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Old 03-13-2014, 10:49 PM   #51
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

I think that's the issue though; we haven't seen any of this Iris yet. There should be no reason to get this impassioned just yet. Unless of course, you were traumatized by that monstrosity known as Halle Berry's Catwoman...

Again, I see where you're thinking is coming from, but you're throwing an awful lot of negativity and pessimism at one of the most variable parts of the show thus far- an actress and her portrayal of a comic-derived portrayal in a serialized TV format- when we haven't even scene a second of actual footage from the show.

It comes off as a little rabid, and I mean that in a good way; you're passionate and you have logical arguments. But we're on this threads second page and 75% to 95% of this is made up of this argument, which is literally only formed with bare facts from a call sheet and a casting with some accepted dialogue. Now, me, I'm competitive, that's why I'm having trouble letting this go. So I solemnly swear I will not comment on this argument again on this thread until we've hopefully seen the pilot and the start of this series.

At which point, I shall return with a vengeance if I like the character to defend her as a true interpretation of Iris West, or if not, I'll start agreeing profusely with you. But it's ignoble to have this thread dominated by what sadly does resemble one poster versus two or three others in an argument over whether or not the crumbs of info we have on the TV shows character make it false advertising or not. I do request we drop this topic for now, but if everyone else disagrees, no problem, no of fence meant, but I'm out!

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:50 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Dude are you serious right now? They were very creative with what they did, what would have been a "sure bet" would have been to give him superpowers similar to Superman's (like the publishers wanted) because that just became HUGE with Superman, powers like Superman's were popular and in, instead they made him...well...the opposite, and broadened the genre. If you think that's selling out maybe you're unfamiliar with the term or the characters...?
Sigh, I shouldn't have mentioned Superman at all and jumped straight to the character facets they adapted for Batman.


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I think it's unique and somewhat humorous. Anyone else would'be done some big dramatic reveal but the fact that she learned Barry was The Flash by basically hearing him admit as much right next to her as she slept is great. She didn't "deduce" it, she wasn't expecting to find out "who The Flash was" like she was on some sort of crusade.
A reporter married someone whom she wasnt aware was having a secret life which also happened to be a public figure she's often covered

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Old 03-13-2014, 10:53 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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Worked for Shailene Woodley.

I think as soon as people realize it's bad they should speak up about it. I am a fan of waiting to see the finalized product before giving your ultimate criticism but there are some things you just don't always have to wait and see produced to know how bad it would be, things like that it's totally okay with to say how much you dislike it ASAP, IMO. Sooner the better.

And hey, never know - sometimes, even rarely, you just might "save" it before it's complete. Very rare and unlikely but not impossible.
Some of the comments about Woodley were unfortunate.

I still don't agree about the complaining before a finished product is shown because you never know how things will turn out, but I asked for your opinion and got. So, thanks for the answer.

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Old 03-13-2014, 11:02 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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The characterization of Iris in the comics is superior to the cliche only-loves-Barry-as-a-brother-but-will-soon-realize-she's-in-love-with-him a la Ross on Friends, ultra chic psychologist bit that's oh-so-popular and kewl in TV and movies, Barry being her foster sibling, and the ultra PC race change just 'cuz. CW Iris West's characterization is the epitome of sellout.

You're welcome.
That's not proof, that's opinion and speculation. I asked for proof.

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The three (at least three) biggest, simplest, most OBVIOUS things about her (i.e. 80, 85% of the character) - the only similarities this Iris will have to the comic book counterpart is that Iris is her name and Barry Allen is in love with her.

Most the people who have read and loved The Flash over the past 60 years (which probably excludes you) don't want to see black psychologist sees-Barry-as-just-a-brother-cliche foster sister, either. I mean if given the choice between this distortion or adapting the actual Iris West from the comics, which do you think any fan of The Flash and his comics are going to choose?

No amount of downplaying how unlike Iris West the CW Iris is will make her more Iris West or make her relationship with Barry like that of the comics (or superior to it).

