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Old 07-04-2016, 09:07 PM   #101
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Out of curiosity, if the truth about Tommen and Joffrey came out, what happens to all the men they knighted or bastards they legitimised? Would it all be reversed?

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Old 07-04-2016, 09:10 PM   #102
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

Should be, but the only bastard legitimized (show wise) is dead now. it would have also meant Barristan was still the head of the kingsguard, jaime still has his oaths, etc.

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Old 07-04-2016, 09:13 PM   #103
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Marg protected tommen though... the citizens didn't despise him and call him bastard, and incest ****, and throw piles of crap at him like Joff... so people knew, just seemed they didn't much care when it was Tommen

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Old 07-04-2016, 10:00 PM   #104
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

The thing with bastards being acknowledged, is that there really isn't any legal "process". Ned basically just told the people around him that the boy was his bastard son and that was basically the long and short of it. With Robert he didn't really know any of his bastards, just had the vague idea that they existed and didn't seek any of them out.

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Old 07-04-2016, 10:02 PM   #105
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yea and Roose doesn't REALLY know Ramsay is his bastard... he 'knew' the same way Stannis 'knew' about Gendry... his eyes, etc.

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Old 07-05-2016, 01:37 AM   #106
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I'm not saying Jon Snow is a bad guy. You're making an emotional argument for him. In my view he's an oathbreaker, which isn't always the wrong path. Jaime is an oathbreaker, and he's had his balls busted for two decades. According to him though, he saved the city. You're rationalizing his oathbreaking the way Jaime does his own.

I'm sure Jon is about to go north and repopulate the abandoned castles along the wall. But he's still an oathbreaker, and if he were anyone else Ned Stark would take his head
No I'm just accepting the facts. He took an oath that stated his watch would end when he died. He died. His watch was ended. The oath doesn't say his watch ends at death unless resurrected.

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Old 07-05-2016, 01:49 AM   #107
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In order for me to have a debate/fight with someone, the other person would have to have the slightest idea as to what they are talking about. Had you not been a condescending snail so often, I might not despise you.

As for the legal crap.. the thread title is PERHAPS RHAEGAR MARRIED LYANNA. If Jon is known to be their son... and they were married. He is not a bastard.

Educate yourself before you try educating others. it gets old.

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:36 AM   #108
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:11 AM   #109
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Cool Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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No I'm just accepting the facts. He took an oath that stated his watch would end when he died. He died. His watch was ended. The oath doesn't say his watch ends at death unless resurrected.
Jon left on a loophole. The author of the oath clearly didn't have resurrection in mind since the oath ends "...for this night, and all the nights to come." To the author's wording, when you die it is permanent and you have no more nights left to give. Jon is still alive and spends his nights in winterfell.

I know I'm not going to convince you, but let me ask you this, why haven't any of the Northern lords, especially pre battle of the bastards, questioned him as a deserter?

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Old 07-05-2016, 08:18 AM   #110
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Marg protected tommen though... the citizens didn't despise him and call him bastard, and incest ****, and throw piles of crap at him like Joff... so people knew, just seemed they didn't much care when it was Tommen
They did when he went to the Sept in season 5 trying to get Loras freed.

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Old 07-05-2016, 09:20 AM   #111
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They did when he went to the Sept in season 5 trying to get Loras freed.
Yes we were led to believe that the High Sparrow had all of the commoners and peasants. "You are the few, we are the many." He said it best in his rebuttal to Olenna's threat of starving the Crownlands. Hopefully there will be some fallout from "the many" for Cersei blowing up the Sept

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Old 07-05-2016, 12:01 PM   #112
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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Jon left on a loophole. The author of the oath clearly didn't have resurrection in mind since the oath ends "...for this night, and all the nights to come." To the author's wording, when you die it is permanent and you have no more nights left to give. Jon is still alive and spends his nights in winterfell.

I know I'm not going to convince you, but let me ask you this, why haven't any of the Northern lords, especially pre battle of the bastards, questioned him as a deserter?
Well actually he isn't...he's undead.

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Old 07-05-2016, 01:10 PM   #113
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She's like Arya. Remember when Arya impulsively attacked Joffrey without thinking about how it may affect her friend the butcher's boy. Characters like that don't think about long term consequences. In the books ned says something along the lines of Lyanna's attitude leading her to an early grave. Seems like a bit of a weird thing to say if your sister was kidnapped.
Still, it is naive for Lyanna to assume that if she runs off with Rhaegar her family will be OK with it, especially when she was already betrothed and Prince Rhaegar married. She was responsible for the death of her family members whether it was intentional or not.

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Old 07-05-2016, 06:53 PM   #114
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

^ I guess it's her whole independent spirit, you don't choose who you love, blah blah blah.

