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Old 04-20-2017, 03:22 PM   #501
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And another shining example of the kind of close minded illogical Marvel fan mentality I was talking about. Someone presents a well thought out, detailed, balanced, constructive argument, and the response is he is simply wrong.

Fanboy bias at it's finest.
Twitter's full of this specific example, by the way. This is politics, neither party is all good.

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:25 PM   #502
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It's pretty simple in this case, because there's clear character motivations and arcs, but he's acting like there isn't, just to make a video, because, you now, clicks
There isn't clear character motivations and arcs, and you act like there is just because you're a fan of the movies.

See how easy it is to blindly dismiss something with no thought?

The guy had been making movie related videos for over 5 years before he made that DCEU one, and has over 75'000 subscribers. He doesn't need to make a 13 minute detailed video just to get clicks.

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:27 PM   #503
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There isn't clear character motivations and arcs, and you act like there is.

See how easy it is to dismiss something with no thought?
Did you just admit the opposite of what you're arguing? You really just seem to be an intellectual gangbang, coming from all directions but missing the target completely

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:28 PM   #504
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Twitter's full of this specific example, by the way. This is politics, neither party is all good.
Twitter is full of people who think Elvis is alive, too. This has nothing to do with politics. This is an obvious movie fan presenting a well made constructive, detailed video on a topic. Your disagreement of what he's saying doesn't make it politics or click bait. It was even posted on other movie websites it was so good e.g. http://www.avclub.com/article/dc-fil...haracte-249805

You see what you're saying is exactly the kind of unfounded claims the pro DCEU side come up with to attempt to invalidate valid criticisms against the movies. It's like you were sent here as an example to re-enforce what we were saying on the previous page.

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Did you just admit the opposite of what you're arguing? You really just seem to be an intellectual gangbang, coming from all directions but missing the target completely
No, I was using your own silly logic against you by dismissing what you're saying in the exact same empty way you did that vid.

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:41 PM   #505
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

Are you confused about something?

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:50 PM   #506
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Are you confused about something?
Honestly, I didn't know why you kept pressing him.

When people say someone is wrong... they usually back it up with their own evidence and ideas.

But when someone says that person is wrong... and adds nothing else--that's a statement and doesn't need an argument or counter-argument.

That's why I laughed. I was like "... this guy..."

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Old 04-20-2017, 03:51 PM   #507
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Honestly, I didn't know why you kept pressing him.

When people say someone is wrong... they usually back it up with their own evidence and ideas.

But when someone says that person is wrong... and adds nothing else--that's a statement and doesn't need an argument or counter-argument.

That's why I laughed. I was like "... this guy..."
True.

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Old 04-20-2017, 04:08 PM   #508
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Honestly, I didn't know why you kept pressing him.

When people say someone is wrong... they usually back it up with their own evidence and ideas.

But when someone says that person is wrong... and adds nothing else--that's a statement and doesn't need an argument or counter-argument.

That's why I laughed. I was like "... this guy..."
I did.

The film is Batman's. Hi arc involved his disillusion with vigilantism from the death of Robin and other such incidents, and being manipulated by Lex. By the end Superman helps him realise again why he got into vigilantism in the first place.

Superman's arc is dealing with the fallout of the Metropolis fight, and facing his critics (heh), all of which continue to fail because the poor bastard can't catch a break, because...guess what? Lex is manipulating THE JUSTICE SYSTEM and the public AGAINST Superman, and his arc is about trying to be what he and his dad talked about in MoS (and later on when he tries to run and hide), a hero, but Lex ironically helps him truly become the hero the world needed.

Wonder Woman's story is the simplest of all - she's been in hiding, disillusioned with the world, and Bruce's detective work shows he knows she's a metahuman. The email (the "unnecessary" JL setup) is there to put doubt in her mind that she can keep her current lifestyle up. That's why she realises she can't, she gets off the plane and kicks ass.

