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Old 03-12-2014, 10:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

Oh I know, and I like the fact that you actually do have strong arguments, it's just I myself don't think the distinction between newspaper reporter and TV reporter is vast enough to wreck the perception of the character as a Lois Lane derivative. They're vastly different occupations in real life, but in fiction land, not so much.

And considering how I'm one of the guys figuring they'll modify Barry's costume as the series goes to reflect more traditional coloration and build, I figure they'll do the same with Barry and Iris's civilian lives. In which case, I think giving Iris a personal connection to Barry while he's still a lowly CSI and she's not yet a star reporter is a good idea. It also works better than trying to find a Rachel Dawes style occupation for her, since I think that didn't help Laurel on Arrow as much as it should have. The LI needs a reason to be near the main character, and if not occupational, then personal, and since the latter is rarer than you'd think, I applaud this decision.

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Old 03-12-2014, 11:02 PM   #27
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If you read the comics you know Iris West is no Lois Lane and vice versa. They don't look alike, they have different personalities, they don't even have the same job... I'm tired of people unfamiliar with the comics saying she's just a Lois Lane ripoff because they both work in the news industry.

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Old 03-13-2014, 03:28 AM   #28
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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No, I don't think change is necessarily bad, not a fan of false advertising though. That's all cool if you want a female lead to be Barry's foster sister, black, and a psychologist, but don't call her Iris West when she's not. This is like making a "Mickey Mouse" movie and having him be Jerry from Tom and Jerry. They may call her Iris West, but she's not.




Foster sibling, whatever. He lives with her family as a kid for much of his life after his mom is murdered, Iris sees him as a brother, it's even in the dialog.... whatever if that's what they want to do but it's not Iris West.

I think the Iris West thing is to hammer in that this brand new character is supposed to be "the one" that Barry ends up with. I honestly don't mind the changes to Iris' character though.

Honestly, I wish most superhero stories would be more flexible with love interests especially those that have been adapted or retconned into being bachelors again. Tina McGee in the 1990 Flash series was a nice alternative to Iris. I even liked Patty Spivot in the New 52 as a love interest for Barry much more than I liked Iris. While I'm on the topic of love interests, the Superman/Wonder-Woman relationship has actually led to some really good stories.

Please don't call me a non-true Flash fan for saying those things. I feel that running 26.2 miles on a hot day in a Flash costume earned me that right.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:43 AM   #29
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If you read the comics you know Iris West is no Lois Lane and vice versa. They don't look alike, they have different personalities, they don't even have the same job... I'm tired of people unfamiliar with the comics saying she's just a Lois Lane ripoff because they both work in the news industry.
I am familiar with the comics. I'm just arguing that giving the character different tropes to keep outsiders from jumping to conclusions is a good idea. And since Lois can receive a major overhaul in the comics proper, I don't see anything wrong with doing the same to Iris in a TV show. Iris isn't an independent superhero (except for an arguable time in the New 52) while someone like Black Canary is, and if you'll notice, neither Laurel nor Sara has the traditional backstory associated with the character. I'm not confident this interpretation will work, but if the write the character with a better understanding of what will make the character appeal, then she's Iris West to me.

Plus, I'm hoping they can have some fun having her assume her role as a TV reporter and playing up her relationship to the Flash. The entire relationship in the comics was extremely unique, what with the long term commitment, marriage, and both being sweethearts. I would love to see the CW keep subverting expectations and have the two move ahead at a quick pace in their relationship. None of that New 52 "Must stop serious relationship from developing! All our readers are 30 year old bachelors in their mother's basement!" mentality.

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Old 03-13-2014, 01:57 PM   #30
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I think the Iris West thing is to hammer in that this brand new character is supposed to be "the one" that Barry ends up with. I honestly don't mind the changes to Iris' character though.


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Old 03-13-2014, 02:02 PM   #31
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I am familiar with the comics. I'm just arguing that giving the character different tropes to keep outsiders from jumping to conclusions is a good idea. And since Lois can receive a major overhaul in the comics proper, I don't see anything wrong with doing the same to Iris in a TV show. Iris isn't an independent superhero (except for an arguable time in the New 52) while someone like Black Canary is, and if you'll notice, neither Laurel nor Sara has the traditional backstory associated with the character. I'm not confident this interpretation will work, but if the write the character with a better understanding of what will make the character appeal, then she's Iris West to me.

