Amazing Spider-Man #610 spoilers/comments

[stillanerd]

Surprised no one started a thread on this issue yet. Oh, well guess I'll be the first then, so here's what I thought about it:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

*One good thing I’ll say about this issue is that Guggenheim does a decent job with parallel narratives, as was the case throughout all of this story arc. Here, the narratives are even more or less mirror images: One involves a confrontation between Ben and Damon, interrupted by Kaine, which causes the Ryder’s house to catch fire, and Damon’s family to be in danger. The other involves a confrontation between Peter and Damon (now Raptor) interrupted by Kaine (and Screwball), which causes Aunt May’s house to catch fire, and Peter’s cousins (and Harry) to be in danger. Also (and this is something I just realized) since the story involves clones, it makes the idea of both stories being virtually similar, albeit with different circumstances and outcomes, that more symbolic.

*Unfortunately, what brings this issue (and the whole story arc) down is it’s predictability. Of course, Ben is revealed to be entirely innocent and that the fire was started once Kaine burst into the room. And of course, Harry and the Reilly girls didn’t learn Peter was Spider-Man thanks, once again, to Kaine barging in. The only surprises was that Damon was the one who actually killed his family due to going temporarily insane from the dinosaur DNA injection (which, given his prior behavior, didn‘t seem all that shocking) and the second was that Peter, prior to arriving at the house, had contacted Screwball to take her up on her challenge, which explains why she was in this story arc to begin with (although technically it could have been any C-list super villain really). At least that showed Peter’s ability to plan ahead knowing he was likely to walk into a trap, so it’s good Guggenheim showed that aspect of Peter’s character.

*But, just as Screwball, because she was really a device used to set-up the climax, made her seem disposable, there were quite a few characters in this story who also were nothing more than plot devices and could have been exchanged for any other character, it seems to me. For one thing, wouldn’t the scene at Parker household been far more effective if it was Aunt May and J. Jonah Jameson Senior instead of Harry and the Reilly girls? After all, we DID get a scene showing May and Jay on their honeymoon about to come back to New York, so why not follow up on that in this story? And, thinking back to last issue, wouldn’t it have been more effective to have Raptor encounter Mary Jane instead of Michele? Not only would we have had a follow-up to MJ’s reaction towards her seeing Spidey and the Black Cat kiss on the JumboTron in Kelly’s “Long Term Arrangement” story, but, considering how MJ also knew the truth behind the Clone Saga and actually knew Ben and was close friends with him, it would have been great to see her reaction to Raptor’s claims. And finally, Raptor himself was disposable, as it seems he was merely just an excuse to reintroduce Kaine back into the Spidey books, especially since it appears Kaine strangles Raptor to death at the conclusion of the story.

*There was also problems in that a series of unanswered questions arose which seemed to be real plot holes. For one thing, why, after Kaine unmasks Spider-Man does Raptor STILL think Peter’s Ben Reilly? Remember, the way we’ve been told the psychic blindspot works, is that once Spider-Man is unmasked, the those who had prior knowledge that Peter was Spider-Man would regain it. And since Peter unmasked himself at a live TV press conference, the whole world knew he was Spider-Man, hence the reason behind the psychic blindspot in the first place. So you mean to tell me that Raptor, ever since his family died, NEVER watched TV, read a newspaper, surfed online, NOTHING? He was the only one in the whole world who didn’t know about Spidey unmasking during Civil War? Or is it because he’s insane and, therefore, the psychic blindspot doesn’t work on him? But if that’s the case, why are other insane people--like the Green Goblin for instance--still get effected by the blindspot? Also, Kaine STILL thinks Peter is the clone and Ben was the original? I guess that makes some sense, given that he was in prison during the time it was revealed Ben was the clone all along. But it doesn’t really add to Kaine’s motivation, since he flat out states “there’s no difference between [Peter and Ben].” And speaking of which, Peter states that Ben wasn’t a killer because he himself isn’t a killer. And yet, Kaine, being a clone of Peter himself, tells Ben in the flashback that he and Ben are “the same person,” and since he is capable of cold blooded murder, wouldn’t that also make Peter and Ben capable as well? Heck, even Peter hints at this earlier when he says “It’s what’s always bothered me about Kaine--whatever Ben was capable of…I am too.” Sorry, Guggenheim, you can’t have it both ways on this one.