Lex's arc is one of inferority and fear despite power. His watchword is manipulation. He's manipulating everyone because Superman shouldn't exist. He doesn't want Superman to exist. Superman goes against everything he was brought up to know and believe in, so elimination is key.

Okay, there's why he's wrong. Happy now?

This guy...

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Old 04-20-2017, 08:32 PM   #509
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because of your poor understanding
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they don't really understand the importance
This (fans/critics/general audience not getting the brilliance/meaning/subtext, etc. of BvS/Snyder) excuse, again.

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Old 04-20-2017, 09:40 PM   #510
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This (fans/critics/general audience not getting the brilliance/meaning/subtext, etc. of BvS/Snyder) excuse, again.
Everybody says "this old excuse" but don't say the actual reason

and no

"it's just plain bad" isn't valid

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Old 04-20-2017, 09:57 PM   #511
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

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Everybody says "this old excuse" but don't say the actual reason
Reason for what? The 'old excuse' is the phony claim of detractors not understanding or "getting" the movie. An example is quoted in Ezrengel's post that you addressed there.

Quote:
and no

"it's just plain bad" isn't valid
Nobody uses that as a sole reason. It's always elaborated on with valid reasoning. Hence where the you don't get it excuse always comes in. People's valid reasons are just dismissed as misunderstandings.

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Old 04-20-2017, 10:35 PM   #512
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The last two pages should be saved and categorized as the perfect examples of the "You just don't get it" excuse. When the DCEU starts producing quality coherent movies we can always look back at this thread for a jolly good time.

So one could argue that when you have seen a great movie, it's followed by "that was great" which is followed by reasons like impeccable acting, a tight well executed script, great characters. When you see a really bad movie sometimes "it's just plain bad" is absolutely valid enough.


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Old 04-21-2017, 06:22 AM   #513
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Let me put it to you this way. Imagine if after Batman Begins, we never got TDK. Instead, in 2008, we got Batman (Bale) v Superman (a new but veteran Superman coming into the world of Nolan's Gotham): Dawn of Justice. With Luthor, Doomsday, Wonder Woman, Lois Lane.

Now think about that for a minute.

Well, that would suck, but mostly because Nolan established Batman Begins as taking place in a realistic world, with no super powers, aliens, magic, etc.


I disagree with the argument that they are rushing the DCEU, to the detriment of the characters. I like the way that MoS was like the first public knowledge of super powers, and I think it feels natural to the story that that event brings thenothers out of the woodwork and brings them together


I think it makes sense from a story perspective and from a financial perspective. You take a big gamble putting so much money into a film with a lesser know Superhero, or one that isn't taken very seriously by the general audience, like Aquaman. So, you can mitigate that risk by first including them in films with Batman and Superman, that you know will sell tickets. Then, ideally, people like what they see and get intrigued by the other characters, want to see more, and younger a bigger box office on their solo picture. I don't think rushing to catch up with Marvel is as big a motivation for them as people make it out to be

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Old 04-22-2017, 11:39 AM   #514
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I find a lot more of the DC fan boys much more rational in there discussions, often not resorting to bashing "marvel" but providing context with little to no-name calling, and then the response is usually "omg you idiot there just bad movies" or "omg conspiracy"...when its like no...we are trying to explain something, and your legitimately not even listening - which I get if you watch a movie and you want to enjoy it and not concentrate, stick to Marvel, theres nothing wrong with that, but don't sit there and legitimately bash something because of your poor understanding, and than claim your right.
Well, when someone suggests there is a media bias against this movie, or against the DC extended universe (mostly embodied by this movie for the moment), then I think it's legitimate to respond that that is ridiculous.

There is no bias against Batman and Superman having an awesome team-up, or against seeing the JLA come together in the movies.

People like these characters, and they like the JLA.

Speaking as a casual observer, I tend to get a little tired of the argument that this film is a brilliant work of art that critics just don't understand.