Plus, I'm hoping they can have some fun having her assume her role as a TV reporter and playing up her relationship to the Flash. The entire relationship in the comics was extremely unique, what with the long term commitment, marriage, and both being sweethearts. I would love to see the CW keep subverting expectations and have the two move ahead at a quick pace in their relationship. None of that New 52 "Must stop serious relationship from developing! All our readers are 30 year old bachelors in their mother's basement!" mentality.
I agree on all that New 52 stuff.

I'm just saying if she doesn't look like Iris West, doesn't act like Iris West (treats and sees Barry as a...brother? ), doesn't have Iris West's background, doesn't even do what she did for a living, don't call her Iris West then because she's not.

Only similarities are that she's the love interest for Barry and has Iris West's name. Which I guess is a positive in a way, but whatever.

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Old 03-13-2014, 04:04 PM   #32
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That's all cool if you want a female lead to be Barry's foster sister, black, and a psychologist, but don't call her Iris West when she's not.
Iris West is a fictional character. She is whatever the current writers say she is. If you have your own personal Iris West, cool, if you don't like the new Iris because she's different, cool, but don't force your Iris West on everyone else. Here's what I do every time you try to force your Iris down my throat:

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Foster sibling, whatever. He lives with her family as a kid for much of his life after his mom is murdered, Iris sees him as a brother, it's even in the dialog.... whatever if that's what they want to do but it's not Iris West.
Sure it is.

Now, the great part about that line/story, is that they took the whole "I see you as a brother" thing friendzoned guys get and they turned it up to 11. That's why I'm excited about these changes to the character, because they invite good storytelling, as opposed to just worship of the source material's "perfection."

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Honestly, I'd say if she's an engaging character and a strong love interest with good chemistry with Gustin's Barry (in other words, avoiding all the pitfalls that have soured Arrow fans to Laurel Lance), then I'd say she's both A) Iris West, and B) a nice change up on the direction and details of the character. The reporter/love interest is unfortunately viewed as heavily derivative, if not just an outright knock-off, of Lois Lane's character. If this was a direct translation from the majority of Iris's previous incarnations, I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't see this character as anything particularly engaging. That's leaving a lot on the shoulders of the actress to pull off, and Unsullied audience viewers would already have everything about her character arc determined in their minds.

All these changes are thus far just background characteristics. If/When Iris picks up a job as a reporter, and if she has a nephew named Wally, then she'll have fulfilled her main canonical "duties," which are sadly kind of lacking for uniqueness when describing her. But make her Barry's childhood crush, confidant, and break a few taboos that Hollywood still sadly seems to follow when constructing their primary relationships, and you've got someone I'm genuinely curious to see.

If she's written well and Patton rocks it, she's Iris West. It's the law of supporting characters; if anyone's going to feel the change a transition brings, they will. If Lois Lane can become a red-headed army brat who knows Clark Kent is Superman (and I'm still hoping the army brat part gets thrown into Batman vs Superman), than Iris can change her skin color and her backstory.


Honestly... if the people who who own the copyright on Iris West say she's Iris West, then she's Iris West. All this "source material" stuff is applied so inconsistently that can't be the actual motivation.

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If you read the comics you know Iris West is no Lois Lane and vice versa. They don't look alike, they have different personalities, they don't even have the same job... I'm tired of people unfamiliar with the comics saying she's just a Lois Lane ripoff because they both work in the news industry.
And I'm tired of people familiar with comics saying Iris isn't Iris because she doesn't work in the news industry. It's tough times out here. But you're in luck, if you'd like to talk about the New Earth/Prime Earth Iris West, here's the Flash thread in the comcis forums.

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Old 03-13-2014, 04:10 PM   #33
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Yeah, but I feel they might just have her become a reporter in the series, and again the Lois Lane parallel in the post-crisis universe is a major thing here; the post-Crisis Lois was a radical update and twist on the character with a wholly new background and a new approach to her relationship to Superman, what with falling for Clark first and everything. It just seems to me that you've had a (completely justifiable) knee-jerk reaction to a relatively benign (so far) character reinterpretation.

I mean, I can see exactly where you're coming from. Arrow has beautifully illustrated how a misfire in a characters's initial interpretation can ruin their chances of fulfilling their role in the story. Laurel Lance is a sore thumb sticking out in an otherwise competently constructed supporting cast for the show, with her only tie to her supposed future as the Black Canary being her little used first name; even the attempt to make her the primary love interest failed thanks to a lack of chemistry, basically making her the poster child for your poster child argument. Incidentally,the chemistry between Iris and Barry is the most important sticking point in my opinion; we have to believe that these two can have a strong and unbreakable love if they come together.

