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Old 09-17-2017, 07:58 AM   #676
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

That is why I try to stay away from social justice and vengeance warriors. They are actually worse for whatever their cause usually is than whatever or whoever they are protesting against. If you don't agree exactly with their line of thinking you are wrong and an open target even if you agree with them on the overall issue.

Being right doesn't justify the attitudes most of them have.

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Old 09-17-2017, 07:59 AM   #677
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Tim League looking fantastic.

http://www.thewrap.com/todd-brown-no...agues-apology/

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Old 09-17-2017, 08:09 AM   #678
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That is why I try to stay away from social justice and vengeance warriors. They are actually worse for whatever their cause usually is than whatever or whoever they are protesting against. If you don't agree exactly with their line of thinking you are wrong and an open target even if you agree with them on the overall issue.

Being right doesn't justify the attitudes most of them have.
You know I get annoyed with a lot of things on the social justice beat. Cultural appropriation is a legit one that drives me up the wall. But no matter how bad those things get, I can't imagine it being worse then those that murder, rape, and assault people. Then racist. They can't be worse for the cause then those that let those things presist on a large scale. Look at the judge in the Brock Turner case.

I understand I get emotional about this stuff, and there is a legitimate call for rehabilitation and integration. But why do we need to minimize what was done while doing that? Because if we are talking murder even, there is legitimate argument that a murderer can be rehabilitated and integrated back into society. Same for child molester. But would we do it without punishment and making sure they did the work? Not saying we always do, but would anyone really argue it shouldn't be that way?

Sexual assault and rape are handle rather oddly considering what we are talking about.

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Old 09-17-2017, 09:16 AM   #679
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I'm not sure what prejudices you speak to, but as a 30 year old white male who would consider himself a moderate leaning left, the only prejudice I have is for these white male performative allyship types that do more harm to the cause. They often prove to be hyprocites that make the rest of those to left look worse. You can make change happen day to day without being an *******.

I wouldn't say I'm seeking vengeance, but there's a heavy dose of schadenfeude going on here. Devin would've been the ringleader for a witch hunt had this centered on someone else; decreeing there are no second chances for something like this and that they'd be excommunicated from the industry. If he truly believed what he preached, he would've been conscious enough to not weasel his way back in, especially in this fashion.

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Old 09-17-2017, 09:34 AM   #680
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

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Originally Posted by BeserkerHilf View Post
I'm not sure what prejudices you speak to, but as a 30 year old white male who would consider himself a moderate leaning left, the only prejudice I have is for these white male performative allyship types that do more harm to the cause. They often prove to be hyprocites that make the rest of those to left look worse. You can make change happen day to day without being an *******.

I wouldn't say I'm seeking vengeance, but there's a heavy dose of schadenfeude going on here. Devin would've been the ringleader for a witch hunt had this centered on someone else; decreeing there are no second chances for something like this and that they'd be excommunicated from the industry. If he truly believed what he preached, he would've been conscious enough to not weasel his way back in, especially in this fashion.
Interestingly, your entire post pretty much corroborates this one below:

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Originally Posted by DA_Champion View Post
An ironic thing about the social vengeance warriors is that they are likely (unintentionally) indulging in the same virtue signaling that they accuse Faraci and Whedon of having engaged in.
What I find unusual is you find the need to identify yourself as a white male, and to identify your political leanings - and then go on to criticize some manner of Faraci's behavior (which I somewhat agree with) but you do it as though your white maleness is somehow better than Faraci's because there's no proof you've behaved hypocritically.

However - RE:the bolded section; you then go on to say Faraci would've been leading a similar witch hunt against someone else (probably correct) after you and some others have already said he should effectively be condemned to destitution for the rest of his life. Is there not some hypocrisy in condemning him for cruelty and bad behavior online but then continuing to state that you want him "flipping burgers for the rest of his life"? I'm not equating them - but they're on a similar continuum.

This entire debacle is a fascinating look at the dynamic online, where people don't trust the institutions designed to deal with these cases and see fit to arrogate to the rest of society what the "right" reaction is to these sorts of things, instead of mostly resigning that responsibility to the concerned parties and the existing legal systems. I can completely agree with whatever punishment a court thinks is correct, I would fully support the requests of the victims, and I think those who have seen Faraci's unacceptable behavior online could weigh in to a degree, but I reject this notion that the many-headed entity that is the internet should be able to be judge, jury, and executioner as enthusiastically as it has been.

Schadenfreude is one reaction, I find the entire thing sad and disappointing; that this cruel but clearly dysfunctional man would do those things, and sad that the people he did them to have to deal with it, but I don't think doling out exaggerated punishment at him solves anything besides any one individuals strange desire for vicarious revenge.

