The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5 - Part 7

[SilentWarriorZ]

it seems as if like shield has found all seven dragonballs and wished him back .

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

It's not that I'm worried how he gets brought back, it's that he's brought back at all. It cheapens the initial drama and makes it so any death from here on out is automatically a "well, they'll be brought back somehow" moment. I don't like it. If you do, that's fine.

It only cheapens the initial drama if it doesn't come with drama of it's own. I'd agree with you if there were zero consequences to Coulson being brought back. While we haven't seen them yet, I'm positive that there will be consequences once we find out what the story is, both from the ominous sounding "he can never know" and from the fact that in every Joss Whedon project where he's resurrected a dead character, there were huge consequences that came as a result of the character coming back. Angel, Darla, and Buffy all had intense psychological trauma that came as a result of dying and coming back to life, and Spike was trapped as a ghost and teetering on the edge of being sucked into hell for half a season, and we later found out he was brought back to be used as a pawn by a major villain who proceeded to dick him around for several episodes.

Love him or hate him, in Whedon's works both death and resurrection have a lot of weight to them, I don't think it will be any different in the case of Coulson. Wether he's an android or a clone who's been programmed to think he's Coulson or he's Coulson brought back to life through some method he would find morally offensive, there will be serious **** hitting the fan when he find out what the score is.

[Crimson King]

Originally Posted by The Question

It only cheapens the initial drama if it doesn't come with drama of it's own. I'd agree with you if there were zero consequences to Coulson being brought back. While we haven't seen them yet, I'm positive that there will be consequences once we find out what the story is, both from the ominous sounding "he can never know" and from the fact that in every Joss Whedon project where he's resurrected a dead character, there were huge consequences that came as a result of the character coming back. Angel, Darla, and Buffy all had intense psychological trauma that came as a result of dying and coming back to life, and Spike was trapped as a ghost and teetering on the edge of being sucked into hell for half a season, and we later found out he was brought back to be used as a pawn by a major villain who proceeded to dick him around for several episodes.

Love him or hate him, in Whedon's works both death and resurrection have a lot of weight to them, I don't think it will be any different in the case of Coulson. Wether he's an android or a clone who's been programmed to think he's Coulson or he's Coulson brought back to life through some method he would find morally offensive, there will be serious **** hitting the fan when he find out what the score is.

You make some good points, but it doesn't address my initial concern, which is that deaths in the story you're telling will cease to have as much weight if we know that it can be undone later. It doesn't matter (to me) that the character comes back with a lot of emotional trauma. It still means that the next time someone "dies" in the universe, it will lack as much drama as it could have had.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

You make some good points, but it doesn't address my initial concern, which is that deaths in the story you're telling will cease to have as much weight if we know that it can be undone later. It doesn't matter (to me) that the character comes back with a lot of emotional trauma. It still means that the next time someone "dies" in the universe, it will lack as much drama as it could have had.

I think that will only be the case if it A) Happens all the time, and B) is treated like it's no big deal. If it only happens once (which it only has so far) and is treated like a HUGE deal (which I'm sure it will be for all of the reasons I stated above) then I think we'll be fine.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by The Question

I think that will only be the case if it A) Happens all the time, and B) is treated like it's no big deal. If it only happens once (which it only has so far) and is treated like a HUGE deal (which I'm sure it will be for all of the reasons I stated above) then I think we'll be fine.

Yeah, I agree.
There's no indication that the MCU will give everyone a "get out of death free" card; which is more than a little ironic, considering that in the actual comic book universe, there's an old saying that "Nobody ever stays dead in the Marvel Universe, except Uncle Ben." Coulson's resurrection carries lots of weight and consequences, which will definitely emerge as the TV show goes on. They're not sweeping this under the rug like some cheap TV soap opera gimmick --- they fully understand the full weight of both Coulson's death and his rebirth.

[Crimson King]

We know someone is going to die in either A2 or A3. It's inevitable. What's going to be the thought we all have at that point? "They may not really be dead."

