so they will get someone like Mark Millar to write an outline that doesnt involve major characters dying for shock value???

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by cookiva

Do you guys think that Marvel knows that Penn can be manipulated to write a certain way, so they will get someone like Mark Millar to write an outline that doesnt involve major characters dying for shock value???

Funniest thing ive read all day. Get Mark Millar not to kill someone off for shock value? BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[cookiva]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Funniest thing ive read all day. Get Mark Millar not to kill someone off for shock value? BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ya, after writing it, i realised that its hard to have an enriched sarcastic remark online. Seriously, think about it. People are saying that Penn is a terrible writer for the afforementioned act, but Millar will do the same. Come on guys! Try something else!

[Dew k. Mosi]

Bump for the Merge

[CConn]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

Then make the movie, but dont call it Avengers.

I wasn't gonna.

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

But I don't want an America Is Always Evil the Movie.
I don't want a dickwad Captain America. Although I would like to see a liberal Captain America. And by liberal, I mean liberal for 1945
I don't want a traitorous Black Widow
I don't want General Nick Fury: Agent of SHAFT
I want Thor to be a definite god, not a person who might or might not be a god
I don't want a mutant Wasp
I don't want a man-eating Hulk

And notice every one of those sentences starts with "I". Plenty of people have no problem with The Ultimates.

It's sorta funny though - we're of quite similar political beliefs, and I'm usually very sensitive to "liberal = good, conservative = evil" propaganda, but I've, oddly, never had a problem with the Ultimates. While Millar does put in plenty of liberal propaganda, he never seems to endorse it as being true or right - in fact, it seems to be the opposite. Everyone with the really liberal opinions (Thor, the bad guys of the in Ultimates 2), seem to be the evil - or at least crazy - guys of the series.

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

Having it fully based on the Ultimates is not the way to go. There are so many interpretations of the Avengers. It would be best to take the best of those interpretations and blend them together. Take the Ultimates cinematic storytelling and hell even base the story very loosely off it. Take the characters of the 616 universe

There are so many interpretations of the Avengers. But there's only one interpretation of the Ultimates. So far, at least.

Originally Posted by cookiva

Ya, after writing it, i realised that its hard to have an enriched sarcastic remark online. Seriously, think about it. People are saying that Penn is a terrible writer for the afforementioned act, but Millar will do the same. Come on guys! Try something else!

But - Millar, at least - does it well (IMO, at least).

[hippie_hunter]

Originally Posted by CConn

And notice every one of those sentences starts with "I". Plenty of people have no problem with The Ultimates.

I am not going to say we because "I" don't represent everyone's views

There are so many interpretations of the Avengers. But there's only one interpretation of the Ultimates. So far, at least.

The Ultimates are an interpretation of the Avengers. Just like Ultimate Spider-Man is a new interpretation of Spider-Man. Just like all the other Ultimate versions of characters are new interpretations of the Marvel characters.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

The Ultimates are an interpretation of the Avengers. Just like Ultimate Spider-Man is a new interpretation of Spider-Man. Just like all the other Ultimate versions of characters are new interpretations of the Marvel characters.

But theyre not the Avengers, same way Ultimate Spider-Man isnt 616 SPider-Man.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by hippie_hunter

I am not going to say we because "I" don't represent everyone's views

Which is good - hell, thank you for it - but, my point is, it's not like your opinion is how most people feel - it's not like The Ultimates is like...All Star Batman, where everyone thinks it sucks, it does suck, and end of story. The Ultimates is a quite well recieved piece of writing.

Originally Posted by Darthphere

But theyre not the Avengers, same way Ultimate Spider-Man isnt 616 SPider-Man.

I actually agree with hippie_hunter on this. Characterization-wise, they are just different intepretations of the same characters. However, I'm more looking at The Ultimates as both the characters and the story itself so, like I said, if altered it greatly, you really don't have "The Ultimates" anymore, IMO.

[Darthphere]

All im saying is its quite easy, if Marvel is going to make an adaptation of the Ultimates, call it just that, not Avengers. Because at their core, both teams maybe similar, but theyre agendas and motivations are very different. Its somehting I hope you can understand.

[CConn]

Oh, I do. I would call it that. Like I said, as a total package, I believe The Ultimates to be a completely different animal than the Avengers.

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by CConn

Oh, I do. I would call it that. Like I said, as a total package, I believe The Ultimates to be a completely different animal than the Avengers.

Yeah, id be the first in line to watch an Ultimates movie, that first volume is epic. But I want something akin to the Avengers with Ultron or Loki or somethign like that.