It's not hard to understand.

The main ideas have been handled better, more coherently, and with more nuance in many modern comics. The film draws directly on some of those comics (though mostly with ineptitude).

The people making the movie are raking in a ton of money, partly because they are working with iconic characters that have a broad appeal based solely on name-recognition and better movies made in the past.

There is a massive audience just waiting to embrace any half-way decent adaptation involving these characters.

So I don't think a movie like this faces some sort of entrenched media bias against it at all.


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Old 04-22-2017, 12:38 PM   #515
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

When a website Vox carries over 11 articles on their front page within 10 days of movie's release, I find it hard to believe that there's no bias against DC movies.

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Old 04-22-2017, 03:40 PM   #516
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When a website Vox carries over 11 articles on their front page within 10 days of movie's release, I find it hard to believe that there's no bias against DC movies.
DC keeps cranking out movies that most people find to be subpar in a variety of different ways, and the internet is full of valid reasons why that is the case. The DCEU is, thus far, a treasure trove of poor storytelling and awful choices. To look at the enormity of legitimate complaints and then insist there's a some sort of "bias" only demostrates a bias if your own and an inability to look at this subject objectively.

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Old 04-22-2017, 07:00 PM   #517
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

Maybe if all the DCEU fans declare these movies were actually bad and we were living in a bubble all along, Flint Marko will have his peace. Take one step further and say Marvel is superior and Sony actually sucks despite making one of the best superhero movies of all time (Spider Man 2).

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Old 04-22-2017, 07:44 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Limonade View Post
Honestly, I didn't know why you kept pressing him.

When people say someone is wrong... they usually back it up with their own evidence and ideas.

But when someone says that person is wrong... and adds nothing else--that's a statement and doesn't need an argument or counter-argument.

That's why I laughed. I was like "... this guy..."
That's clearly not the case, especially in this forum. Majority of people have poor or no reason to back up their claim of why someone is wrong.

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Old 04-22-2017, 07:49 PM   #519
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Default Re: All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - -

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Originally Posted by Flemm View Post
Well, when someone suggests there is a media bias against this movie, or against the DC extended universe (mostly embodied by this movie for the moment), then I think it's legitimate to respond that that is ridiculous.

There is no bias against Batman and Superman having an awesome team-up, or against seeing the JLA come together in the movies.

People like these characters, and they like the JLA.

Speaking as a casual observer, I tend to get a little tired of the argument that this film is a brilliant work of art that critics just don't understand.

It's not hard to understand.

The main ideas have been handled better, more coherently, and with more nuance in many modern comics. The film draws directly on some of those comics (though mostly with ineptitude).

The people making the movie are raking in a ton of money, partly because they are working with iconic characters that have a broad appeal based solely on name-recognition and better movies made in the past.

There is a massive audience just waiting to embrace any half-way decent adaptation involving these characters.

So I don't think a movie like this faces some sort of entrenched media bias against it at all.
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Originally Posted by Flint Marko View Post
DC keeps cranking out movies that most people find to be subpar in a variety of different ways, and the internet is full of valid reasons why that is the case. The DCEU is, thus far, a treasure trove of poor storytelling and awful choices. To look at the enormity of legitimate complaints and then insist there's a some sort of "bias" only demostrates a bias if your own and an inability to look at this subject objectively.
Hear hear

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Old 04-22-2017, 10:51 PM   #520
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Maybe if all the DCEU fans declare these movies were actually bad and we were living in a bubble all along, Flint Marko will have his peace. Take one step further and say Marvel is superior and Sony actually sucks despite making one of the best superhero movies of all time (Spider Man 2).
You can think whatever you like about any movie and it doesn't bother me one bit. What I take issue with are conspiracy theories that only exist because some can't accept that their preferred films aren't widely embraced. It's objectively ridiculous and if there were any merit to the idea, some actual proof would have been produced by now.

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