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Old 02-01-2016, 04:16 PM   #201
John-An
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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There’s something called the “Joule-Thomson effect.” Essentially, rapidly expanding gases cool. You notice this when using an aerosol product: the spray - as well as the container - gets noticeably chilly. And hypothetically, this could be the “scientific basis” for Superman’s freeze breath. However, even with a scuba tank (which is very high pressure) the escaping air - though cold - can’t literally freeze objects (not like liquid nitrogen, for example). Now more extreme pressure differentials can (I believe) produce cryogenic temperatures. But stronger pressure entails a stronger “wind force.” And typically, Superman can deploy his “freeze breath” as a kind of specialized power that’s non-destructive (it freezes stuff but doesn’t blast them away). I recall one episode of L&C in which Clark surreptitiously chilled a martini - without disturbing the other glasses and bottles at the bar. Bottom line: “freeze breath” is a decidedly fanciful superpower.
What if due to his different molecular structure, the air he inhales somehow he changes it and exhales it as pure nitrogen or having the same qualities of nitrogen? Would that be possible? What it needs to be likely or believable... you mr. Scientist

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Old 02-01-2016, 08:26 PM   #202
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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What if due to his different molecular structure, the air he inhales somehow he changes it and exhales it as pure nitrogen or having the same qualities of nitrogen? Would that be possible? What it needs to be likely or believable... you mr. Scientist
Doesn't work.

Nitrogen isn't inherently cold. It's just convenient way to manipulate cold because it is plentiful, relatively non-toxic, turns liquid at super cold temperatures, and sublimates back into a mostly safe gas. However it's exactly those same properties that make freeze breath problematic.

Superman doesn't spew liquid he blows air. Super cold nitrogen under one atmosphere of pressure is a liquid. This is part of the reason freeze breath doesn't work scientifically. Unlike heat vision which can be excused as contained to a discrete energy beam, the mechanism of freeze breath is mechanical convection... low-heat matter pushing other low-heat matter to absorb heat away through matter-on-matter convection.

With an energy beam through the transparent medium of air that's plausible. With breath through the matter-filled-medium-of-air that's impossible. Basically, the air right in front of his mouth would freeze. Even if you want to argue it gets blown out of the way so that it can't, you're essentially explaining why it will fail to freeze large and dense solids with astronomical specific-heats successfully. For all intents and purposes, imagine trying to make this work underwater, which is basically what a nitrogen rich atmosphere is under freeze-breath conditions.

Superman's breath would have to be no colder than liquid nitrogen to remain breath, but as a gas it's not nearly conductive enough to perform your average Superman freeze-breath feat. Heck, you can dip an ungloved hand into liquid nitrogen unharmed (with caveats).

That's why, in a prior discussion, freeze breath "works" only if it is essentially a magical freeze ray which somehow ignores the medium it is traveling in and sucks away all the heat from a target without regard for convection or thermodynamics.

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Old 02-01-2016, 08:32 PM   #203
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

Well, you learn something new everyday.... Thanks for the answer

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Old 02-01-2016, 09:55 PM   #204
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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Doesn't work.

Nitrogen isn't inherently cold. It's just convenient way to manipulate cold because it is plentiful, relatively non-toxic, turns liquid at super cold temperatures, and sublimates back into a mostly safe gas. However it's exactly those same properties that make freeze breath problematic.

Superman doesn't spew liquid he blows air. Super cold nitrogen under one atmosphere of pressure is a liquid. This is part of the reason freeze breath doesn't work scientifically. Unlike heat vision which can be excused as contained to a discrete energy beam, the mechanism of freeze breath is mechanical convection... low-heat matter pushing other low-heat matter to absorb heat away through matter-on-matter convection.

With an energy beam through the transparent medium of air that's plausible. With breath through the matter-filled-medium-of-air that's impossible. Basically, the air right in front of his mouth would freeze. Even if you want to argue it gets blown out of the way so that it can't, you're essentially explaining why it will fail to freeze large and dense solids with astronomical specific-heats successfully. For all intents and purposes, imagine trying to make this work underwater, which is basically what a nitrogen rich atmosphere is under freeze-breath conditions.

Superman's breath would have to be no colder than liquid nitrogen to remain breath, but as a gas it's not nearly conductive enough to perform your average Superman freeze-breath feat. Heck, you can dip an ungloved hand into liquid nitrogen unharmed (with caveats).

That's why, in a prior discussion, freeze breath "works" only if it is essentially a magical freeze ray which somehow ignores the medium it is traveling in and sucks away all the heat from a target without regard for convection or thermodynamics.
...dip your hand in...yeah...for a like a second...that's the caveat...