[Rac]

Oh noes. Didn't know that Penn was writing this. I guess Marvel didn't learn from Elektra or X3. Maybe when Hulk 2 sucks they realise the mistake(s)... or not.

[matt2324]

Zak Penn sucks he wrote and ruined elektra for life! I hope elektra assassin him for being a idiot.

[TheVileOne]

The most hilarious thing ever was Zak Penn gushing over Ultimates talking about how it proved that superheroes don't have to be "goofy."

Proof that Penn has obviously never actually read an issue of Ultimates.

[Spider - Man]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

The most hilarious thing ever was Zak Penn gushing over Ultimates talking about how it proved that superheroes don't have to be "goofy."

Proof that Penn has obviously never actually read an issue of Ultimates.

So what's so "goofy" about Ultimates?

Not that I'm defending them for anything. Just curious.

[TheVileOne]

-Ultimate Hulk:

"HULK SMASH FREDDIE PRINZE JR.!"

"HULK NOT A SISSY BOY! HULK STRAIGHT!"

-Hulk eating his nurse staff.

-Ultimate Thor.

-Ultimate Cap:

"Does this look like an F on my forehead?!"

-Ultimates sitting in a room talking about who should play them in their movie. Nick Fury saying he should be played by Samuel L. Jackson. Hank talking about how Steve Buscemi should play Bruce Banner.

-The Wasp flashing her tits in a fight for a distraction.

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

-Ultimate Hulk:

"HULK SMASH FREDDIE PRINZE JR.!"

"HULK NOT A SISSY BOY! HULK STRAIGHT!"

-Hulk eating his nurse staff.

-Ultimate Thor.

-Ultimate Cap:

"Does this look like an F on my forehead?!"

-Ultimates sitting in a room talking about who should play them in their movie. Nick Fury saying he should be played by Samuel L. Jackson. Hank talking about how Steve Buscemi should play Bruce Banner.

-The Wasp flashing her tits in a fight for a distraction.

All good reasons why we shouldn't Ultimatise the movie. We've already got a couple of animated ones.

I would like the movie to be mostly, if not all The Avengers and not The Ultimates. In 616 these guys are human, well rounded characters (mostly), but in Ultimates they all seem to be irredeemable jackasses.

I wouldn't mind a couple of things borrowed from the Ultimates such as an updated Thor costume, but not an exact copy of the Ultimate one. Plus I would like people to quesion his Godhood, but he has to be an actual God.

I don't mind Nick Fury being black, but only if he's played by Sam Jackson and only if he's 616 Fury in character. Ultimate Fury is a knob and deserves that destined Pwning from Spider-man.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

All good reasons why we shouldn't Ultimatise the movie. We've already got a couple of animated ones.

Do you even get that these so called ULTIMATE AVENGERS animated movies are a lot more like Avengers than Ultimate Avengers?

For whatever reason Marvel/Lionsgate saw fit to stay clear of the actual content of Ultimates as much as possible for these animated movies. Simply keeping some of the costumes and plot elements.

I would like the movie to be mostly, if not all The Avengers and not The Ultimates. In 616 these guys are human, well rounded characters (mostly), but in Ultimates they all seem to be irredeemable jackasses.

And goofy jackasses. But according to screenwriter Zak Penn, The Ultimates proves for the first time ever that superheroes don't have to be goofy.

Can anyone honestly say that this is someone that should be writing an Avengers movie?

I wouldn't mind a couple of things borrowed from the Ultimates such as an updated Thor costume, but not an exact copy of the Ultimate one. Plus I would like people to quesion his Godhood, but he has to be an actual God.

You know people did that in the actual comics before Ultimates came around right?

I don't mind Nick Fury being black, but only if he's played by Sam Jackson and only if he's 616 Fury in character. Ultimate Fury is a knob and deserves that destined Pwning from Spider-man.

It would essentially be Jackson from those crappy XXX movies.

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

Do you even get that these so called ULTIMATE AVENGERS animated movies are a lot more like Avengers than Ultimate Avengers?

For whatever reason Marvel/Lionsgate saw fit to stay clear of the actual content of Ultimates as much as possible for these animated movies. Simply keeping some of the costumes and plot elements.

I did see elements of the Avengers in there, but I just thought it was a softer version of the Ultimates. They would have went all the way but they probably thought they could reach a younger market with this cartoon as well. Hulk was still fairly evil, there was too little character development, still seems fairly Ultimate too me. Plus those two movies just felt like a couple of episodes in a series (extended, but episodes).

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

And goofy jackasses. But according to screenwriter Zak Penn, The Ultimates proves for the first time ever that superheroes don't have to be goofy.

Can anyone honestly say that this is someone that should be writing an Avengers movie?

Probably not. I'd rather not have a bastardised version of the Avengers.

