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View Poll Results: Do you think Affleck is a good choice?
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:49 PM   #51
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus View Post
They are also soldiers fighting wars against enemy combatants. Batman is a masked vigilante taking the job of the police in his own hands.

Luke Skywalker may have killed a billion people when he blew up the Death Star, but if he hesitated for even a second Yavin would have been blown up up and the entire Rebel Alliance wiped out in an instant.

It is apples and oranges.

Even then they use lethal force as a last resort when negotiations fail.
Exactly

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Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
If someone is fine with Batfleck killing, that's alright. It's their choice, but I don't see how Luke Skywalker, Picard, or even Captain America killing anyone or not is a relevant supporting argument for the same being acceptable for batman.

It shouldn't be used as proof that good characters killing is fine because those other characters aren't batman. The good guys come with different personalities and moral codes. There's a wide spectrum of acceptable "good guy" behavior that varies from one character to the next. This isn't a "one choice fits all" situation.
Also true.

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I'm not sure if we have yet reached the stage we did with MoS wherein the armchair-critics had begun to simply fabricate elements of the movie in order to dislike them, but I did not really perceive Batfleck to have undertaken a murderous rampage. Certainly, people died by his hand, directly and indirectly, but this did not to me seem to be the objective.
All his kills were deliberate, and unnecessary, except for maybe the flamethrower guy about to roast Martha. There was also no reason to brand the criminals, other than to have them killed in prison. That was sadistic and messed up. Very, very anti-Batman behavior.

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Originally Posted by Baneis8feettall View Post
Batman's no killing rule rocks because:

1. There are so many awesome storylines around "no kill" rule.

2. Makes him different than regular vigilante story.

3. It establishes how good at his craft. Taking bad guys without firearms and without killing establish how skilled he is compared to guys like Charles Bronson, Punisher, Marv type of characters.

4. It makes sense why a merely human uses batarangs over firearms, why he is more ninja than a commando.

Without it, you are pushing all these stuff to garbage.

Zack Snyder can't even realize how Batman's killing in BvS was different than Nolan's universe.

No wonder why only his straight adaptations from comics ends up as better movies. He is not the best decision maker and BvS is unfortunately statement of that.

I hope Ben Affleck realize that quickly and shows us character in control for a reason like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven or Terminator in T2... or just pretend like BvS didn't happen like many franchise movies do in these days.

It doesn't make any sense if he blows thugs up and let other villains live because they are famous.

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Old 04-14-2016, 09:44 AM   #52
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

So I was playing Gawd of War, and Kratos was killing brutally and mercilessly. But I don't see ya people complain about that.

Hippocrites.

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Old 04-14-2016, 11:08 AM   #53
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

People still whining about Batman killing? I want to ask how Batman would have neutralized those men with the machine guns by the warehouse without blowing them up? You do realize that he would have run out of time to save Martha, right? Good hell... Were you same people mad when he blew up the league of shadows fortress killing hundreds?

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Old 04-14-2016, 11:18 AM   #54
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

People want to hold Batman to the same standards as Superman when he's just a man
I mean maybe Superman can stop a car with men shooting at him without destroying the car or maybe stop someone from using a grenade and hurting themself

Batman though?
The circumstances for him to do any of those things would require him to prioritize his enemies lives over his own which partly why in any movie his no kill code has been ignored.
You can make it work in the comics but even then he is always killing aliens or monsters so what exactly is his code? To never take life? To never take sentient life? To never kill within reasonable circumstances? To not kill his named villains?

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Old 04-14-2016, 11:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Originally Posted by Seahawksfan View Post
People still whining about Batman killing? I want to ask how Batman would have neutralized those men with the machine guns by the warehouse without blowing them up? You do realize that he would have run out of time to save Martha, right? Good hell... Were you same people mad when he blew up the league of shadows fortress killing hundreds?
That's totally untrue. He was able to take out a room full of armed men, so why should those machine gun toting thugs be more of a challenge than an enclosed room full of them?

Furthermore how do you justify him branding criminals so they'll be murdered in prison? There's no grey area here. This Batman was killing because he wanted to. Not because he had to.

People have been "whining" about this since Keaton's days;






They will always criticize Batman needlessly killing any time it's done. And rightfully so. It's a bastardization.