*Even the art, in places, just didn’t seem to be up to par. Checchetto was all right in places, although there were times it just seemed stiff, such as when Screwball burst through the window, or when Peter was thrown by Kaine through the wall. However, when it came to Ross and Magyar, it just seemed completely off. The scenes felt too “clean,” generic, and lacking any sense of dynamism, save for when Kaine appeared in the flames with his hair and beard completely singed. Considering how this issue was actually delayed, you would think this would have given them time to actually improve things artistically.

Let me stress that this is not a bad story. Yet, being that it’s Guggenheim’s last tale for Amazing Spider-Man (save for that Jackpot mini series coming out) it feels like a very lackluster, paint-by-numbers one for his “swan song.” Secondly, this story was also supposed to reintroduce elements of the Clone Saga back into the new status quo of Brand New Day, and it seemed like it was more of a half-hearted attempt rather than a genuine effort. Maybe it’s due primarily to the brain trust/webheads putting more of their energy into “The Gauntlet,” but it appears we’ve gone into another uninspired lull for this title, and if Marvel really want people to embrace the creative direction they’ve done for Spider-Man--which they’re still having problems with almost two years after One More Day--they better step up their game.

So, what did anyone else think?

[AgentEnforcer]

Hey! I'll repost my thoughts here, which echo yours, from the Ben Reilly thread. That is where debate about this arc has already started.

So... after reading the last issue of the "Who was Ben Reilly" arc I can honestly say it was a total dissappointment, and one of the weaker stories of Brand New Day. Who was Ben Reilly? We don't learn anything new except that he worked with a new character who has part Dino DNA. This character believed Ben killed his family. What really happened? You may not want to continue if you don't want it spoiled... it's not very good or interesting anyway. So, what really happened back then? It looks like Ryder killed his own family. That what Ben says, and beats up on Ryder a bit. It's also possible Kaine just killed them. Kaine shows up and is pushed into the fire place and that's what causes the fire. Ryder doesn't believe that he killed his own family and is knocked out by a pissed off Reilly before he sees Kaine at all. Kaine attacks Ben one last time, but he has no hair or beard because it burned off. Even though he has been burned and lost all his hair, Kaine really has no other injuries. Odd... I didn't know he was burn proof. He has no Clone degeneration at this point, it is worth noting. So thats it, either Kaine killed his family, and doesn't admit it to Ben, or Ryder did himself. The latter is really lame, so i'll just assume Kaine did it to screw over Ben. But really, if Kaine did it, it's just a rehash of an old story, and if Ryder did it himself... it just an even stupider plot point. In the present, Harry is roughed up a bit by Raptor/Damon and Kaine tosses Peter around. Peter is thrown through a wall and is able to change into costume as Screwball appears. Spider-Man gets everyone out of the house, rips Screwball's camera off of her helmet, presumably she gets away, and Kaine pulls off Peter's mask to explain things to to Ryder. Kaine says that since Ryder wants Reilly dead and Peter is his clone, he might get just as much satisfaction by killing Peter. I guess the deal is Ryder will cure Kaine if he is able to take revenge on Reilly/Peter. Peter beats up Ryder as Kaine takes off. Peter makes a big speech about how he knows what Ben was capable of because he and Ben were the same, and Ben could not have murdered his family. The police show up and Spidey takes off, as does Ryder... somehow.

The resolution? Peter's cousins and Harry wonder how Peter doesn't have broken bones after being thrown through a wall, and also comment that Kaine looks a lot like Peter, with more muscle and hair. Damon/Raptor tells Kaine he lied about being able to cure him and Kaine seemingly just kills him. So the loose end of someone knowing Peter's identity is taken care of... making Raptor a totally pointless character. The resolution makes basically every point they tried to raise with the story meaningless. Either due to the writing or the art, a lot of it didn't make sense, most in regard to how people managed to get away.

With so much going on, you really have to suspend disbelief to even follow the story. You have to assume Ryder was so crazy and out of it that he did not remember killing his own family, or that Kaine really did it, and that Ryder does not really get a good look at Kaine in the past because why would he team up with him in the present? Yet, Ryder definatly remembers Ben being there and beating him up. Also, I have to double check, but Ben is drawn wearing a completely different outfit in this issue than he was in the flashback in the annual.