I maintain that it won't be superior to the Iris of the comics but may be interesting and entertaining in its own way - it's just not actual Iris West but a new character that happens to have her name. They should just call it what it is and give her a new name to go with the rest of her and complete the creation.
This is all your opinion. Nearly everyone has told you that, and you ignore it. Apparently you feel like you are being a true fan and doing what's right by holding up comics as perfection and treating your opinion as though they are facts. That's a truly poor and ineffective way to communicate. But you're a true zealot, and I don't think simple things like logic and reason can get through to you, because i your mind, apparently, you're doing the right thing by being belligerent. (I hope you are at least as rude in all the letters and emails you're writing to the CW). So I will, for a moment, get truly personal with you. This is your last chance to come to reality with me.

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You're one of those posters who has a justification for every change from the source material, all the time, no matter what, no matter how little we know, no matter how little or big the change, Dr Cosmic is always right there to play devil's advocate and say not only how it will work but how it will be BETTER than the source material. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen, even one time, where you have defended something from the source material being as is and not promoted the changes regardless of what they were. Do you have any investment in the characters at all? In any character from the source material, not just Flash related? I have a hard time imagining you do.
So because you have no proof that this is anything other than how you, Kevin Smith feel, now you've created some fictional version of Dr.Cosmic that you can mentally punish. Meanwhile in reality:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrCosmic
2011

The Flash costume from the comics is one of the best, and easiest to translate to screen, in all existance. It's simple, bold and practical. To complicate it and darken it does nothing beneficial unless you're doing the thankfully dead in the water Silence of the Lambs version of Flash.

All the Flash costume needs for a transfer to live action is a nice rich texture and a storyline reason for the ostentatiousness of the costume, it could be a one-liner like Iron Man had for the red in his costume.
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Originally Posted by DrCosmic
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On Green Lantern, as you said: Look how that turned out.

There's nothing wrong with adding details, like in Spider-Man's costume, or when the costume doesn't make sense for the story, like Batman Begins, changing significant parts, but if the costume makes perfect sense, why mess up a good thing?

Hellboy, Iron Man. The films that stick to the comics costume do well critically and commercially, and the films that do well despite breaking from the comics costume have specific storyline reasons for changing the costumes, not just "well, a lot of other movies are changing the comics costumes, so why don't we? Y'know, for the heck of it."

The costume means something, it tells a story all by itself. Unless you're telling a different kind of story, or you want your movie to suck, don't change it.

Even on those other mediocre films, who added a whole new color scheme to their costumes? Not Captain America, not Thor, not Hulk, not Batman Begins. Superman Returns did. And X-Men did. And guess what? When X-Men pulled themselves out of the funk of X3, they went back to the comics colors because the costumes tell a good story.
I know exactly how you feel. EXACTLY. The difference is, I learned not to worship the source material, and I learned not to treat my opinion as fact, not to treat my imagination as reality, as you just tried to do. Perhaps in a few years you'll deepen and broaden your view of these characters as well.


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Old 03-14-2014, 01:24 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

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I think that's the issue though; we haven't seen any of this Iris yet. There should be no reason to get this impassioned just yet. Unless of course, you were traumatized by that monstrosity known as Halle Berry's Catwoman...

Again, I see where you're thinking is coming from, but you're throwing an awful lot of negativity and pessimism at one of the most variable parts of the show thus far- an actress and her portrayal of a comic-derived portrayal in a serialized TV format- when we haven't even scene a second of actual footage from the show.

It comes off as a little rabid, and I mean that in a good way; you're passionate and you have logical arguments. But we're on this threads second page and 75% to 95% of this is made up of this argument, which is literally only formed with bare facts from a call sheet and a casting with some accepted dialogue. Now, me, I'm competitive, that's why I'm having trouble letting this go. So I solemnly swear I will not comment on this argument again on this thread until we've hopefully seen the pilot and the start of this series.

At which point, I shall return with a vengeance if I like the character to defend her as a true interpretation of Iris West, or if not, I'll start agreeing profusely with you. But it's ignoble to have this thread dominated by what sadly does resemble one poster versus two or three others in an argument over whether or not the crumbs of info we have on the TV shows character make it false advertising or not. I do request we drop this topic for now, but if everyone else disagrees, no problem, no of fence meant, but I'm out!

