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Old 05-08-2013, 10:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Fans always want to have their cake and eat it too.

When MCU started to become popular: "Marvel doesn't take risks! All their movies are cookie cutter fluff!!"

When Shane Black decides to take what is frankly a ludicrous racist character and write him in a manner to make a statement on western views on terrorism. "Oh no!, you're bastardizing an iconic character"

Its always "what have you done for me lately?" Always finding things to complain about
That is a ridiculous generalization and likely inaccurate. I'd bet good money those two groups of fans are completely separate.

People who think "Marvel doesn't take risks" are the ones who enjoyed The Mandarin in IM3.

People who have been loyal fans of the MCU since the beginning are the ones who complain about them "bastardizing an iconic character."

Anyone who complains about both is quite honestly just dumb.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But a glove with magical gems will.

Yes. Yes, it will.
Because Thanos is a cosmic character, and comes from a subgenre of comics where magic and spectacularly advanced alien technology are par for the course.

Iron Man comes from a subgenre of comics where it isn't. Yes, a character like Thanos *and* comic-book Mandarin fits right in with an Avengers movie, since the Avengers historically fight the over-the-top, uber-powered, cosmic villains with outlandish powersets and backstories. The Iron Man comics and movies are more concerned with "down-to-earth" nuts-and-bolts sci-fi, villains who are based on fairly credible modern technology, corporate warfare, and contemporary spy and political thrillers. That's not the milieu where a Fu Manchu with super-powered alien rings he nabbed from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer belongs.

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And this is the only one that turns him from "intimidating threat" to "hobo with smelly poops"
No, it turned him from "intimidating threat" to "intimidating threat with incredible superpowers, an army of similarly super-powered mercenaries, a vast amount of wealth and resources, and a genius intellect capable of providing Tony Stark with an enemy who is worthy of him."

The Mandarin is Killian. Period. Everybody who watched the movie (and plenty who haven't) knows that by now, including you. So any discussion of "zomg they raped the Mandarin" HAS to be predicated on discussion of KILLIAN as The Mandarin, NOT TREVOR SLATTERY as The Mandarin. Any argument that tries to make Trevor Slattery out to be The Mandarin is null and void and flat wrong.

And again: you know that. Don't play coy.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

The thing is, The Mandarin makes perfect sense within the context of the story. If this happened in say a Bourne movie, no one would have a problem with it. Its a rather genius plan by Killian tbh. Create a persona to absorb all the attention of the media and the government, and while they're going around in circles chasing their tails, you work behind the scenes to create an arms race of sorts within the war on terror. Its a great plan.

The point of the matter is this, Black and Feige had trepidations about how to translate the mandarin on screen. they said so as far back as comic-con last year. So they figured out a way to make him accessible to todays audience while at the same time making a statement. This was the story that Black wanted to tell.

Let me ask a question: would you be as mad if the character wasn't given the title "the mandarin" and was given some other moniker? Would a simple name/title change of Ben Kingsleys character make the movie better for you? If the answer is yes, then there's a problem. When you make as many movies and deal with as many character as marvel has done/will continue to do..you're occasionally going to have to seriously modify some characters because of a multitude of reasons. Maybe they are outdated, maybe they don't fit the directors vision in their current incarnation, or maybe they suck visually or something. Comics and film are two different mediums and stuff won't always be the way Stan Lee and jack kirby drew and wrote them.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

It's not the name, it's the marketing the character that was the issue.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I can understand why people would be mad at the marketing. But the idea itself was novel.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:38 PM   #31
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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It's not the name, it's the marketing the character that was the issue.
well, how else were they supposed to do it though? Show in the trailers than Kingsleys character was not what he seemd to be? The entire point was to shock the audience

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:47 PM   #32
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well, how else were they supposed to do it though? Show in the trailers than Kingsleys character was not what he seemd to be? The entire point was to shock the audience
Maybe not show him at all because it was setting it up to be an entirely different movie. Some of the angst come from feeling lied to, which you can't really argue against because it's obvious why some people would feel that way. If Kingsley Mandarin isn't built up as this massive threat then it's a different story and more people would be ok with it because the expectations wouldn't have been there. It works in context yes, but the way it was being built up made it look completely different, borderline false advertising.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Maybe not show him at all because it was setting it up to be an entirely different movie. Some of the angst come from feeling lied to, which you can't really argue against because it's obvious why some people would feel that way. If Kingsley Mandarin isn't built up as this massive threat then it's a different story and more people would be ok with it because the expectations wouldn't have been there. It works in context yes, but the way it was being built up made it look completely different, borderline false advertising.
But the again, its a trailer for an action movie. You HAVE to show what the hero is up against. You need to introduce the audience to the villain and play up the threat. It couldnt be Killian that they advertised. There's really no way around it when you think about it.