The reason we have that thought is because of Coulson. That's why I don't like it. It automatically makes you shrug off any future death in the series.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

We know someone is going to die in either A2 or A3. It's inevitable. What's going to be the thought we all have at that point? "They may not really be dead."

The reason we have that thought is because of Coulson. That's why I don't like it. It automatically makes you shrug off any future death in the series.

1: The notion of "they may not really be dead" is never a shrug around here, is a tsunami of feverish, desperate, half crazed theories to stem the unthinkable, ungodly notion that a character we like might not be in the next movie.

2: It would be that way wether Coulson was brought back or not. We're comic book nerds, we're not all that smart.

3: Again, Coulson being back won't cause anyone to shrug off anything if his coming back is both unique and a monumentally huge deal with serious consequences.


Plus, if it DOES turn out that the Coulson on TV isn't really Coulson, just a clone or an LMD who THINKS he's Coulson, then they didn't bring Coulson back anyway, they just created a new related character with a whole lot of angst.

[Crimson King]

Originally Posted by The Question

1: The notion of "they may not really be dead" is never a shrug around here, is a tsunami of feverish, desperate, half crazed theories to stem the unthinkable, ungodly notion that a character we like might not be in the next movie.

2: It would be that way wether Coulson was brought back or not. We're comic book nerds, we're not all that smart.

3: Again, Coulson being back won't cause anyone to shrug off anything if his coming back is both unique and a monumentally huge deal with serious consequences.


Plus, if it DOES turn out that the Coulson on TV isn't really Coulson, just a clone or an LMD who THINKS he's Coulson, then they didn't bring Coulson back anyway, they just created a new related character with a whole lot of angst.

Just because we, as comic book fans, are used to it doesn't make it right. Apply what we're used to in a movie that isn't comic-oriented. What would audiences think if people in Breaking Bad or Dexter suddenly sprang back from the dead, whether they were explained away as faking their death or clones or whatever. It would absolutely cause any future deaths on those shows to be met with suspicion. That's not what you want.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

Just because we, as comic book fans, are used to it doesn't make it right. Apply what we're used to in a movie that isn't comic-oriented. What would audiences think if people in Breaking Bad or Dexter suddenly sprang back from the dead, whether they were explained away as faking their death or clones or whatever. It would absolutely cause any future deaths on those shows to be met with suspicion. That's not what you want.

a) Neither BB nor Dexter belong to genres where miracles, magic, and science fiction are a part of the everyday process. So yeah, people would definitely balk at "I'm not *really* dead....I got better" moments in those shows. Marvel belongs to the superhero genre, where resurrection is as common as farts at a chili cook-off. Anybody who's miffed or mystified or mixed up by somebody coming back from the dead in a comic book or comic-book movie universe really knows nothing about the genre at all.

b) As The Question keeps pointing out: Coulson is the *only* resurrection in the MCU so far. And it's being treated with great gravity, mystery, and weight. And it might not even turn out to be an actual resurrection at all, but something else.

So don't freak out. Again, nobody's handing out "get out of death free" cards anywhere, nor will audiences perceive it that way.

[Crimson King]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

a) Neither BB nor Dexter belong to genres where miracles, magic, and science fiction are a part of the everyday process. So yeah, people would definitely balk at "I'm not *really* dead....I got better" moments in those shows. Marvel belongs to the superhero genre, where resurrection is as common as farts at a chili cook-off. Anybody who's miffed or mystified or mixed up by somebody coming back from the dead in a comic book or comic-book movie universe really knows nothing about the genre at all.

b) As The Question keeps pointing out: Coulson is the *only* resurrection in the MCU so far. And it's being treated with great gravity, mystery, and weight. And it might not even turn out to be an actual resurrection at all, but something else.

So don't freak out. Again, nobody's handing out "get out of death free" cards anywhere, nor will audiences perceive it that way.