Rhaegar, crown prince and all around swell guy would have to be considered an upgrade over Robert. Even though Robert was handsome, rugged, and a badass; he was still a savage man whore, and she knew that.

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Old 07-05-2016, 08:58 PM   #115
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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Yes we were led to believe that the High Sparrow had all of the commoners and peasants. "You are the few, we are the many." He said it best in his rebuttal to Olenna's threat of starving the Crownlands. Hopefully there will be some fallout from "the many" for Cersei blowing up the Sept
I hope we get a scene of commoners discussing Cersei like we did earlier in season 6. There ought to be rumors that Cersei has wildfire buried under the city ready to go off at a moment's notice just to cow the populace into submission.

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Old 07-06-2016, 09:51 AM   #116
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I hope we get a scene of commoners discussing Cersei like we did earlier in season 6. There ought to be rumors that Cersei has wildfire buried under the city ready to go off at a moment's notice just to cow the populace into submission.
I'd like everyone to leave Kings Landing so Cersei is left alone in the city with the Mountain and Qyburn. Total silence. Nothing to rule.

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Old 07-09-2016, 05:31 AM   #117
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

There is one obvious clue that Jon is legitimate and yet is seemingly ignored by many who don't want Jon to be so. The Kingsguard was protecting the Tower of Joy. Why would they be there if not to protect the royal offspring? Especially with the crown prince riding to battle? Instead of protecting Rhaegar they decided to stick around and protect a bastard... that isn't how that works. GRRM put them there as a huge clue. Namely, that is a Targ heir in that tower.

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Old 07-09-2016, 05:40 AM   #118
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Old 07-09-2016, 06:09 AM   #119
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The scene as it appears in the book:

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They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in “life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. “I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. “We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. “Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. “When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” “I came down on Storm’s End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, .,and the and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.”. “Lord Eddard,” Lyanna called again. “I promise,” he whispered. “Lya, I promise”
There is a lot in in the words of the Kingsguard here. Namely that they are in fact still Kingsguard, and that they are following their oath. They don't run from it. Ned wonders why they aren't with Viserys, the theoretical new heir. They are juxtaposed with Jaime (oathbreaker) and Ser Williem Darry (the man who saves Viserys and Dany's lives at Dragonstone). Neither are true Kingsguard (In Darry's case his brother was but he wasn't). But Dayne, Hightower and and Whent are. They are true believers in the Targs and their claim to the Iron Throne. They made oath and they are keeping it. They emphasis it. Now how are they doing that by being at the Tower of Joy? They didn't go to Dragonstone but stayed at the Tower of Joy. Why? Because the legitimate royal heir is in the Tower of Joy.

I am sure DigificWriter and other non-believers have a fine explanation for this.

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Old 07-09-2016, 09:49 AM   #120
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Default Re: Perhaps Rhaegar married Lyanna

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The scene as it appears in the book:


There is a lot in in the words of the Kingsguard here. Namely that they are in fact still Kingsguard, and that they are following their oath. They don't run from it. Ned wonders why they aren't with Viserys, the theoretical new heir. They are juxtaposed with Jaime (oathbreaker) and Ser Williem Darry (the man who saves Viserys and Dany's lives at Dragonstone). Neither are true Kingsguard (In Darry's case his brother was but he wasn't). But Dayne, Hightower and and Whent are. They are true believers in the Targs and their claim to the Iron Throne. They made oath and they are keeping it. They emphasis it. Now how are they doing that by being at the Tower of Joy? They didn't go to Dragonstone but stayed at the Tower of Joy. Why? Because the legitimate royal heir is in the Tower of Joy.

I am sure DigificWriter and other non-believers have a fine explanation for this.
As a non-book reader (I have the books but no time to read them), this makes the scene at the Tower of Joy seemed much more logical.

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Old 07-09-2016, 12:30 PM   #121
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As a non-book reader (I have the books but no time to read them), this makes the scene at the Tower of Joy seemed much more logical.
Glad to help.

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Old 07-09-2016, 10:54 PM   #122
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I think it's very much a possibility that Rhaegar was in a polygamous relationship.

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Old 07-10-2016, 12:46 AM   #123
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Yeah, perhaps. I mean, Rhaegar's wife was from Dorne, and if most people in Dorne share Oberyn's and Ellaria's attitudes about love and sex, maybe his wife was totally cool with him running off with Lyanna.

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Old 07-10-2016, 03:51 AM   #124
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I don't know that she was happy with it, because Oberyn and Doran were apparently VERY pissed off by Rhaegar running off with another woman and basically shaming Elia. But I don't think that would have stopped Rhaegar from doing what he wanted, he's a Targaryen after all.

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Old 07-10-2016, 07:36 AM   #125
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If I remember correctly, Elia was very frail and not really capable of having another child without risking death. That may have played into the situation on her end.

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