Another plot point which I have to go back to the old book and re-read to see if it's accurate, but did Ben always know Kaine was his clone? Even in Lost Years? Because Kaine says outright, they have the same DNA and stuff in this story in the past. So when Kaine was revealed back in the day as another Peter clone, it was only a surprise to the reader and Peter? As I said, I have to do some re-reading. But in this story, Ben always knew who and what Kaine was.

So I guess this is it for Ben in regular continuity. For some reason Peter doubted him and was worried he was a murderer, until the end when he was reminded by Kaine that he and Ben are the same, and Ben couldn't possibly be a murderer because Peter isn't... he was reminded of this by Kaine, who ALSO has the same DNA... and IS a murderer. Anyway, the story was at least a glimpse of Ben back in the day that for the most part doesn't hurt or alter his character.

The modern stuff is a mess, introducing Screwball who is a complete throwaway as a character. Ryder/Raptor is pointless and he is killed off, anyway, even after learning the truth. Kaine, who I always thought really had no problem with Peter, and went so far as trying to kill and torment Ben to make sure he didn't ruin Peter's life, is now shown as not caring what happens to Peter at all. Enjoying beating on him, and his suffering.

As Guggenheim's final Spidey story he goes out on a really weak note. It's a really convoluted plot, which is based on really weak points. It's good to have seen Ben but, dammit, he deserved a better story.

[C. Pumpkins]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Peter states that Ben wasn’t a killer because he himself isn’t a killer. And yet, Kaine, being a clone of Peter himself, tells Ben in the flashback that he and Ben are “the same person,” and since he is capable of cold blooded murder, wouldn’t that also make Peter and Ben capable as well? Heck, even Peter hints at this earlier when he says “It’s what’s always bothered me about Kaine--whatever Ben was capable of…I am too.” Sorry, Guggenheim, you can’t have it both ways on this one.

Originally Posted by AgentEnforcer

For some reason Peter doubted him and was worried he was a murderer, until the end when he was reminded by Kaine that he and Ben are the same, and Ben couldn't possibly be a murderer because Peter isn't... he was reminded of this by Kaine, who ALSO has the same DNA... and IS a murderer. Anyway, the story was at least a glimpse of Ben back in the day that for the most part doesn't hurt or alter his character.

Well, the way I see it, Kaine is an inferior clone to Ben thus Kaine is capable of killing.

Here are my thoughts (or half-ass review, take your pick).

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Damon Ryder attempts to recreate his tragic past to assault Peter's fam, but eventually ends up with Kaine choking him WWE Undertaker style. Lots of story in between those two events, but Ryder's payback deal is injured by both Damon lying to Kaine about a cure, and Kaine not forthcoming about Ben's real ID. Like I said, a lot happens, and you're left to fill in a few gaps, but the story sequencing is liquid.

Both Ben and Kaine are responsible for the original fire although I'm a little confused here. Ben launches himself at Kaine pressing Kaine's back to the fireplace. Kaine's back erupts in flames and he howls, but the fire is somehow transferred from his back to his fist. Does Kaine's mark transfer heat? I dunno. Anyway, his punch misses Ben, hits the wall; and viola, conflagration that takes the lives of Ryder's fam. Or so we think! Damon Ryder doesn't possess much mental control and in his dino-rage kills his own family. Then immediately snapping out of Raptor mode, he becomes irrationally afraid of Ben and asks Ben to spare their lives. Whaa? Oh well, Damon's crazy so it works.

Screwball arrives in the nick of time to distract everyone so that Harry and the Reillys can skedaddle, but not before Peter manages a punch that sends Kaine to the ground. I'd be really impressed if I was Pete's friend, but anyway! Cool fighting scenes continue which leads to Spidey being unmasked by Kaine! But umm.. there's no one around accept an unconscious Screwball and Raptor who later seems to get killed by Kaine so... whew, everything is A-OK, we're back to Spidey keeping his alias secret.

Hey, Guggenheim resorts to lifting a commercial script, I forget which commercial though. Does anyone here remember? You know, the one that has a narrator yapping about this costs that, and that costs this, but this is... priceless. Anyway, it sucked that Guggenheim used it.

Checchetto's art doesn't wow as much as last issue, but it's still fun.