But again, I've got a bit more optimism about this team pulling off this new interpretation; while Cassidy's Laurel is floundering, Moira Queen's expansion is immensely entertaining, as are Thea (Original character, but based off pre existing ones in their relationship to Ollie), Roy (Same name, but a new backstory and power set), and Slade Wilson is regarded by many as the best character in the show even before he got the Mirakuru injection, and even then his resemblance to his comic counterpart rests largely on his eye patch and a tiny pit of gray-dyed hair.

My hope? Iris (the female object of Barry's affections with a personal tie that enables them to interact on a regular basis) from the show grows into Iris (the female object of Barry's affections and his eventual wife, with a job that enables them to interact on a regular basis) from the comics.

My fear? Your scenario, where the character proves to be a miscast with an adrift storyline that doesn't interest the audience, with the character being turned into a relic of the series' pitch.

But I still think it's way to soon to see the character as "false advertising." Iris West lacks any iconic look, a trait shared by numerous supporting characters in comics, so I think any thing about the actress's race is jumping the gun (for completely non-racism related reasons.) the entire series is starting with Barry donning the suit for the first time, and it will presumably follow Arrow's decision to be a origins story for the world as well as the hero, so her career doesn't matter until it becomes obvious they aren't making her a reporter. And her background? If the main character gets a few changes and shifts in their background, I have no problem with the same thing happening on steroids to the supporting cast (again, army brat Lois Lane, or for another example, Carrol Ferris moving into pilot as well as administrator at Ferris Air).

May I ask what your worst case scenario is with the character as per right now? The best case scenario?

Just curious, and it'll provide better context for what warning your trying to give us.

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Old 03-13-2014, 04:20 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

My thoughts on that:

I think if you're expecting them to tell a story where a reporter hangs out on the street a lot to interact with a superhero, I think you're waiting for a story told in the 1960s, not in the 2010s. That's just not what reporters do, that's not what they are.

I think the psychology angle is a carryover from the Silence of the Lambs meets the Matrix Flash movie pitch, which was also by Berlanti and co. In such a scenario, where the criminal mind is relevant (which makes abundant sense for Flash's rogues gallery), you need someone who will be that profiler. Why not use the girl who has a job that doesn't make sense/isn't actually important or influential in the modern world?

I think what's really great about this take on Iris is that they've made her a person who does exactly what she does in the comics, without having to make her already married to Barry or pretend the world still has the 1970s News Industry. That, to me, is the genius of the changes to the character. As a psychologist, what she has to say and what she thinks about the villains, and Barry, will always be relevant and important. Having grown up with Barry, she will always be there for him no matter what. That's smart writing, right there.

What's even better is that now instead of saying 'Captain Cold did this or that...' she'll actually be able to talk about why. When she's inevitably captured, she'll be analyzing them. Heck, she may even get a Lecter-like fan (she most assuredly will). Barry and Iris' conversations about the villains could be some of the most interesting stuff on the show, depending on how they handle it. And if they really just can't figure out how to make a psychologist interesting, they can always just make her a reporter and have her fifty meters from the action (or worse, in a studio) saying things that everyone already knows. At least the source material worshipers will be happy.

What's even better is that you can still have Iris play her role in the Flash franchise as Barry's constant supporter while Barry ahs romantic entanglements with everyone from Felicity to Killer Frost to Kathy Spivot to you name it. It has sooo much potential.

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Old 03-13-2014, 05:06 PM   #35
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Iris West is a fictional character. She is whatever the current writers say she is. If you have your own personal Iris West, cool, if you don't like the new Iris because she's different, cool, but don't force your Iris West on everyone else. Here's what I do every time you try to force your Iris down my throat:
The comic book Iris West (which is where the idea to do a live action Flash comes from, a COMIC BOOK), is white, a tv reporter, and has dated Barry since college.

Quote:
Sure it is.
Sure it's not. Very sure.

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Now, the great part about that line/story, is that they took the whole "I see you as a brother" thing friendzoned guys get and they turned it up to 11. That's why I'm excited about these changes to the character, because they invite good storytelling, as opposed to just worship of the source material's "perfection."
If you know anything about dating in real life it doesn't work that way and trying to make Barry into Ross from friends is the most unbelievably cliche thing I've yet to hear about on a CW show. Much inferior to the mature relationship the two had in the comics (and also a lot closer to reality).