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Old 09-17-2017, 09:46 AM   #681
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

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Groping is one way of putting it. But he didn't grab this woman's bottom or breast, which would be awful enough. If I remember correctly, he did Trump's favorite past time. Then proceeded to ask everyone to smell his fingers. So yeah.
Oh right... what a c***

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Old 09-17-2017, 10:38 AM   #682
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I understand I get emotional about this stuff, and there is a legitimate call for rehabilitation and integration. But why do we need to minimize what was done while doing that? Because if we are talking murder even, there is legitimate argument that a murderer can be rehabilitated and integrated back into society. Same for child molester. But would we do it without punishment and making sure they did the work? Not saying we always do, but would anyone really argue it shouldn't be that way?

Sexual assault and rape are handle rather oddly considering what we are talking about.
That's what I and the other posters you had been arguing with said from the beginning.
Nobody here downplayed it, just that some of us pointed out that what Faraci did, while disgusting, is not a capital crime legally or not even slightly on the same level of murder in our opinion.
We always explicitly stated that sexual offenders should be punished by the State AND psychiatrically helped.
For my part I was just noting how extreme I found the calls for exile from society.
And demeaning, to who is economically struggling, to paint flipping burgers as some sort of deservedly earned hell. No one which said that considered this point in their replies... I wonder why.
In the end the only people who could maybe weight Faraci's sincerity would be the women hurt by him, and I don't know if they even are interested in that or how much that's for public scrutiny.

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Old 09-17-2017, 10:56 AM   #683
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

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That's what I and the other posters you had been arguing with said from the beginning.
Nobody here downplayed it, just that some of us pointed out that what Faraci did, while disgusting, is not a capital crime legally or not even slightly on the same level of murder in our opinion.
We always explicitly stated that sexual offenders should be punished by the State AND psychiatrically helped.
For my part I was just noting how extreme I found the calls for exile from society.
And demeaning, to who is economically struggling, to paint flipping burgers as some sort of deservedly earned hell. No one which said that considered this point in their replies... I wonder why.
In the end the only people who could maybe weight Faraci's sincerity would be the women hurt by him, and I don't know if they even are interested in that or how much that's for public scrutiny.
Not being on the level of murder doesn't mean it isn't up there. What exactly is worse then sexual assault? Murder, torture (which sexual assault is also) and what? Serious question. Because think of everything sexual assault entails, including child molestation and rape.

lodovica I want to be clear. You don't think people should be allowed to voice their opinion on someone hiring a sexual offender? I am asking because you said they should be punished by the state. But we see a situation here where the state did not punish them. Should an employer be able to fire someone they know committed sexual assault but wasn't handled by the state? Should League be able to fire Faraci?

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Old 09-17-2017, 12:34 PM   #684
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Not being on the level of murder doesn't mean it isn't up there. What exactly is worse then sexual assault? Murder, torture (which sexual assault is also) and what? Serious question. Because think of everything sexual assault entails, including child molestation and rape.

lodovica I want to be clear. You don't think people should be allowed to voice their opinion on someone hiring a sexual offender? I am asking because you said they should be punished by the state. But we see a situation here where the state did not punish them. Should an employer be able to fire someone they know committed sexual assault but wasn't handled by the state? Should League be able to fire Faraci?
But when talking about Faraci's actions, as I already said, we are really far from child molestation and rape. That's not downplaying, but as crude as that may sound, if given the absurd hypothetical choice, I bet anyone would opt without hesitation whatsoever to be subjected to what Faraci did instead of rape or murder...
That's as bonkers as your equivalencies continue to be, you want to talk about rapists, while that's not what's at hand.
Comparing that to rape is involuntarily reductive of the worst consequences of rape and sexual violence: I understand that's totally not your intent.
And before you misread, I'm not negating that what Faraci did has hurt people, I myself already said so.
On the subject of rapists I assure you everybody would almost completely agree with you.

Exactly the fact Faraci was not punished and therefore people felt their duty to compensate is what I found wrong in the first place.
Never did I say people shouldn't be able to express anything, how you come to some of your deductions I really do not phatom.
People can say and demand what they want, but they may also very well be wrong or misguided.
In this case I think Faraci shouldn't even have been fired in the first place, I understand in America it's expected and now the norm but I disagree with that.
It's a systemic issue: who decides what is and where is the tipping point in offences and crimes for which people should be fired, even if there is only an accusation without proofs? Not denying this particular case, I totally believe the women who accused him.
But I find this mindset dangerous: forfeiting today the rights of someone probably guilty, means forfeiting those rights for everyone in the long term.
You may not believe it, it may sound like exaggeration, but I am sure that's the slippery slope where this line of thinking has brought us nowadays.