(4 smileys used in hopefully clever ways. Ha! Personal best!)
I may end up liking the take/character, it just won't be Iris West. They may at some point bring in another character who more closely resembles Iris West, or, or, a third option, reboot/revamp her in some way, but whether I enjoy it or not doesn't make her Iris West because she isn't. Iris West in the comics already has a backgorund, a story, a job, is well defined, etc...whatever they're doing in the show is for something else that shares only the name.


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Old 03-14-2014, 01:53 AM   #56
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That's not proof, that's opinion and speculation. I asked for proof.
I repeated the character description for her on the show. There is your proof.

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This is all your opinion. Nearly everyone has told you that, and you ignore it.
Those things the "Iris West" is on the show are not the character Iris West. It is fact. Look at the source material, look at the CW.

Quote:
Apparently you feel like you are being a true fan and doing what's right by holding up comics as perfection and treating your opinion as though they are facts.
The comics are the source material and the what's in it are good ideas and they don't need to be polluted like this.

Isn't it also your opinion that what's being done with the fake Iris West on the show is superior to what her character actually is?

Quote:
That's a truly poor and ineffective way to communicate. But you're a true zealot,
Isn't that name calling for one's opinions?

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and I don't think simple things like logic and reason can get through to you,
Uh oh! Another! Smith's stupid for his opinion!

Quote:
because i your mind, apparently, you're doing the right thing by being belligerent. (I hope you are at least as rude in all the letters and emails you're writing to the CW).
If defending what's good in the comics is "belligerent", sign me up.

Quote:
So I will, for a moment, get truly personal with you. This is your last chance to come to reality with me.


I feel like we're really serious now.



Quote:
So because you have no proof that this is anything other than how you, Kevin Smith feel, now you've created some fictional version of Dr.Cosmic that you can mentally punish. Meanwhile in reality:
Up until a moment ago all I had was proof for how I felt, that your opinion was exactly what I had stated, until you provided otherwise below, an example of just ONE time where you defended things as they were in the comics instead of going around promoting and defending any and all changes all the time in media adaptations...

...that you had to go all the way back to 2011 to cite a time when you felt something in the comics should remain as is is truly telling though, thank you for that. Which stands to reason that my opinion and assessment was correct with everything I'd seen from you.

But you actually make a lot of sense with what you said in your 2011 quotes and are absolutely right about a lot of that. Are you sure you said that stuff? A lot of that actually makes sense to me....

Quote:
I know exactly how you feel. EXACTLY. The difference is, I learned not to worship the source material, and I learned not to treat my opinion as fact, not to treat my imagination as reality, as you just tried to do. Perhaps in a few years you'll deepen and broaden your view of these characters as well.
But you were right with the things you said, it's not any less true today than it was then, maybe you just lost faith along the way, the major changes to the already great costumes are pointless and stupid (outside of maybe a specific story reason), when the design is so great it's unnecessary or even "bad" as I'd call it. I don't know why you wouldn't maintain those views but perhaps one day when I get closer to your mental prowess I won't need to ask.

For your information though, I do have a very deep view of the characters, which is why I defend the things that I do, because many of the things I defend all connect and intersect which makes them important.



Quote:




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Old 03-14-2014, 01:54 AM   #57
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Some of the comments about Woodley were unfortunate.
Yeah, I agree. Sad. Felt kind of bad for her.

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I still don't agree about the complaining before a finished product is shown because you never know how things will turn out, but I asked for your opinion and got. So, thanks for the answer.
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:59 AM   #58
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Is Candice related to Paula?

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Old 03-14-2014, 02:00 AM   #59
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Sigh, I shouldn't have mentioned Superman at all and jumped straight to the character facets they adapted for Batman.
Unless there's a drawing somewhere of Batman as a guy in glasses who can fly and has super strength and invulnerability there's no way in hell I'm ever going to agree that Batman was a Superman "ripoff" or "sellout". And if Grant Morrison said that he may be truly off his rocker.