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Old 05-08-2013, 10:54 PM   #34
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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The Mandarin as a concept just does not work in modern times, it's ****ing stupid.
This same argument was constantly used to say a live action Thor would never work... Just sayin'

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Iron Man comes from a subgenre of comics where it isn't. Yes, a character like Thanos *and* comic-book Mandarin fits right in with an Avengers movie, since the Avengers historically fight the over-the-top, uber-powered, cosmic villains with outlandish powersets and backstories. The Iron Man comics and movies are more concerned with "down-to-earth" nuts-and-bolts sci-fi, villains who are based on fairly credible modern technology, corporate warfare, and contemporary spy and political thrillers. That's not the milieu where a Fu Manchu with super-powered alien rings he nabbed from a dead dragon in a crashed flying saucer belongs.
I'm not a fan of it, but I don't share the opinion that the Mandarin twist ruined the movie. I enjoyed IM3 very much.
However, I also don't agree with what you and others have expressed about the impossibility of having had another version of The Mandarin that was closer to the comics. It would have been possible to create such a character without involving aliens or "magic".
By the way, I don't understand why many people think this sub-genre segmentation is as strict as you stated. The whole concept of the MCU, a shared universe, negates that. After all, not only did we have constant mentions of aliens and 'that guy with the hammer' in IM3, but they even included Bruce Banner in the movie, a guy who turns into green giant.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:10 PM   #36
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But the again, its a trailer for an action movie. You HAVE to show what the hero is up against. You need to introduce the audience to the villain and play up the threat. It couldnt be Killian that they advertised. There's really no way around it when you think about it.
But he wasn't up against him was he? Isn't it obvious why people are annoyed? Frankly if I was Marvel I would have made the Mandarin more of a mystery in the trailers, at least then it goes hand in hand with the twist. The thing is Marvel went to the extreme, played it up like it was going to be this epic clash when they shouldn't have because all they did was let fans down.


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Old 05-08-2013, 11:10 PM   #37
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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But the again, its a trailer for an action movie. You HAVE to show what the hero is up against. You need to introduce the audience to the villain and play up the threat. It couldnt be Killian that they advertised. There's really no way around it when you think about it.
Exactly.
That's how a switch works.

Wonder if the people who complain that they were sold a bill of goods also complained that the marketing for TDKR promised them that Bane was the main villain, or that BB promised that Ken Watanabe would play R'as al-Ghul, or pretty much *any* M. Night Shyamalan preview promised one thing and delivered something entirely different....?

Nah, guess it just works against Kevin Feige and Shane Black, the "only" guys who've ever been guilty of this.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:16 PM   #38
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Exactly.
That's how a switch works.

Wonder if the people who complain that they were sold a bill of goods also complained that the marketing for TDKR promised them that Bane was the main villain, or that BB promised that Ken Watanabe would play R'as al-Ghul, or pretty much *any* M. Night Shyamalan preview promised one thing and delivered something entirely different....?
Or MGS2 promising another epic adventure with Solid Snake

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:17 PM   #39
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Exactly.
That's how a switch works.

Wonder if the people who complain that they were sold a bill of goods also complained that the marketing for TDKR promised them that Bane was the main villain, or that BB promised that Ken Watanabe would play R'as al-Ghul, or pretty much *any* M. Night Shyamalan preview promised one thing and delivered something entirely different....?

Nah, guess it just works against Kevin Feige and Shane Black, the "only" guys who've ever been guilty of this.
In M. Night Shyamalan's defense, everything he's ever made is absolute sh**.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:22 PM   #40
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I love how every thread on the Hype has now become consumed with the complaining about the Mandarin. I checked this thread thinking it was a critique of the structure of the MCU, but, instead, another outlet for whining over a C-list character no one cared about until the time of the film's release.