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Honestly... if the people who who own the copyright on Iris West say she's Iris West, then she's Iris West. All this "source material" stuff is applied so inconsistently that can't be the actual motivation.
Oh right. Big business is always known to put artistic integrity first and foremost anyway.


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And I'm tired of people familiar with comics saying Iris isn't Iris because she doesn't work in the news industry. It's tough times out here. But you're in luck, if you'd like to talk about the New Earth/Prime Earth Iris West, here's the Flash thread in the comcis forums.
Oh yeah...comic book Iris West....where all things Iris West originated from. Gee. Maybe the people working on the show should visit that thread as well...since Iris West isn't Barry's foster sibling, doesn't see Barry as a brother, isn't a psychologist, and isn't black. I don't know who that is but it's cool she has the same name as Iris West.

Seriously why not just make up a new character? 90% of the work's already been done. If they're so hell bent on having a character like that, that they must make up nearly everything from scratch to begin with, why not save everyone's time and just make a new character?

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Old 03-13-2014, 05:13 PM   #36
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My thoughts on that:

I think if you're expecting them to tell a story where a reporter hangs out on the street a lot to interact with a superhero, I think you're waiting for a story told in the 1960s, not in the 2010s. That's just not what reporters do, that's not what they are.
Except reporters in the 60s didn't do that either.

Quote:
I think the psychology angle is a carryover from the Silence of the Lambs meets the Matrix Flash movie pitch, which was also by Berlanti and co. In such a scenario, where the criminal mind is relevant (which makes abundant sense for Flash's rogues gallery), you need someone who will be that profiler. Why not use the girl who has a job that doesn't make sense/isn't actually important or influential in the modern world?

I think what's really great about this take on Iris is that they've made her a person who does exactly what she does in the comics, without having to make her already married to Barry or pretend the world still has the 1970s News Industry. That, to me, is the genius of the changes to the character. As a psychologist, what she has to say and what she thinks about the villains, and Barry, will always be relevant and important. Having grown up with Barry, she will always be there for him no matter what. That's smart writing, right there.

What's even better is that now instead of saying 'Captain Cold did this or that...' she'll actually be able to talk about why. When she's inevitably captured, she'll be analyzing them. Heck, she may even get a Lecter-like fan (she most assuredly will). Barry and Iris' conversations about the villains could be some of the most interesting stuff on the show, depending on how they handle it. And if they really just can't figure out how to make a psychologist interesting, they can always just make her a reporter and have her fifty meters from the action (or worse, in a studio) saying things that everyone already knows. At least the source material worshipers will be happy.

What's even better is that you can still have Iris play her role in the Flash franchise as Barry's constant supporter while Barry ahs romantic entanglements with everyone from Felicity to Killer Frost to Kathy Spivot to you name it. It has sooo much potential.

You're projecting so much onto a few snippets of character description they gave for her for the show, you're acting like you've seen every episode of the show and can point to that as a basis for how "successful" it is, just to go against nearly 60 years of her characterization in the comics and the people who want to see that, for whatever reason. You don't know if it will be better or more "successful" than the comic books. All I'm saying is based on what they've given us it isn't Iris West at all and they should call her something else.


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Old 03-13-2014, 06:42 PM   #37
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All I'm saying is based on what they've given us it isn't Iris West at all and they should call her something else.


This is Iris West. She is not the Iris West of Prime Earth, but she is Iris West nonetheless. There's a hundred things about her and like, three things different about her from the comics. None of the millions of people who will watch the Flash, or the hundreds of thousands who have loved the Flash over the last sixty years need to care how important you think those three things are. No amount of repeating those things will make them any more than three things about her. None of your judgmental accusations about what they were thinking or assertions about what is easy in doing television adaptations will hold any weight with anyone who doesn't already agree with you. And as I've pointed out, she has potential to be even better than previous incarnations, which is why when I pointed out how, your rebuttal was that I can't see the future, not that it wasn't possible, or that it would suck. Which makes sense because it's probably going to be awesome:



She loves Barry as much as you do, Kev, you should get along fine.

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Old 03-13-2014, 07:01 PM   #38
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If this show gets picked up and this character actually turns out to be likable, this Iris will be the "one and true" Iris to the non-comic book reading audience regardless of her race and eventual professoin.