Solid B. (I'm ultimately frustrated by Kaine. Web of Spider-Man #1 left the reader hopeful that Kaine was one of the good guys and that he might not be degenerating. This latest ASM arc reads as if none of these things occurred. It's disappointing, and helps to bring this issue down to the B grading.)

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Combustible Pumpkins

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Commercial = Mastercard.

[C. Pumpkins]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Commercial = Mastercard.

Thanks!

[Webhead2006]

i thought the arc was ok, cant wait to see whats up next. So mark is leaving asm for awhile then?

[Ultimate Kaine]

I loved it. Of course, it doesn't take much to please me. I thought bald/hairless Kaine looked pretty badass and would even prefer that look over his hobo look. Hope he starts up using the suit again. I guess Kaine will appear throughout The Gauntlet bumping off a few enemies as he did back in the day. Anyway, I was highly pleased with this. I'm glad they didn't bring the Clone Saga back full force (just yet) because it gives Kaine a genuine chance at becoming a permanent part of the ongoing Spidey Mythos outside of clone-related storylines.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I just reread ASM #608 -610 to see if I would like it as a whole, or if it would be a letdown like some have said. I actually like it more now. It made me very nostalgic for Ben and Kaine. I thought both were in-character. I will say that I prefer Luke Ross's 90's art to his current stuff. His static shots are okay, but his action shots have no dynamism to them. Plus like others have pointed out, Ben and Ryder could be clones of each other. They should have made Ryder look a lot different than another generic skinny brown-haired young guy. Raptor and Screwball are both pretty lame, but Kaine fighting Peter and seeing Ben Reilly in action again more than made up for it. And I agree about the burning, bald Kaine. It was badass. And everyone complaining about the end being predictable with Ryder or Kaine (probably Ryder) having killed his family, would you have preferred it if it was Ben Reilly who killed them? I remember people freaking out about that very prospect a couple months ago ("Guggenheim is making Ben a KILLER!!1") after the annual came out, so honestly people should be relieved.

Anyway, it was enjoyable and fun and best of all re-introduced one of my favorite characters. Sure it wasn't the best Kaine story ever, but it's kinda like when your favorite musician comes out with a new album after a decade hiatus. Maybe the critics pick it apart and say it's not as good as the old stuff, but you're just thrilled to have some new material.

[Themanofbat]

I'm just glad to see Marvel finally acknowledging a part of Spider-Man's history that he seemingly been forgotten for so long... the story was a tad sub-par, mostly due to the bad art, in my opinion..

And as far as For one thing, why, after Kaine unmasks Spider-Man does Raptor STILL think Peter’s Ben Reilly? Remember, the way we’ve been told the psychic blindspot works, is that once Spider-Man is unmasked, the those who had prior knowledge that Peter was Spider-Man would regain it." goes... it's obvious that Damon was too wrapped up with his own revenge that he couldn't have been bothered to pay attention to what was happening in NYC, because had he even saw the unmasking, he would have recognized Ben Reilly, and not Peter Parker. And when the mask came off, Damon didn't see Peter Parker, he saw Ben Reilly, which is the face that he will always see while Peter's face is an imposter (or a pseudonym)... it's not insanity on Damon's part... he just "sees" Ben Reilly's face... the man he hates with a passion.

[Webhead2006]

i have have a quick question about ben reilly character when he was around in the 90s, didnt he change his hair style/color from peter back then? I thought he did?

[Ion Kenshin]

He was blonde for a time if I am not mistaken.

[AgentEnforcer]

Originally Posted by Webhead2006

i have have a quick question about ben reilly character when he was around in the 90s, didnt he change his hair style/color from peter back then? I thought he did?

He did. From the time he took over as Spider-Man to the time of his death he was blonde.

Everything before that, including the past events of this story, he had his normal hair color.

[Webhead2006]

oh ok i thought i remember seeing pictures of him blonde so it was blonde at a point after this past story was taken place then huh>?

[moraldeficiency]

Originally Posted by Webhead2006

oh ok i thought i remember seeing pictures of him blonde so it was blonde at a point after this past story was taken place then huh>?

Yeah, basically once ben came into Pete's life he died his hair so they didn't look like twins. Everything before that (which is where all these flashbacks come from) he just looked like Peter and apparently exactly like raptor as well. God they looked identical in these stories.