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A reporter married someone whom she wasnt aware was having a secret life which also happened to be a public figure she's often covered
And how it was revealed to her is quite humorous and unique. Barry's one of the last people you'd suspect being a superhero anyway. Slow and unreliable, the butt of jokes for more than a few.

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Old 03-14-2014, 03:02 AM   #60
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Kev,keep telling it like it is. People need to hear it,even if they don't have to agree with it.

You save me a lot of typing when I can just agree with you.

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Old 03-14-2014, 03:54 AM   #61
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Kev,keep telling it like it is. People need to hear it,even if they don't have to agree with it.

You save me a lot of typing when I can just agree with you.

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Old 03-14-2014, 08:37 AM   #62
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maybe you just lost faith along the way
Which is case in point, that for you, this is a faith issue, that's why you are an actual zealot in the religious sense, that's why logic and reason don't work, because faith defies simple things, it has nothing to do with your intelligence. The difference is I began to view fiction in the context of reality (art) not the other way around (religion). This is why to you, proof that it's different is proof that it's worse, because the comics are the ultimate expression to you, something you haven't proven, but hold to be true anyway.

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Kev,keep telling it like it is. People need to hear it,even if they don't have to agree with it.

You save me a lot of typing when I can just agree with you.
This is what religious people feel about their beliefs. You guys are about as aggressive as the Jehovah's Witnesses, and just as dismissive of anything outside of your faith.

So I'm going to go ahead and shut my door, and encourage others to do the same until you guys learn to converse and exchange ideas rather than try to evangelize.

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Old 03-14-2014, 09:34 AM   #63
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Which is case in point, that for you, this is a faith issue, that's why you are an actual zealot in the religious sense, that's why logic and reason don't work, because faith defies simple things, it has nothing to do with your intelligence. The difference is I began to view fiction in the context of reality (art) not the other way around (religion). This is why to you, proof that it's different is proof that it's worse, because the comics are the ultimate expression to you, something you haven't proven, but hold to be true anyway.
Did you ever hear the term figure of speech? Because that was what was meant by that...nothing more. It's funny, I knew as I was typing that that you were probably going to single out the usage of that term, thanks for not disappointing, lol...I was like "just seems like that type of person"...

Any chance to bash religion...

Quote:
This is what religious people feel about their beliefs. You guys are about as aggressive as the Jehovah's Witnesses, and just as dismissive of anything outside of your faith.

So I'm going to go ahead and shut my door, and encourage others to do the same until you guys learn to converse and exchange ideas rather than try to evangelize.
Lmao. Oh brother....yes, great and wise Dr Cosmic, tell the spear chuckers that worship fire to go away...

Consider us more like girl scouts who don't want anyone to miss out on delicious delicacies.

But you know....maybe one day when we're as smart as you and learn to go along with anything Hollywood wants to do with the characters, we'll understand...

Thanks for taking the time to show us your disdain for religion and religious people though.


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Old 03-14-2014, 10:12 AM   #64
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Is Candice related to Paula?
Nope

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Old 03-14-2014, 11:41 AM   #65
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Unless there's a drawing somewhere of Batman as a guy in glasses who can fly and has super strength and invulnerability there's no way in hell I'm ever going to agree that Batman was a Superman "ripoff" or "sellout". And if Grant Morrison said that he may be truly off his rocker.
Again, like I said forget that Superman was mentioned. Grant Morrison pointed out that a lot of the characteristics inherent to Batman feel like they were trying to make as commercially successful a character as possible: A dark avenger character similar to Zorro, the Scarlet pimpernel, etc., drew upon the popular noir/pulp atmosphere of the time, and had facets that scream wish fulfillment such as having money, a cool costume, and gadgets.

Grant Morrisons Superman comparison was only to contrast against Batman. Whereas Batman was constructed to be a commercial success, Superman came from a purer inspiration.

Now back to Iris. Let's agree to disagree that I'm eager to see what they have in store for us regardless of the changes while you feel like her sellout aspects are detrimental to the character.