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Originally Posted by Knight-Tale View Post
People want to hold Batman to the same standards as Superman when he's just a man
I mean maybe Superman can stop a car with men shooting at him without destroying the car or maybe stop someone from using a grenade and hurting themself

Batman though?
The circumstances for him to do any of those things would require him to prioritize his enemies lives over his own which partly why in any movie his no kill code has been ignored.
You can make it work in the comics but even then he is always killing aliens or monsters so what exactly is his code? To never take life? To never take sentient life? To never kill within reasonable circumstances? To not kill his named villains?
It's got nothing to do with the same standards as Superman. It's about Batman killing when he doesn't have to. It can work in any medium. Taking a life when he has no choice to save an innocent life or lives is acceptable, and he's done that. Just killing because he wants to, that's something else altogether.


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Old 04-14-2016, 12:06 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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People still whining about Batman killing? I want to ask how Batman would have neutralized those men with the machine guns by the warehouse without blowing them up?
Rubber bullets. Like the The Dark Knight Returns.

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Old 04-14-2016, 12:39 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

Batman was able to take out a room full of armed men because he surprised them and disabled their weapons before they were much of a threat. I don't know that he'd be able to do quite the same trick with those cannons he was facing realistically. I suppose anything is possible.

As for rubber bullets...they can cause death. Anything can. You can punch someone and cause their death.

Rubber bullets are considered a nonlethal option, but they too can create injuries that result in death. It's rare, but its documented. You fire a projectile at someone, you run the risk of killing them.

I think the film wants you to believe that the machine guns pose a threat to the Batwing. And realistically, they probably would, even if we don't see the thing blown to pieces (obviously they needed that to happen later). If that's the case, you could certainly argue that he was acting in self defense to a point.

Also, in order to enter the building, Batman would need to avoid the machine guns. I suppose you could argue that he could land on the roof and go from there, but this film asks us to believe this is the only viable option, and that the machine gunners pose enough of a threat to him via their existence. Seeing as how machine guns are dangerous, I can buy this in terms of film logic.

Not that it makes Batman killing any more palatable. Granted, I don't think it's supposed to be.

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Old 04-14-2016, 12:42 PM   #58
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

Ask Chris (About Batman) #54: Why Doesn’t Batman Kill?

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Old 04-14-2016, 12:46 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

I think the dilemma has always been that we want to see things go boom in an action movie, but we also don't want to see Batman leave such a trail of bodies in his wake. Maybe they should incorporate some kind of supersmart CPU into his vehicle weaponry....and show us, like in T2.



Maybe Cyborg can hook him up.

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Old 04-14-2016, 01:27 PM   #60
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Batman was able to take out a room full of armed men because he surprised them and disabled their weapons before they were much of a threat. I don't know that he'd be able to do quite the same trick with those cannons he was facing realistically. I suppose anything is possible.

As for rubber bullets...they can cause death. Anything can. You can punch someone and cause their death.

Rubber bullets are considered a nonlethal option, but they too can create injuries that result in death. It's rare, but its documented. You fire a projectile at someone, you run the risk of killing them.

I think the film wants you to believe that the machine guns pose a threat to the Batwing. And realistically, they probably would, even if we don't see the thing blown to pieces (obviously they needed that to happen later). If that's the case, you could certainly argue that he was acting in self defense to a point.

Also, in order to enter the building, Batman would need to avoid the machine guns. I suppose you could argue that he could land on the roof and go from there, but this film asks us to believe this is the only viable option, and that the machine gunners pose enough of a threat to him via their existence. Seeing as how machine guns are dangerous, I can buy this in terms of film logic.

Not that it makes Batman killing any more palatable. Granted, I don't think it's supposed to be.
If you use bullets, clearly the intent is to kill. If you use rubber bullets, the intent is to injure, not to kill. Even if it leads to a death, the choice to use rubber bullets clearly shows that Batman doesn't want to kill them. Also, he brands criminals knowing it leads to death in prison. That's pre-meditated murder. Speaking of pre-meditated murder, he carefully planned out the death of Superman. AFTER already dropping his moral code completely. He basically turned into the Punisher 10 or 15 years into his "career", then stops himself from killing Superman, which makes no difference because he pulls a Punisher in the next scene.

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Old 04-14-2016, 01:50 PM   #61
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

Except that people, especially fans, obviously have an issue with Batman killing or possibly killing people. And using guns.

Not whether it's considered "murder" or not, because any argument about whether it's actually murder devolves into arguments that he has become the (sees the Punisher argument in your post and trails off)

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Old 04-14-2016, 02:05 PM   #62
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

I really think the heart of the issue stems from wanting to deliver big explosive action beats, as these are big blockbuster action movies after all.