...and you are forgetting the basic most principal Poindexter...
Superman can super-fast fly to the Antarctic or a nearby lab and ingest COLD....he then spews it out like a regurgitating pelican, sublimating "freeze breath" all over his foe!

...just joshin around...I don't know what I'm talking about...

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Old 02-01-2016, 10:56 PM   #205
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

I don't understand the argument against Freeze breath specifically. There is no plausibility for him to do anything he can.

Can't have superbreath because you'd need some piston to ram it into a compressed chamber.

Accepts flight because...... because he flaps his arms superfast in an aerodynamically acceptable manner?

C'mon, stop picking on his breath people! He promises to use mints and brushes regularly - it'll be fine

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Old 02-02-2016, 01:15 AM   #206
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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I don't understand the argument against Freeze breath specifically. There is no plausibility for him to do anything he can.

Can't have superbreath because you'd need some piston to ram it into a compressed chamber.

Accepts flight because...... because he flaps his arms superfast in an aerodynamically acceptable manner?

C'mon, stop picking on his breath people! He promises to use mints and brushes regularly - it'll be fine
This is the only actual accurate answer, despite all the Scientific techno babble of the last few pages.

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Old 02-02-2016, 03:26 AM   #207
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

Superman has enough powers and is nearly unstoppable already. He has flight, speed, strength, heightened senses, as well as multiple ocular powers. I'd only be fine with other powers with his eyes, because it all ties in together at least. Freeze breath just throws everything off. Superman doesn't even need it and I'm glad he doesn't have a power to solve most if not all problems or powers just because they look cool. I'm glad Superman has limits. If there's something that needs freezing, let it be a challenge rather than him just blowing his breath and quickly solving the problem or allow for some other hero with freezing powers to get the job done. What I'd like to see more of is Superman getting more creative with using the powers he already has.

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Old 02-02-2016, 08:49 PM   #208
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

he ain't from earth. so don't need a scientific mumbo jumbo reason. it just is. superman has freeze breath, and besides that what about his wind blowing ability? for realz!

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Old 02-02-2016, 09:23 PM   #209
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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Superman has enough powers and is nearly unstoppable already. He has flight, speed, strength, heightened senses, as well as multiple ocular powers. I'd only be fine with other powers with his eyes, because it all ties in together at least. Freeze breath just throws everything off. Superman doesn't even need it and I'm glad he doesn't have a power to solve most if not all problems or powers just because they look cool. I'm glad Superman has limits. If there's something that needs freezing, let it be a challenge rather than him just blowing his breath and quickly solving the problem or allow for some other hero with freezing powers to get the job done. What I'd like to see more of is Superman getting more creative with using the powers he already has.
You're right, he needs limits otherwise the rest of the JL are pointless. Flash is faster we understand. Snyder got his power level right, to do most things he did took effort. Getting hit by aircraft fire knocks his head back and he looks to want to avoid it. Getting his head shoved into the ground by Kryptonians almost knocks him out. It's possible to overload his senses. Using heat vision sends him blind, he needs a moment to recover from it, and it's clearly uncomfortable for him.

He needs serious limits.

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Old 02-03-2016, 05:44 AM   #210
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

I'd prefer that he face serious challenges.

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Old 02-03-2016, 06:41 AM   #211
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

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I'd prefer that he face serious challenges.
Me too. Extremely powerful hero makes it more dramatic when a villain like Doomsday arrives.. or Batman uses dirty tactics to take him down... or Lex's schemes etc.

Watered down Superman would be like Thor in MCU. Sure he should not destroy planets with a punch but what makes him great he is too powerful to mess with. Like Godzilla.

Dr.Manhattan was beyond Superman and still interesting character due to what's going on with him and world around him.

A good story can make him interesting even if he is invulnerable.

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Old 02-03-2016, 10:22 AM   #212
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

And the thing is, he's not actually invulnerable. But so powerful that when he does get hurt, you know things just got so bad that normal defcon 1 situations seem like a school yard argument between 2 kids.

But those who needs some sciency explanation - Superman has an internal cooling system to manage the massive heat generated by all the solar radiation he absorbs.

Whereas his heart vision is expelling some of that radiation, freeze breath is him expelling........ coolant

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Old 02-03-2016, 10:30 AM   #213
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Default Re: Freeze breath for mos2:superman/batman

Are you suggesting that the radiation builds up in his system to such a degree that maybe he needs to sneak off to the fortress of solitude bathroom from time to time and relieve himself of said pent up radiation ?...


...but he's such a nice boy...

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