In any case, should an employer know for certain of a sexual abuse or any other heinous crime, pressing charges is the way to go.
The deferment to private action you champion also opens the door to a culture where there are easier ways out for companies who do not want to be embroiled in scandals and legal proceedings, where they wash their hands of sometimes really ugly criminal behaviors and shush everything with just a firing.
It's already common place, sadly. Look at Fox News as an example.
Again, I know that's not what you mean but there will always be someone who turns good intentions on their head.

Finally, our quarrel stemmed from the fact I condemned your position of damning someone for life, seems to me you at least came around to understanding my point of view as rational and stopped to unreasonably reducing it to apologism of rape. Prolly not too soon.

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Old 09-17-2017, 01:14 PM   #685
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

ludovica,

One of the issues within the USA, which may not be obvious to outsiders, is that the use of shaming and exiling is occurring in part due to the poor effectiveness of the justice system.

Sex assault and rape are hard crimes to prosecute in part because they are he said / she said situations and thus not naturally fit to a system that emphasizes "innocent until proven guilty". Though that doesn't apply to this general situation (Faraci pretty much confessed) it does apply in general, and thus the conviction rate is very low. Further to this, there are many instances of police either not believing victims, or not doing their jobs and not investigating properly. Many feminists have (convincingly) argued that the justice system provides little benefits to victims, and serves only to re-victimize them.

Given this context, there is consequently an inevitable rage/despair, as victims have no recourse. Most who rape, do so with impunity. They get away with it and continue to living good or great lives. Victims, meanwhile, are often told that it was their fault, or that they were lying and it didn't happen. This whole tragic sociology in turn contributes to feeding the lynch mobs you see on Twitter, it's a separate and complementary fuel to that of virtue signalers wanting to prove their worth. Those are two separate phenomena and the just righteousness of one says nothing about the metastasized evil of the other.

All of this is definitely understandable, regardless of whether or not it's right. I wish that the government would invest more resources into researching and prosecuting rape, as we speak many rape kits are left alone and not investigated. In the meantime though victims are forming communities and banding together which has its own momentum, as it's the only recourse they have in the absence of an effective justice system. Note that human beings have often taken justice into their own hands in the absence of an effective justice system, there's nothing new here.

So, given that backdrop, I think it's inevitable that the company would handle things. There's no prospect of Faraci going to jail unless he were to be a genuine celebrity and/or a minority. The trial, punishment, and rehabilitation were going to happen outside the criminal justice system. I don't think there's any way of getting around that.


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Old 09-17-2017, 01:58 PM   #686
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I'm aware of all that, sadly the difficulty of prosecuting rape charges is the same also in all of Europe really, maybe we have a little bit more balanced public discourse on the justice vs rights issue but also less awareness of what rape culture is and how much that's a reality, in that America seems leading the way on how to tackle the institutionalization of it.
But I'm still strongly of the idea that two wrongs don't make a right, not even in these cases at hand, not until we are under the rule of law: I'm not an idealist nor a legalist, but unless we are willing to renounce our legal rights, and in our legal systems we can not even if we wanted to, we shall not tread on other's, not even partially.
I repeat myself, there are great dangers in making exceptions.
Who decides the boundaries?
I understand being willing to take action but there are other ways to go about it. To have thriving discussion, activism, help networks we do not need retributive vengeance.

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Old 09-17-2017, 02:39 PM   #687
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

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Originally Posted by DarthSkywalker View Post
Not being on the level of murder doesn't mean it isn't up there. What exactly is worse then sexual assault? Murder, torture (which sexual assault is also) and what? Serious question. Because think of everything sexual assault entails, including child molestation and rape.
Maybe putting "groping" and "child molestation" under one banner isn't the right choice for this discussion. Yes, technically they can both be filed under sexual assault, but they're miles apart. It may sound crude but what Faraci did ranks near the bottom of the sexual assault list, which is why this discussion is even happening. His actions were ******, but not so monstrous that he should be treated like a monster for the rest of his life.

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Old 09-17-2017, 02:49 PM   #688
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

I also dont understand why Whedon is brought up. Whedon cheated on his wife. No sexual assault. It takes two to cheat. Bald Whedon used his status to most likely have better chances with 9s and 10s, but that hardly merits being put in the same light as Faraci.

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Old 09-17-2017, 03:02 PM   #689
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Yeah, let's not put Whedon into that bracket. He was a bad husband, but he didn't assault folks. That's a very uncomfortable topic because it can derail conversations, or it could be sorta..dangerous.

My dad cheated on my mom; but I'm not gonna make him out to be Roman Polanski.

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Old 09-17-2017, 03:47 PM   #690
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Default Re: Devin faraci accused of sexual assult

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Not being on the level of murder doesn't mean it isn't up there.
Uh, what?

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