Burton seemed to chalk up Batman's kills, like the guy he straps the bomb to in BR as "eh, it's just a cartoon, I imagine he gets back up." (he said something to that effect in the commentary)

The Nolans seemed to genuinely struggle with the idea, but they did write it into the narrative. Lines like "didn't you think there would be some casualties?" show that they acknowledge that Batman is waging a WAR and in war, people die. But they also depict a nobility, whether you want to call it foolish or not, in Batman still trying to live by a moral code and not become an executioner, not becoming the thing he fights against. I think it's important because it's a huge part of why Batman is so likable as a hero, even if me may be flawed and even hypocritical at times and fall short of those ideals.

With this movie, it feels like Snyder looked at the history of Batman in movies, realized that they all killed, and just used that to justify taking it to the extreme so he could depict the most violent and ruthless Batman ever. Well, mission accomplished. That doesn't mean fans have to like it, or even respect it ("cause it's part of an arc!") though. That's the risk you take when you play around with the core of these characters. And Snyder doubled that risk because he plunged the audience right into this darker Batman, without them getting to see the progression of how he got there.


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Old 04-14-2016, 02:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

My biggest gripe with the complaining about the characterization of Batman is the idea that his characterization not being "your Batman" somehow has any bearing on the overall quality of the film or the story being presented. My personal Batman probably wouldn't kill, but it's not my ****ing movie, and I welcome other interpretations - especially when this one is actually using the idea that this Batman has been pushed past his own breaking point and is now becoming that which he fought against - only to be reminded that he needs to be better thanks to the hope instilled by Clark's actions. I mean, maybe the execution wasn't to your liking, but that is just a great use of both characters and a meditation on what they stand for and how they impact one another.

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Old 04-14-2016, 02:39 PM   #64
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
If you use bullets, clearly the intent is to kill. If you use rubber bullets, the intent is to injure, not to kill. Even if it leads to a death, the choice to use rubber bullets clearly shows that Batman doesn't want to kill them. Also, he brands criminals knowing it leads to death in prison. That's pre-meditated murder. Speaking of pre-meditated murder, he carefully planned out the death of Superman. AFTER already dropping his moral code completely. He basically turned into the Punisher 10 or 15 years into his "career", then stops himself from killing Superman, which makes no difference because he pulls a Punisher in the next scene.
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Originally Posted by MrsKent26 View Post
If someone is fine with Batfleck killing, that's alright. It's their choice, but I don't see how Luke Skywalker, Picard, or even Captain America killing anyone or not is a relevant supporting argument for the same being acceptable for batman.

It shouldn't be used as proof that good characters killing is fine because those other characters aren't batman. The good guys come with different personalities and moral codes. There's a wide spectrum of acceptable "good guy" behavior that varies from one character to the next. This isn't a "one choice fits all" situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baneis8feettall View Post
Batman's no killing rule rocks because:

1. There are so many awesome storylines around "no kill" rule.

2. Makes him different than regular vigilante story.

3. It establishes how good at his craft. Taking bad guys without firearms and without killing establish how skilled he is compared to guys like Charles Bronson, Punisher, Marv type of characters.

4. It makes sense why a merely human uses batarangs over firearms, why he is more ninja than a commando.

Without it, you are pushing all these stuff to garbage.

Zack Snyder can't even realize how Batman's killing in BvS was different than Nolan's universe.

No wonder why only his straight adaptations from comics ends up as better movies. He is not the best decision maker and BvS is unfortunately statement of that.

I hope Ben Affleck realize that quickly and shows us character in control for a reason like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven or Terminator in T2... or just pretend like BvS didn't happen like many franchise movies do in these days.

It doesn't make any sense if he blows thugs up and let other villains live because they are famous.
Agreed.

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My biggest gripe with the complaining about the characterization of Batman is the idea that his characterization not being "your Batman" somehow has any bearing on the overall quality of the film or the story being presented. My personal Batman probably wouldn't kill, but it's not my ****ing movie, and I welcome other interpretations - especially when this one is actually using the idea that this Batman has been pushed past his own breaking point and is now becoming that which he fought against - only to be reminded that he needs to be better thanks to the hope instilled by Clark's actions. I mean, maybe the execution wasn't to your liking, but that is just a great use of both characters and a meditation on what they stand for and how they impact one another.
Bad killing version of Batman is not my Batman complaint it's just complaint about terrible version of Batman. Only bad version of Batman can be pushed to turning killer.

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Old 04-14-2016, 03:14 PM   #65
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My biggest gripe with the complaining about the characterization of Batman is the idea that his characterization not being "your Batman" somehow has any bearing on the overall quality of the film or the story being presented. My personal Batman probably wouldn't kill, but it's not my ****ing movie, and I welcome other interpretations - especially when this one is actually using the idea that this Batman has been pushed past his own breaking point and is now becoming that which he fought against - only to be reminded that he needs to be better thanks to the hope instilled by Clark's actions. I mean, maybe the execution wasn't to your liking, but that is just a great use of both characters and a meditation on what they stand for and how they impact one another.
I don't think it has any bearing on the overall quality of the film or the storytelling, but I do think fans have a right to object if they feel like a line has been crossed.

