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Old 12-09-2013, 08:50 PM   #901
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Smith is the only one I would consider an objective journalist. Though I haven't seen enough of Wallace to really make a judgment.

I don't really know how an objective journalist can work at Fox News for long though. The vitriol is pretty damn toxic.
here's one of Chris Wallace's more famous exchanges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM1YaAwOPuQ

and here's a few that puts him in a more favorable light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wblHDPugVw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjjVLkq_g8I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4ytqDbK1w

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Old 12-11-2013, 03:24 PM   #902
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Here is Fox News at at best(and this is during Fox's "news hour" not Fox and Friends).


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Old 12-11-2013, 03:42 PM   #903
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Founded On Xenophobia

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Old 12-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #904
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Here is Fox News at at best(and this is during Fox's "news hour" not Fox and Friends).

Wow, I really couldn't think of three worse people to represent Catholicism, Atheism and Judaism.

Impressive, Fox News.

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Old 12-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #905
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Founded On Xenophobia
More like Rupert Murdoch saw an excellent business opportunity and made bank on it.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #906
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More like Rupert Murdoch saw an excellent business opportunity and made bank on it.
sort of like the nazis taking advantage of Germany's suffering economy.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #907
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Wow, I really couldn't think of three worse people to represent Catholicism, Atheism and Judaism.

Impressive, Fox News.
If nothing else Fox's annual War on Christmas reporting is good for laughs. I am guessing as funny as it is and as bad as it makes them look, it does well with the demographic they pander to.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:09 PM   #908
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Here is Fox News at at best(and this is during Fox's "news hour" not Fox and Friends).

I'm surprised a Stanford grad wouldn't know that Christmas borrows heavily from pagan holidays.

Maybe Carlson really is as dumb as she pretends to be.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:12 PM   #909
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I'm surprised a Stanford grad wouldn't know that Christmas borrows heavily from pagan holidays.

Maybe Carlson really is as dumb as she pretends to be.
I am guessing Fox news doesn't want it's viewers to know the true origins of Christmas and if one knows that plus the the history of Christmas in America they would realize how stupid the idea that their is a "War on Christmas". I could only imagine how our founding fathers would be attacked for hating Christmas if they let their views of the holiday be known to today's Fox News crowd.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:24 PM   #910
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sort of like the nazis taking advantage of Germany's suffering economy.
Oh please, you're acting like a pathetic joke. Do you seriously think that comparing Fox News to Nazi Germany is some kind of legitimate comparison? Rupert Murdoch saw the opportunity that people wanted news that skewed to the right and he saw the rise of CNN and put the two together. You can agree with Fox's political bias or not, but it's the simple fact that Murdoch had a brilliant business idea with Fox News.

And honestly, all those who complain about Fox News being heavily biased, should be complaining about the bias the MSNBC carries as well.....oh wait, people like you don't care about bias one bit, you only care that it's a bias that doesn't agree with you. And people like you act like jealous babies over the simple fact that Fox News is a freaking juggernaut compared to the other 24-hour news networks and other news media outlets.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:26 PM   #911
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I am guessing Fox news doesn't want it's viewers to know the true origins of Christmas and if one knows that plus the the history of Christmas in America they would realize how stupid the idea that their is a "War on Christmas". I could only imagine how our founding fathers would be attacked for hating Christmas if they let their views of the holiday be known to today's Fox News crowd.
Actually, the Founding Fathers would probably subscribe to the whole "War on Christmas" idea. Even though they were ardent believers in religious equality, they were still the kind of people who were supportive of public displays of worship.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:33 PM   #912
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Actually, the Founding Fathers would probably subscribe to the whole "War on Christmas" idea. Even though they were ardent believers in religious equality, they were still the kind of people who were supportive of public displays of worship.
Christmas was viewed as a holiday British people celebrated, so you can guess how that polled in the US. Beyond that it basically was treated as just another work day(say like most Jewish holidays today). Christmas wasn't officially a Holiday in the US till 1870 and the US Congress basically worked that day(with the exception when it feel on a weekend) till the 1830s. I really wouldn't consider that raving support for Christmas by the Federal Government.

