Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 5

[Boom]

What the Legolas/Gimli friendship signified was the beginnings of a rekindled alliance between the elves and dwarves - an alliance that was effectively destroyed by the murder of Thingol. That's what gave it so much resonance. As Phantasm pointed out, Gimli was the only dwarf to sail across the sea to the Undying Lands. Even when the elves and dwarves were allies back in the old days, such a thing was unprecedented.

These two races did not like each other. Now, they could be amicable with one another if need be (Elrond was pleasant enough with the dwarves, and they to him), and Dain did honor Thorin's word in giving a portion of the treasure to Thranduil, but that doesn't change the fact that the dwarves and elves weren't so quick to join hands and be friends with one another.

During The Hobbit, the dwarves were, in their eyes, wrongfully imprisoned by the wood elves, and their tempers were all the more fueled when Bard brought the elves with him to the Gates of Erebor with the intention of procuring a portion of the treasure for them as payment for their aid to the people of Lake-town. So in addition to being wrongfully imprisoned (again, in their eyes), they now had to hand over treasure to those who wrongfully imprisoned them? To say that the situation was hostile is an understatement. Don't forget that the men/elves and the dwarves were about to start killing each other before Gandalf pointed out the arrival of the goblins and Wargs. Kili, being Thorin's fiercely loyal nephew, would have certainly stood in his uncle's defense - both against the imprisoning and the giving of treasure to the men/elves. If it came down to a battle between the men/elves and the dwarves, Kili would have killed them without hesitation. No question.

The animosity carries over to The Lord of the Rings. At the Council of Elrond, Gloin was quick to bring up the "wrongs" that the elves committed towards him and his twelve companions sixty years prior (despite it having nothing to do with the discussion at hand). And in Lothlorien, Haldir insisted that Gimli be blind-folded, while the other members of the fellowship were allowed to walk without one. The turning point comes with Gimli's encounter with Galadriel, and after all of the animosity we had seen between these two races leading up to this point, it packs a hell of a punch.

A friendship/romance between Kili and Tauriel is highly inappropriate given the circumstances of the story, and it undercuts the drama of the Legolas/Gimli friendship and the latter's feelings toward Galadriel (there is a reason why Gimli was given the specific designation "Elf Friend"). This idea is Hollywood pandering at best, and a blatant misunderstanding at worst.

[Mondragon]

I hope Smaug and Bill hook up, and you're all racist homophobes if you don't want this to happen!

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Mondragon

I hope Smaug and Bill hook up, and you're all racist homophobes if you don't want this to happen!

[Pink Ranger]

Even when two cultures are diametrically opposed to each other, individual members of those cultures still possess free will, and can interact in ways that have no impact one way or the other on said relations between cultures.

That stated, the above statement is actually against the world view Tolkien generally espoused in his books, so take from that what you will.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

Even when two cultures are diametrically opposed to each other, individual members of those cultures still possess free will, and can interact in ways that have no impact one way or the other on said relations between cultures.

That stated, the above statement is actually against the world view Tolkien generally espoused in his books, so take from that what you will.

Why do you say that? As Boom mentioned:

Originally Posted by Boom

These two races did not like each other. Now, they could be amicable with one another if need be (Elrond was pleasant enough with the dwarves, and they to him), and Dain did honor Thorin's word in giving a portion of the treasure to Thranduil, but that doesn't change the fact that the dwarves and elves weren't so quick to join hands and be friends with one another.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

Even when two cultures are diametrically opposed to each other, individual members of those cultures still possess free will, and can interact in ways that have no impact one way or the other on said relations between cultures.

That stated, the above statement is actually against the world view Tolkien generally espoused in his books, so take from that what you will.

Let me put it another way, remember during the civil rights movement? Didnt see many African Americans and whites marrying and buddying it up at the local bar. Ok now picture the hatred of those times and previous times and amplify that times 10-100. That is the situation between the dwarves and elves. They arent only different cultures. They are entirely different species who hate each other on a fundimental level and are indoctrinated by their culture from birth to believe the other species is scum.

The high elves and high dwarves would put away difference to meet for political reasons but they would not engage in social discourse or interact on any level beyond a political or mutual need of a goal.