Many fans objected to a Batman that retired in Rises. Now, I could argue all day about how that was the perfect way to tell that story, but at some point it becomes futile because I know that we've all got a lot of baggage when it comes to characters this iconic and there are going to be certain creative decisions that just rub us the wrong way and create a disconnect.

Of course, it's a tough balancing act to walk where you want to make some interesting creative choices so it's not completely safe and up the middle, while at the same time not straying too far that it becomes a no longer recognizable version of the character. And that last part is going to greatly depend on one's own taste, but the killing thing is something that has been a sensitive issue for fans for a long time. And Snyder used blunt force in dealing with that area of the character- for better or worse.

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Old 04-14-2016, 03:16 PM   #66
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Except that people, especially fans, obviously have an issue with Batman killing or possibly killing people. And using guns.

Not whether it's considered "murder" or not, because any argument about whether it's actually murder devolves into arguments that he has become the (sees the Punisher argument in your post and trails off)
Because you don't like reading the truth. Even Gerry Conway, co-creator of Punisher and former Batman writer compared Batfleck to him.

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Old 04-14-2016, 03:26 PM   #67
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My biggest gripe with the complaining about the characterization of Batman is the idea that his characterization not being "your Batman" somehow has any bearing on the overall quality of the film or the story being presented. My personal Batman probably wouldn't kill, but it's not my ****ing movie, and I welcome other interpretations - especially when this one is actually using the idea that this Batman has been pushed past his own breaking point and is now becoming that which he fought against - only to be reminded that he needs to be better thanks to the hope instilled by Clark's actions. I mean, maybe the execution wasn't to your liking, but that is just a great use of both characters and a meditation on what they stand for and how they impact one another.
He wasn't becoming, he already became.

In a nutshell it's "I became a douche bag, im acting out of character. But Superman, you helped me see my selfish ways, so i just won't kill again." But he's not like other heroes!! When Batman loses it completely, people don't buy it anymore. At least i don't. I don't care how heroic he is in the future, he broke his moral compass, became a murderer (not just someone who committed manslaughter/killed in self-defense), became what he despised, and MOST IMPORTANTLY Bruce was probably responsible for some children who currently have no parents. Yet Joker, Riddler, Black Mask, Penguin probably roam free and run their businesses.

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Old 04-14-2016, 03:27 PM   #68
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Because you don't like reading the truth. Even Gerry Conway, co-creator of Punisher and former Batman writer compared Batfleck to him.
Because I'm beyond bored with the comparison and the observation.

You can compare them, like you can compare anything, in the sense that this version of Batman and classic depictions of The Punisher are vigilantes that don't care for the well being of criminals and use guns and sometimes kill. You could say the same about Nolan's Batman as well.

But that's, frankly (heh), rather a shallow comparison and it's a shallow interpretation of the Punisher to boot. Being a vigilante and using guns and killing criminals is hardly all that makes The Punisher who he is.

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Old 04-14-2016, 04:00 PM   #69
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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He wasn't becoming, he already became.

In a nutshell it's "I became a douche bag, im acting out of character. But Superman, you helped me see my selfish ways, so i just won't kill again."
we still don't know he won't kill again though. he just decided not to brand criminals anymore, starting with Lex. nothing in the movie says he ever had a no-kill code.

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Old 04-14-2016, 04:33 PM   #70
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Because I'm beyond bored with the comparison and the observation.

You can compare them, like you can compare anything, in the sense that this version of Batman and classic depictions of The Punisher are vigilantes that don't care for the well being of criminals and use guns and sometimes kill. You could say the same about Nolan's Batman as well.

But that's, frankly (heh), rather a shallow comparison and it's a shallow interpretation of the Punisher to boot. Being a vigilante and using guns and killing criminals is hardly all that makes The Punisher who he is.
You can be bored with it, but how is he not acting more like the Punisher compared to Batman? Fine, ill call him Rorschach from now on. Batfleck's defenders seem to gush about the surface stuff right? Well on the surface this Batman is acting the same way Punisher acts on the surface. Vengeance, guns, murder, to him he's getting them off the streets forever, his way. On the surface, Batman is not supposed to act like Punisher, like that.

Sometimes kill?

...

I know it's a shallow interpretation of Punisher. Batfleck is not on Punishers level.