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Old 05-09-2013, 12:09 AM   #41
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Exactly.
That's how a switch works.

Wonder if the people who complain that they were sold a bill of goods also complained that the marketing for TDKR promised them that Bane was the main villain, or that BB promised that Ken Watanabe would play R'as al-Ghul, or pretty much *any* M. Night Shyamalan preview promised one thing and delivered something entirely different....?

Nah, guess it just works against Kevin Feige and Shane Black, the "only" guys who've ever been guilty of this.
Psycho was horrible. I was promised a heist film with Janet Leigh!

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Old 05-09-2013, 05:04 AM   #42
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Seriously? People are crying about The Mandarin?!?!

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Old 05-09-2013, 05:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Psycho was horrible. I was promised a heist film with Janet Leigh!
This.

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:13 AM   #44
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Psycho was horrible. I was promised a heist film with Janet Leigh!
I brought my kids into Bridge to Terabithia expecting to see a fantasy movie... oops

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:20 AM   #45
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Oh my God. This has me cracking up.

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Old 05-09-2013, 11:34 AM   #46
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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Seriously? People are crying about The Mandarin?!?!
Yeah, I came into this thread expecting to pull out my "stop panicking over the rumors of contract disputes" boilerplate. Instead. . . more Mandarin complaints.

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Old 05-09-2013, 12:31 PM   #47
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

I gotta say, Killian was the MCU version of the Mandarin, that's true, the problem is this, the promised decoy Mandarin was a more interesting enemy than Killian, and that's the problem when you do these types of twists. I don't understand the critics saying he did an interesting for a comic book villain, know why? Because i've seen this type of twist in countless comic books.

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Old 05-09-2013, 01:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I gotta say, Killian was the MCU version of the Mandarin, that's true, the problem is this, the promised decoy Mandarin was a more interesting enemy than Killian, and that's the problem when you do these types of twists. I don't understand the critics saying he did an interesting for a comic book villain, know why? Because i've seen this type of twist in countless comic books.
I keep hearing this argument from the people who didn't like the twist...over and over again.

What exactly was so interesting about the decoy Mandarin?!

He was a cookie-cutter terrorist draped in robes and wearing rings. He hijacked the airwaves and spouted some anti-American sentiments a few times...and that was it.

How was that going to make for a more interesting villain than Killian; a guy who resents Stark for numerous reasons, who lead a terrorist organization from the shadows and behind decoys while simultaneously running a super-science think tank all for the purpose of owning and controlling a war on terror...oh and he's got badass Extremis powers like breathing fire and can chop Iron Man suits in half.

So...who's the more interesting villain again?

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Old 05-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #49
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

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I keep hearing this argument from the people who didn't like the twist...over and over again.

What exactly was so interesting about the decoy Mandarin?!

He was a cookie-cutter terrorist draped in robes and wearing rings. He hijacked the airwaves and spouted some anti-American sentiments a few times...and that was it.

How was that going to make for a more interesting villain than Killian; a guy who resents Stark for numerous reasons, who lead a terrorist organization from the shadows and behind decoys while simultaneously running a super-science think tank all for the purpose of owning and controlling a war on terror...oh and he's got badass Extremis powers like breathing fire and can chop Iron Man suits in half.

So...who's the more interesting villain again?
Kingsley.

Because his acting was substantially more thrilling. His voice, attitude, demeanor, stature. He was (for all we knew) killing hundreds of innocent people nonchalantly. For little to no reason.

Where as we had Killian, boring looking fellow, screaming about being The Mandarin like a little child who isn't allowed to have dessert. BUT MOM! I AM THE MANDARIN!"

Plus I dont know where you're getting "cookie cutter terrorist" I've never seen a real life terrorist that spoke or dressed like that. My word.

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Old 05-09-2013, 01:14 PM   #50
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Default Re: Dear Kevin Feige... please don't slowly turn Marvel Studios into Fox or Sony

Look the minute Aliens invaded New York led by a God which saw Iron man flying through a worm hole and detonating a Nuke in space to destroy the alien mothership. We pretty much accepted the crazy. I don't wanna hear how magic rings would have been so out their people couldn't accept it. Ecspecially since they were alien tech.

P.S. I enjoyed iron man 3

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