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Old 03-14-2014, 01:30 PM   #66
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Again, like I said forget that Superman was mentioned. Grant Morrison pointed out that a lot of the characteristics inherent to Batman feel like they were trying to make as commercially successful a character as possible: A dark avenger character similar to Zorro, the Scarlet pimpernel, etc., drew upon the popular noir/pulp atmosphere of the time, and had facets that scream wish fulfillment such as having money, a cool costume, and gadgets.
Many of those things didn't appear in his first issue, they didn't even reveal the Batman was really Bruce Wayne until the very end, and all superheroes are "wish fulfillment".

Quote:
Grant Morrisons Superman comparison was only to contrast against Batman. Whereas Batman was constructed to be a commercial success, Superman came from a purer inspiration.
So you're saying because there was no immediate "demand" from businesses for a character like Superman, his creation was perhaps purer, in a sense, for lack of a better word, than Batman's, who was born out of demand. I suppose I can agree with that, but that hardly makes him a "sellout".

Quote:
]Now back to Iris. Let's agree to disagree that I'm eager to see what they have in store for us regardless of the changes while you feel like her sellout aspects are detrimental to the character.
I don't think the entire concept for a character is "detrimental" but for a few aspects, just that it isn't Iris West.

But yeah. Fine. Agreed then.

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Old 03-14-2014, 01:55 PM   #67
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Many of those things didn't appear in his first issue, they didn't even reveal the Batman was really Bruce Wayne until the very end, and all superheroes are "wish fulfillment".



So you're saying because there was no immediate "demand" from businesses for a character like Superman, his creation was perhaps purer, in a sense, for lack of a better word, than Batman's, who was born out of demand. I suppose I can agree with that, but that hardly makes him a "sellout".



I don't think the entire concept for a character is "detrimental" but for a few aspects, just that it isn't Iris West.

But yeah. Fine. Agreed then.


This debate went much more civilized than I thought it would. Kudos.

Anyway, how long do you guys think Iris or some other love interest will be in the dark regarding the secret ID. Im speaking in terms of comparison to ASM.

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Old 03-14-2014, 02:58 PM   #68
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Eh....I have a feeling they'll reveal it sooner than later. That seems to be the norm these days, hardly anybody has a secret identity anymore. I was amazed Spider-Man made it to a second movie before revealing it to Mary Jane at the end of Spider-Man 2. Just a feeling they won't keep it a secret very long.

I'll be impressed if they do. Of course if they have other characters who are aware of Barry's secret for him to bounce his adventures and full life off of (as some of the dialog bits seem to indicate) that may increase the chance of Iris not knowing as they already have a character(s) Barry can interact with about his secret, but I could see it going either way regardless, really. We'll see.


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Old 03-14-2014, 03:19 PM   #69
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Did you ever hear the term figure of speech? Because that was what was meant by that...nothing more. It's funny, I knew as I was typing that that you were probably going to single out the usage of that term, thanks for not disappointing, lol...I was like "just seems like that type of person"...

Any chance to bash religion...



Lmao. Oh brother....yes, great and wise Dr Cosmic, tell the spear chuckers that worship fire to go away...

Consider us more like girl scouts who don't want anyone to miss out on delicious delicacies.

But you know....maybe one day when we're as smart as you and learn to go along with anything Hollywood wants to do with the characters, we'll understand...

Thanks for taking the time to show us your disdain for religion and religious people though.
I've learned that tends to be the rule of thumb around here.

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Old 03-14-2014, 05:34 PM   #70
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I've learned that tends to be the rule of thumb around here.
Yeah. Tolerance, huh?


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Old 03-17-2014, 09:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

Don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but it just occurred to me.....

...If Iris is Black on the show and they introduce Wally in later seasons, could that mean that we could possibly be getting a Black Flash?!?!?!




YESSSSS!!!!!

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Old 03-17-2014, 10:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

I'm sorry, but a basic character profile is not proof of anything other than a basic character profile. It doesn't say how the storyline will play out and it certainly doesn't say whether it will be done well or not. Sorry, but to argue that it does is just ludicrous, laughably so.

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Old 03-25-2014, 09:38 PM   #73
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:57 AM   #74
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Default Re: The Iris West/Candice Patton Thread

"She's his... something."

Well said Cisco, well said.

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Old 05-01-2014, 11:47 PM   #75
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