I don't care what could have happened in Batfleck's past, it's irrelevant because it's never talked about. As of now it doesn't exist. All that exists is an older Batman who is cruel, he looks at a Robin suit which in the context of the movie (not our knowledge of comics) could mean anything. It could mean Robin disappeared, died, was kidnapped, grew out of the costume. Joker toyed with Batman, and it means something to Bats. That's it. What else do we know about Bruce other than he's cruel and rich? Oh yeah, he plans out murders, kills to get thugs out of his way, he's sadistic about it, UNTIL he sees an alien sacrifice his life for mankind. So Bruce then starts feeling like the human race has some good left. "We can do better". We CAN, not we will over night, but we can strive to do better. No evidence that he will stop killing overnight. Only a scene where he warns Luthor that if he tries anything, he'll brand his ass. We're not sure if he was using it as a scare tactic or if it was a legit warning, threatening Lex to do the right thing or he'll be dead. I don't think Batman needed to go to prison with that in his hand in order to intimidate Luthor. He could have punched him in the face a few times or just told him straight up. I thought he was done with the branding/killing by this point? Which begs the question. Why even go there in the first place? Oh i know, they needed a scene where Lex has a bald head and hypes the audience up for the upcoming baddie in Justice League. Luthor was caught, thrown in prison. Old school batman (he's back to that right?) would be fine with that. That's the whole point of his crusade, catch em', lock em' up. He doesn't have to visit to make sure the villain got the message. From Lex's perspective Batman is still a murderous rage monster who brands people, and has been doing this for years. Im sure that's enough for Lex to know that if he escapes, Batman will find him. He's aware that Batman and Superman figured out that Lex was behind it all. He KNOWS Bats will be waiting for him to kill his ass. Why is the scene there? Could have just cut to Lex babbling about DING-DING and left it with Bruce talking about humanity to Diana.

BTW, this prison scene is AFTER the line at the cemetery. What an arc! Lmao it's like "We'll show Bruce talking about how he'll do better by Superman, humanity is still good, but we'll bring Batman to Lex's cell ready to brand him right after. He'll try to punch him the brand, but chooses last second not to do it!". Soooo all that talk about doing better, yet next day Batman had branding/murder on his mind! LMFAO, this movie i tell ya!

If you want to just isolate this movie and pretend the comics have nothing to do with it, you can see this version of Batman as its own thing. Him killing, works for the movie even though we know the character and want him to behave differently. Fine, let's judge the movie by itself. It doesn't make the movie bad. What makes the movie bad or mediocre is the poor editing that sometimes ruins the flow of the story or confuses you, lack of character development/motivations, a frustrating tone, OK dialogue, annoying antagonists, one-note characters and not much difference in mood between the two leads. You have a couple of solid performances and some pretty cool visuals to keep your eyes glued for chunks of the film. That's basically it from my POV. Batman without a code is the least thing wrong with this movie!

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we still don't know he won't kill again though. he just decided not to brand criminals anymore, starting with Lex. nothing in the movie says he ever had a no-kill code.
That's exactly right. As far as we know for sure, he's just a Batman who kills. We could speculate all we want about if he had a code or not, but until we see proof, he's a Bat-Killer.

He didn't even decide not to brand criminals anymore. We don't know that. He just didn't do it to Lex. Batman brands criminals on the streets so they can go to prison and die. Here, he went to prison, intending on branding him or to strike fear into him. There's no evidence that he won't brand somebody else in Gotham.

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Old 04-14-2016, 07:27 PM   #71
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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People still whining about Batman killing? I want to ask how Batman would have neutralized those men with the machine guns by the warehouse without blowing them up? You do realize that he would have run out of time to save Martha, right? Good hell... Were you same people mad when he blew up the league of shadows fortress killing hundreds?
You'd think Batman would have some sort of rubber bullet, precision automatic aiming to take those guys out without just blowing them up. I mean it's Batman for heavens sakes!

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Old 04-14-2016, 07:37 PM   #72
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

Rubber bullets would have done the job. I actually liked the branding until it became clear that it meant death in prison. Why did they have to add that?

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Old 04-14-2016, 08:02 PM   #73
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

Because it's fun!

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Old 04-14-2016, 08:05 PM   #74
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Rubber bullets would have done the job. I actually liked the branding until it became clear that it meant death in prison. Why did they have to add that?
It wasn't "clear", it was surmising in a news report. Given there were only two cases of it happening, it's not like it was this long and ongoing pattern.

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Old 04-14-2016, 10:36 PM   #75
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Default Re: Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

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Rubber bullets would have done the job. I actually liked the branding until it became clear that it meant death in prison. Why did they have to add that?
To give Clark a reason to dislike batman. Although it ultimately became pointless because Lex's plot seemed to be the only reason Clark confronted batman.

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