A) None of that matters from a storytelling aspect. It still cheapens the death. The fact that it happens in comic books isn't because it's a great storytelling technique, it's because comic fans refuse to let anyone we love in comic books die. Editors are hamstrung by this, so we get retcons and false deaths and all sorts of doofy stuff. And just for the record, I put the faking death thing in there to head off anyone saying BB and Dexter weren't fantasy stories. Guess I didn't make that point clear.

B) Again, it doesn't matter that it's the "ONLY" resurrection so far. It only matters that they did it, and I don't like that they did it for reasons I've already explained.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

Just because we, as comic book fans, are used to it doesn't make it right.

I didn't say that. I'm saying that comic book fans are naturally more inclined to think that way than non comic book fans.

Originally Posted by Crimson King

Apply what we're used to in a movie that isn't comic-oriented. What would audiences think if people in Breaking Bad or Dexter suddenly sprang back from the dead, whether they were explained away as faking their death or clones or whatever. It would absolutely cause any future deaths on those shows to be met with suspicion. That's not what you want.

Well, Breaking Bad or Dexter are bad examples, what with them having no sci-fi or fantasy elements to them.

And I completely disagree with you there. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a perfect example. But Angel and Buffy died and came back to life on that show, and it didn't diminish future character deaths because they were handled the right way. It depends entirely on how you do it. If you treat characters coming back as no big deal and do it all the time, the yes, you're right. If it's rare and treated as a huge event, then you don't have that problem. Right now, in the MCU, it's rare and being treated as a huge event, so I don't think it's going to spoil audiences at all.

[Loki882]

Did Angel coming back in Buffy season 3 cheapen Tara's death, or Anya's death, no. Did Spike coming back in Angel season 5 cheapen Cordelia's death, or Doyle's death, or the unbelievably sad event that was Fred's death, no. Did Angel coming back, or Buffy coming back, or Spike coming back have consequences, yes and they led to some pretty dark stuff. I see no reason why Whedon wouldn't do the same to Coulson. The more that Whedon likes a character, the more he makes them suffer, its kind of his thing.

[Crimson King]

Originally Posted by The Question

I didn't say that. I'm saying that comic book fans are naturally more inclined to think that way than non comic book fans.



Well, Breaking Bad or Dexter are bad examples, what with them having no sci-fi or fantasy elements to them.

And I completely disagree with you there. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a perfect example. But Angel and Buffy died and came back to life on that show, and it didn't diminish future character deaths because they were handled the right way. It depends entirely on how you do it. If you treat characters coming back as no big deal and do it all the time, the yes, you're right. If it's rare and treated as a huge event, then you don't have that problem. Right now, in the MCU, it's rare and being treated as a huge event, so I don't think it's going to spoil audiences at all.

I addressed the BB and Dexter thing in my reply to Sam.

I appreciate that Whedon takes his character deaths seriously. I've listened to his comments on Coulson's death. I still disagree with the decision, especially since it boiled down to bringing back a character just because he liked the actor portraying the character rather than it being necessary for future stories. It complicates things more than it helps to make those future stories better.

[The Question]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

I addressed the BB and Dexter thing in my reply to Sam.

I appreciate that Whedon takes his character deaths seriously. I've listened to his comments on Coulson's death. I still disagree with the decision, especially since it boiled down to bringing back a character just because he liked the actor portraying the character rather than it being necessary for future stories. It complicates things more than it helps to make those future stories better.

I don't think "complicating things" and "making future stories better" are necessarily mutually exclusive. I think throwing a wrench into the mix can create new ideas you hadn't thought of before.

[Norrin Parker]

Originally Posted by Loki882

Did Angel coming back in Buffy season 3 cheapen Tara's death, or Anya's death, no. Did Spike coming back in Angel season 5 cheapen Cordelia's death, or Doyle's death, or the unbelievably sad event that was Fred's death, no. Did Angel coming back, or Buffy coming back, or Spike coming back have consequences, yes and they led to some pretty dark stuff. I see no reason why Whedon wouldn't do the same to Coulson. The more that Whedon likes a character, the more he makes them suffer, its kind of his thing.