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

You know people did that in the actual comics before Ultimates came around right?

Yeah, I pretty much knew about some costume changes. Though most people in the Marvel Universe have had that, so asking for another one that's reflective of todays tastes isn't wrong. Plus, the fact that 616 Thor has gone back to his classic look is cause for concern when it comes to a movie adaption.

Originally Posted by TheVileOne

It would essentially be Jackson from those crappy XXX movies.

It's not like we're talking about Jean Claude Van Damme. Jackson is an accomplished actor, he'll pull it off if given the chance.

[marcvader]

Although I want an Avengers movie just like the next guy, I've got a really bad feeling about this. It seems to me like this is going to be typically rushed and really foul. It just that doesn't make any sense that they have an Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, and maybe Ant Man movies in the pipeline and yet they also plan to make an Avengers? These movies should be expensive individually and will have their own takes on these characters yet they plan to make a team movie? Add all of this up and this looks like it's going to be garbage. You're either going to get an Avengers with a neutered version of Iron Man, Thor, and maybe Hulk or get a second tier line up of the Hawkeye, Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver variety which would completely suck unless made in sequels. Remember that all the solo movies will have their own directors, writers, actors, continuities, and looks. Average moviegoers will be completely confused seeing the bad ass Iron Man in his own movie then see a watered down version of him in Avengers because of cost. Unless they really think and plan and take their time with this you''ll get an even worse X3.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

I did see elements of the Avengers in there, but I just thought it was a softer version of the Ultimates. They would have went all the way but they probably thought they could reach a younger market with this cartoon as well. Hulk was still fairly evil, there was too little character development, still seems fairly Ultimate too me. Plus those two movies just felt like a couple of episodes in a series (extended, but episodes).

Which just goes to show that Ultimates itself is not viable for this market, or Marvel doesn't think it is beyond the comics. So for animation and movies, they will do something more sanitized.

Yeah, I pretty much knew about some costume changes. Though most people in the Marvel Universe have had that, so asking for another one that's reflective of todays tastes isn't wrong. Plus, the fact that 616 Thor has gone back to his classic look is cause for concern when it comes to a movie adaption.

Referring to people questioning Thor being a God.

It's not like we're talking about Jean Claude Van Damme. Jackson is an accomplished actor, he'll pull it off if given the chance.

Jackson is more interested in half-assed self-parodying performances for a big paycheck. At Comic Con he basically said he'd do anything for the right check, or a cute sister.

[thegameq]

Originally Posted by Shuley

Besides, do you realize the size of what the budget is going to be? If they make this out to be a Fantastic Four movie with stupid jokes and such, I'm going to take my own life,they better not screw this up.

Therein lies my biggest fear. After seeing what was done to the X-franchise and FF4, I have lost faith in Hollywood to do a true comicbook adaptation--the exception of course being the SM films (thank God for them).

The biggest thing that seems to hurt these films the most is the lack of support ($$$$$$) and vision for these types of films. I don't want to see a half-assed, toned down for the sake of saving money (see the now infamous "realism" excuse) comicbook film. All comicbook films should follow Columbia's and Raimi's blueprint.

If a studio isn't willing to go the distance with these types of films, why get the rights to do them in the first place?

[thegameq]

Originally Posted by GNR4Life

Penn hasn't done anything noteworthy that get's me excited in the pants.

Why the f____ does Marvel always go to this guy for writing chores??Honestly,this isn't looking good.Hopefully the solo films all do well with the director being one hell of a talent.

Dude that is the best question I've heard on these boards in a long time. What is so outstanding about this guy that they keep going to him? His body of work speaks for itself; it's not good.

could it be that he works cheap as opposed to the the top tier talent in H'wood? Why do we keeping getting the "second team" for these films instead of the first team?

The answer is most likely $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Asteroid-Man]

Really great to read through this stuff now. Gives you a feeling of how right and wrong we really were.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by Asteroid-Man

Really great to read through this stuff now. Gives you a feeling of how right and wrong we really were.

I was mostly right about Zak Penn. There were similar elements but mostly they avoided an Ultimates route.

I was very relieved to hear when Whedon came on that he was starting from scratch and re-writing the script. I don't think Penn was ever the right fit for these movies. Most of the characterizations in these movies are more in line with their 616 personalities and characters besides some cosmetic elements.

I recall reading that Whedon stating he could not film the draft Penn wrote. Not to say that was a complete knock on Penn's interpretation but I guess that for him to get a handle on it he needed to alter his take.

The Ultimate was dark and gritty at times, but it was not at all "serious." It was goofy and over the top as hell just not in a traditional super hero comic book, campy type of way.