Kinda like how the DCAU Mr. Freeze eventually became the "one and true" Mr. Freeze. Or how some people got confused when they saw a white person playing Green Lantern in the first movie trailer.

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Old 03-13-2014, 09:26 PM   #39
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If this show gets picked up and this character actually turns out to be likable, this Iris will be the "one and true" Iris to the non-comic book reading audience regardless of her race and eventual professoin.

Kinda like how the DCAU Mr. Freeze eventually became the "one and true" Mr. Freeze. Or how some people got confused when they saw a white person playing Green Lantern in the first movie trailer.
Comic book Mr Freeze or Mr Zero was never that great - he didn't have much depth or backstory to him.

Iris West is a different story. She's not some "secondtier" Batman villain or character. In other words, she's pretty awesome as she is. Occasionally you get something from other media that exceeds the source material and when you get that better thing you incorporate it into the comics. It just makes sense. Go with the best take. This ain't one of them times.

Hopefully this distortion won't stick as much as you hope it will so we'll still have a chance if getting the real version someday.


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Old 03-13-2014, 09:51 PM   #40
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This ain't one of them times.
Prove it.

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Old 03-13-2014, 09:53 PM   #41
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This is Iris West. She is not the Iris West of Prime Earth, but she is Iris West nonetheless. There's a hundred things about her and like, three things different about her from the comics.
The three (at least three) biggest, simplest, most OBVIOUS things about her (i.e. 80, 85% of the character) - the only similarities this Iris will have to the comic book counterpart is that Iris is her name and Barry Allen is in love with her.

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None of the millions of people who will watch the Flash, or the hundreds of thousands who have loved the Flash over the last sixty years need to care how important you think those three things are.
Most the people who have read and loved The Flash over the past 60 years (which probably excludes you) don't want to see black psychologist sees-Barry-as-just-a-brother-cliche foster sister, either. I mean if given the choice between this distortion or adapting the actual Iris West from the comics, which do you think any fan of The Flash and his comics are going to choose?

Let me know if you need a hint...

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No amount of repeating those things will make them any more than three things about her.
No amount of downplaying how unlike Iris West the CW Iris is will make her more Iris West or make her relationship with Barry like that of the comics (or superior to it).

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None of your judgmental accusations about what they were thinking or assertions about what is easy in doing television adaptations will hold any weight with anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
Lol wut?

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And as I've pointed out, she has potential to be even better than previous incarnations, which is why when I pointed out how, your rebuttal was that I can't see the future, not that it wasn't possible, or that it would suck.
I maintain that it won't be superior to the Iris of the comics but may be interesting and entertaining in its own way - it's just not actual Iris West but a new character that happens to have her name. They should just call it what it is and give her a new name to go with the rest of her and complete the creation.

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Which makes sense because it's probably going to be awesome:



She loves Barry as much as you do, Kev, you should get along fine.
Lol.

Well not this version, she only sees him as a brother, remember?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


You're one of those posters who has a justification for every change from the source material, all the time, no matter what, no matter how little we know, no matter how little or big the change, Dr Cosmic is always right there to play devil's advocate and say not only how it will work but how it will be BETTER than the source material. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen, even one time, where you have defended something from the source material being as is and not promoted the changes regardless of what they were. Do you have any investment in the characters at all? In any character from the source material, not just Flash related? I have a hard time imagining you do.

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Old 03-13-2014, 09:59 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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You're one of those posters who has a justification for every change from the source material, all the time, no matter what, no matter how little we know, no matter how little or big the change, Dr Cosmic is always right there to play devil's advocate and say not only how it will work but how it will be BETTER than the source material. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen, even one time, where you have defended something from the source material being as is and not promoted the changes regardless of what they were. Do you have any investment in the characters at all? In any character from the source material, not just Flash related? I have a hard time imagining you do.
Not trying to pick you KS, but some people are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They can't handle any change and complain about all of them.

And it should be noted that these changes occur independent of the desires of both of these types of posters. The changes have occurred and will occur inevitably. Don't you think it's kind of maladaptive for some posters to refuse to accept these changes when they happen regardless of indignation? I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:00 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Prove it.
The characterization of Iris in the comics is superior to the cliche only-loves-Barry-as-a-brother-but-will-soon-realize-she's-in-love-with-him a la Ross on Friends, ultra chic psychologist bit that's oh-so-popular and kewl in TV and movies, Barry being her foster sibling, and the ultra PC race change just 'cuz. CW Iris West's characterization is the epitome of sellout.