I haven't finished Angel, this crushed me.

[Loki882]

Ooops, sorry. It's a great episode, watch it.

[Norrin Parker]

Its probably my fault for just starting a series that finished like 5 years ago haha

[metaphysician]

I think the bigger problem is that you all get *way* ahead of yourselves assuming that someone will die in A2 or A3. No, we *don't* know that it will happen. Some of us choose to *guess* that it will happen, but it is just that: a *guess*. No facts in evidence, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

[DyeLorean]

What if nobody dies, but instead gets severely injured? Wouldn't that be more interesting?

[Whiskey Tango]

Originally Posted by Norrin Parker

Its probably my fault for just starting a series that finished like 5 years ago haha

You're not alone, I just started watching Buffy only a few days ago.

[Norrin Parker]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

You're not alone, I just started watching Buffy only a few days ago.

yeah finished that now I'm on Angel, I'm a big fan now.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by DyeLorean

What if nobody dies, but instead gets severely injured? Wouldn't that be more interesting?

Not really since there wouldn't be any casualties then for the group that would be permanent.

I mean what would Star Wars be like if darth Vader never killed off most of the other jedi and only severely injured them...or if no one was killed in "the Dark Knight".

[Lord]

Originally Posted by Norrin Parker

I haven't finished Angel, this crushed me.

Originally Posted by Norrin Parker

Its probably my fault for just starting a series that finished like 5 years ago haha

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

You're not alone, I just started watching Buffy only a few days ago.

Originally Posted by Norrin Parker

yeah finished that now I'm on Angel, I'm a big fan now.

Glad to see both shows are getting some new fans

The best way to watch both shows to make the crossovers make sence is this:

http://simonhampel.com/buffy.html

Once Buffy Season 4 begins you watch an episode of Buffy, and then the respective number for Angel, Example: Buffy episode 1 > Angel Episode 1 > Buffy Episode 2 > and so on.

It's a shame most don't talk as much of Angel, when they recomend Buffy it's rare to see a mention of the Angel show, and even when people talk about Joss Whedon shows they generally mention only Buffy and Firefly. But the show is very good, not as good as Buffy but very close, it's a shame it ended before its time, but the good thing is that there is a comic book continuation.

About the comic books, the show of Buffy offered a good conclusion, so the comics are not exactly obligatory, However if you want to read more about the characters try them, Buffy had one called Season 8 which ran for 40 issues, while Angel had one called Angel: After the Fall, which ran for 16 issues + a miniseries called Spike: After the Fall, IDW published more comics of Angel after that, but they're not considered canon.

I haven't read it completelly but i heard Season 8 became a huge mess by the end, After the Fall is generally considered good for the most part.

After both series ended Dark Horse got the rights of Angel back from IDW and for their last series they did a Spike 8-issues miniseries that supposedly bridges the gap between Angel: After the Fall and Buffy Season 8.

The last series Darkhorse did with the franchise was release two 25 issues comics, which were Buffy Season 9 and Angel & Faith, i haven't been reading them for a while but the last time i saw they were strong, with Angel & Faith being better than the Buffy comic. To know which comics are part of the Season 9 wave you can check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_t...er_Season_Nine

[Supermanreturns]

We can confirm her?

Samuel L. Jackson: "I don’t think we begin shooting [The Avengers: Age of Ultron] before March of next year. I know we’re shooting in London, that James Spader is Ultron and going to be the bad guy, and that we added Ms. [Elizabeth] Olsen, but I don’t know what she’s doing, if she’s on the inside or the outside. I haven’t seen a script."

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/...-as-nick-fury/

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Supermanreturns

We can confirm her?



http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/...-as-nick-fury/

Sounds like it.
Also, guess we can confirm now that Nick Fury is back in AOU. Some people (including me) were speculating that he might not survive CATWS.