[ThePhantasm]

Not to mention they don't even live in the same areas. The Dwarves are largely underground, making them a very secluded, private, and secretive culture. It isn't like these guys run into one another on a regular basis.

[Project862006]

we dont know how this possible relationship pans out if anything it can strengthen the hatred so wait and see

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Not to mention they don't even live in the same areas. The Dwarves are largely underground, making them a very secluded, private, and secretive culture. It isn't like these guys run into one another on a regular basis.

And their creation was by two separate gods. They are about as different as can be.

[Pink Ranger]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Let me put it another way, remember during the civil rights movement? Didnt see many African Americans and whites marrying and buddying it up at the local bar. Ok now picture the hatred of those times and previous times and amplify that times 10-100. That is the situation between the dwarves and elves. They arent only different cultures. They are entirely different species who hate each other on a fundimental level and are indoctrinated by their culture from birth to believe the other species is scum.

The high elves and high dwarves would put away difference to meet for political reasons but they would not engage in social discourse or interact on any level beyond a political or mutual need of a goal.

So basically, if someone wanted to write a novel about the romance between one white man and one black woman against the volatile historical backdrop of the civil rights movement, you would automatically dismiss it as being completely impossible?

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

So basically, if someone wanted to write a novel about the romance between one white man and one black woman against the volatile historical backdrop of the civil rights movement, you would automatically dismiss it as being completely impossible?

We're saying it really isn't analogous to that. This is a much, much, much deeper divide.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

So basically, if someone wanted to write a novel about the romance between a white man and a black woman against the volatile historical backdrop of the civil rights movement, you would automatically dismiss it as being completely impossible?

Now you are being willfully obtuse. In middle earth this relationship is not possible. Tolkien made it clear, and even jackson made it clear in LOTR. It can not happen. They are two cultures separated by gods, species, injustices, misunderstandings, and numerous other social restrictions. The species divide alone makes it ridiculous. It would be like a human trying to court a rodent. And yes some elves would equate a dwarf to a rodent because elves view themselves much higher on the pecking order. Just would not happen. These are the rules and the world created in both the books and the films. I dont see how this can be any more clear.

[Pink Ranger]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Let me put it another way, remember during the civil rights movement? Didnt see many African Americans and whites marrying and buddying it up at the local bar. Ok now picture the hatred of those times and previous times and amplify that times 10-100. That is the situation between the dwarves and elves. They arent only different cultures. They are entirely different species who hate each other on a fundimental level and are indoctrinated by their culture from birth to believe the other species is scum.

The high elves and high dwarves would put away difference to meet for political reasons but they would not engage in social discourse or interact on any level beyond a political or mutual need of a goal.

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Now you are being willfully obtuse. In middle earth this relationship is not possible. Tolkien made it clear, and even jackson made it clear in LOTR. It can not happen. They are two cultures separated by gods, species, injustices, misunderstandings, and numerous other social restrictions. The species divide alone makes it ridiculous. It would be like a human trying to court a rodent. And yes some elves would equate a dwarf to a rodent because elves view themselves much higher on the pecking order. Just would not happen. These are the rules and the world created in both the books and the films. I dont see how this can be any more clear.

Excuse me, I'm not the one who brought up the analogy of the black civil rights movement. You want wilfully obtuse, look in the goddamn mirror.

[Kane52630]

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

Excuse me, I'm not the one who brought up the analogy of the black civil rights movement.

Because you didnt seem to be getting what we were saying so i thought a real life example might help. But you instead got hung up on the example instead of seeing the point. Point is take the social divide of that real life time and multiply it across all barriers and add new barriers. That is as close as any real life event can get to the dwarf/elf divide. Gimli and legolas friendship was about as rare as turning air into gold.

[Pink Ranger]

Originally Posted by Kane52630

BTW, I crapped in that popcorn when you weren't looking.

[Kane52630]

Originally Posted by Pink Ranger

BTW, I crapped in that popcorn when you weren't looking.

[ThePhantasm]

Kane, is your reaction the dry heave or the fist pump?

[Thread Manager]

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread Here