You're welcome.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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The characterization of Iris in the comics is superior to the cliche only-loves-Barry-as-a-brother-but-will-soon-realize-she's-in-love-with-him a la Ross on Friends, ultra chic psychologist bit that's oh-so-popular and kewl in TV and movies, Barry being her foster sibling, and the ultra PC race change just 'cuz. CW Iris West's characterization is the epitome of sellout.

You're welcome.

Paraphrasing from the great Grant Morrison, Batman was created in reaction to Superman, when publishers demanded a superhero type character. Bill Finger and Bob Kane then went on to synthesize a character that drew upon popular dark avenger type characters from the past, pulp and noir fads, and embodied multiple male fantasies (millionaire, mysterious past, strong physique).

In other words, Batman's original chracterization is the epitome of sellout and we all know how that turned out.


One can also argue that the original characterization of Iris being a Lois clone (reporter, hates and is condescending towards civilian identity but loves superhero identity) is also kind of a sellout.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:11 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Not trying to pick you KS, but some people are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They can't handle any change and complain about all of them.
Absolutely, but as I've demonstrated many times before, I'm not one of them. If something is superior to the source material or just as good I'm all for it. I probably seem like that guy to a lot of you but that's just because so many stupid changes are going on with the adaptations these days and I'm always going "against the grain" with it on the boards here. I liked the 89 Batman movie suit and vehicles. I liked the DCAU Mr Freeze. I even liked the organic web shooters. This Iris West stuff is bullcrap plain and simple and NOT a better idea than what is in the comics. Iris West should be left as she is.

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And it should be noted that these changes occur independent of the desires of both of these types of posters. The changes have occurred and will occur inevitably. Don't you think it's kind of maladaptive for some posters to refuse to accept these changes when they happen regardless of indignation? I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.
Yes, it's true, the changes occur no matter what and most of the time we have no control over it. But that doesn't mean we have to like or accept them and go along with them and I think when it's not as good as what already is, people should absolutely ***** about it and "protest" and say how they feel. This is how positive changes are made in the future - reception. That's what standing up for something that means something to you is all about - sometimes you don't accept the changes and you have to raise hell about them. If it means something to you and the changes are bad, that's what you do. Otherwise you betray yourself and those characters.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:16 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Paraphrasing from the great Grant Morrison, Batman was created in reaction to Superman, when publishers demanded a superhero type character. Bill Finger and Bob Kane then went on to synthesize a character that drew upon popular dark avenger type characters from the past, pulp and noir fads, and embodied multiple male fantasies (millionaire, mysterious past, strong physique).

In other words, Batman's original chracterization is the epitome of sellout and we all know how that turned out.
Oh please. All superheroes were created as a response to Superman and Batman was the absolute opposite of sellout as he was the absolute opposite of Superman in almost every way except that they were both good guys. Give me a break. It'd be more appropriate for you to say that about Captain Marvel or someone who even remotely resembled Superman, but Batman? That's so ****in absurd.


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One can also argue that the original characterization of Iris being a Lois clone (reporter, hates and is condescending towards civilian identity but loves superhero identity) is also kind of a sellout.
Iris was a TV reporter, Lois was not, and Iris had a lot of development since her first appearance that made her very different from Lois Lane over the course of her nearly 60 year publication.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:20 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Absolutely, but as I've demonstrated many times before, I'm not one of them. If something is superior to the source material or just as good I'm all for it. I probably seem like that guy to a lot of you but that's just because so many stupid changes are going on with the adaptations these days and I'm always going "against the grain" with it on the boards here. I liked the 89 Batman movie suit and vehicles. I liked the DCAU Mr Freeze. I even liked the organic web shooters. This Iris West stuff is bullcrap plain and simple and NOT a better idea than what is in the comics. Iris West should be left as she is.



Yes, it's true, the changes occur no matter what and most of the time we have no control over it. But that doesn't mean we have to like or accept them and go along with them and I think when it's not as good as what already is, people should absolutely ***** about it and "protest" and say how they feel. This is how positive changes are made in the future - reception. That's what standing up for something that means something to you is all about - sometimes you don't accept the changes and you have to raise hell about them. If it means something to you and the changes are bad, that's what you do. Otherwise you betray yourself and those characters.
Well, the first part makes sense considering it's all individual opinion.

I'm wondering though, how much this reception really affects things before the movie/show is even released. I would agree that "voting with your dollar" after the movie/show is released and choosing not to see it (or see it more than once) might make a difference, but I don't see how complaining about something before the fact has any impact.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Oh please. All superheroes were created as a response to Superman and Batman was the absolute opposite of sellout as he was the absolute opposite of Superman in almost every way except that they were both good guys. Give me a break. It'd be more appropriate for you to say that about Captain Marvel or someone who even remotely resembled Superman, but gimme a break. That's so ****in ridiculous.




Iris was a TV reporter, Lois was not, and Iris had a lot of development since her first appearance that made her very different from Lois Lane over the course of her nearly 60 year publication.

Batman is the opposite of Superman, therefore he's not a sellout? I expected a better argument. The actual history was that publishers wanted Bill Finger and Bob Kane to create a Superman-type character (yes I get that it was a fad). But rather than just copying Superman, they created a character that was meant to be as commercially popular as possible. I'm just repeating an idea that Grant Morrison proposed in his book Supergods (which I really recommend).

Iris has had a lot of development, but I am still of the camp that she's a Lois clone and her development is somewhat spotty. I don't "hate" the character or anything but she has had her moments a as a *****y girlfriend who always complained about Barry and compared him to other men.

Also, the fact that she deduced his identity by hearing him talk in his sleep kinda lowers her a bit. Why not just solve it and deduce herself in a more straightforward manner than "I heard you talk in your sleep."

There are also things like Iris being from the 30th Century and her being needlessly Machiavellian during the Wally West era, but that's a whole other bag of issues.

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Dr. Walter Bishop: Oh - That's too bad. You'll have to shock her heart then.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Well, the first part makes sense considering it's all individual opinion.

I'm wondering though, how much this reception really affects things before the movie/show is even released. I would agree that "voting with your dollar" after the movie/show is released and choosing not to see it (or see it more than once) might make a difference, but I don't see how complaining about something before the fact has any impact.
Worked for Shailene Woodley.

I think as soon as people realize it's bad they should speak up about it. I am a fan of waiting to see the finalized product before giving your ultimate criticism but there are some things you just don't always have to wait and see produced to know how bad it would be, things like that it's totally okay with to say how much you dislike it ASAP, IMO. Sooner the better.

And hey, never know - sometimes, even rarely, you just might "save" it before it's complete. Very rare and unlikely but not impossible.

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Batman is the opposite of Superman, therefore he's not a sellout? I expected a better argument.

Dude are you serious right now? They were very creative with what they did, what would have been a "sure bet" would have been to give him superpowers similar to Superman's (like the publishers wanted) because that just became HUGE with Superman, powers like Superman's were popular and in, instead they made him...well...the opposite, and broadened the genre. If you think that's selling out maybe you're unfamiliar with the term or the characters...?


Quote:
The actual history was that publishers wanted Bill Finger and Bob Kane to create a Superman-type character (yes I get that it was a fad). But rather than just copying Superman, they created a character that was meant to be as commercially popular as possible. I'm just repeating an idea that Grant Morrison proposed in his book Supergods (which I really recommend).

Iris has had a lot of development, but I am still of the camp that she's a Lois clone and her development is somewhat spotty. I don't "hate" the character or anything but she has had her moments a as a *****y girlfriend who always complained about Barry and compared him to other men.
Welcome to DC Comics in the early silver age. Over the next ten years and since then they came a long way.

Quote:
Also, the fact that she deduced his identity by hearing him talk in his sleep kinda lowers her a bit.
I think it's unique and somewhat humorous. Anyone else would'be done some big dramatic reveal but the fact that she learned Barry was The Flash by basically hearing him admit as much right next to her as she slept is great. She didn't "deduce" it, she wasn't expecting to find out "who The Flash was" like she was on some sort of crusade.

Quote:
Why not just solve it and deduce herself in a more straightforward manner than "I heard you talk in your sleep."

There are also things like Iris being from the 30th Century and her being needlessly Machiavellian during the Wally West era, but that's a whole other bag of issues.
I was never a fan of the 30th century mumbo jumbo bit, it never made sense and that's a perfect example of one if the sucky things about her that could use improvement and should not make it to live action. (It's not even in every version of Iris in the comics to begin with anyway)

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