It should also be noted in the War of Independence they used Dec 25 to attack the British, not very holiday like I would say.

Quote:
December 25-26, 1776 - On Christmas, George Washington takes 2400 of his men and recrosses the Delaware River. Washington then conducts a surprise raid on 1500 British-Hessians (German mercenaries) at Trenton, New Jersey. The Hessians surrender after an hour with nearly 1000 taken prisoner by Washington who suffers only six wounded (including future president Lt. James Monroe). Washington reoccupies Trenton. The victory provides a much needed boost to the morale of all American Patriots.
Even the Red Baron took Christmas off when he was fighting Snoopy


Last edited by SV Fan; 12-11-2013 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 12-11-2013, 04:34 PM   #913
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Considering Christmas was a minor holiday for most founding fathers (them being ex-Brits)... I doubt it. Christmas trees became a thing about a century after the Revolution. And it only became a holiday after the Civil War.

It really wasn't until the 20th century that Christmas became the monster it is today.

They'd probably find it a garish display with way too many pagan elements.

Well, Ben Franklin probably would have enjoyed that.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:36 PM   #914
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It should also be noted in the War of Independence they used Dec 25 to attack the British, not very holiday like I would say.
On German mercenaries who did practice it, no less. A lot of the modern-day American Christmas traditions come courtesy of German settlers.

Today attacking people on Christmas while they're celebrating would be, well considered a literal war on Christmas.

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Old 12-11-2013, 04:40 PM   #915
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Now if you want a true war on Christmas, I give you the Puritans in the 1600s(Massachusetts) who basically made it illegal to celebrate it. Now would Fox news label those guys anti-christian in today's world?

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Old 12-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #916
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Default Re: Discussion: FOX News II

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Actually, the Founding Fathers would probably subscribe to the whole "War on Christmas" idea. Even though they were ardent believers in religious equality, they were still the kind of people who were supportive of public displays of worship.

Washington Crosses the Deleware
(December 25-26, 1776)

Christmas was never celebrated like it is today during the time of the Founding fathers. In fact during the Revolutionary War in 1776, then general George Washington spent Christmas night with his army crossing the Delaware River. There are those who would even argue that the Founding Fathers would have been perplexed at the fuss we make about the public role of religion.

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Old 12-11-2013, 05:38 PM   #917
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Yeah we kind of covered that...

One hell of a painting though.

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Old 12-11-2013, 06:01 PM   #918
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Default Re: Discussion: FOX News II

So? Even though Washington used Christmas to attack the British, the Founding Fathers still celebrated it. They really didn't mind public displays of religion as long as everyone has been treated equally. Christmas itself wasn't the most important holiday to the Founding Fathers, but they were still in tune with the public mood in regards to religion, which today is actually quite pro-Chirstmas.

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Old 12-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #919
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So? Even though Washington used Christmas to attack the British, the Founding Fathers still celebrated it. They really didn't mind public displays of religion as long as everyone has been treated equally. Christmas itself wasn't the most important holiday to the Founding Fathers, but they were still in tune with the public mood in regards to religion, which today is actually quite pro-Chirstmas.
I think the basic point is for people who try push this whole idea of a War on Christmas as somehow stamping over an American tradition are full of crap. Much like most things in life people attitudes and traditions change with the times, in the case of Christmas as more immigrants came over who did celebrate Christmas, the bigger the day became as part of the American culture. Anybody who tries to pass off Christmas being a big part of the American heritage from day one are either idiots or knowingly pushing false ideas to try create a story and get attention.

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Old 12-11-2013, 06:57 PM   #920
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If you look at the history of Christmas in America, you would actually find that the most conservative of religions (puritans) were not huge on Christmas, in fact they outlawed it. As different groups began to immigrant to America they brought with them their ideas about Christmas and we now have a very multi-cultural look the Holiday Season. Some of it is religious, some of it is not....

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.
The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America’s new constitution. Christmas wasn’t declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
Washington Irving reinvents Christmas
It wasn’t until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday?

The early 19th century was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the city’s first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas was celebrated in America.


In 1819, best-selling author Washington Irving wrote The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon, gent., a series of stories about the celebration of Christmas in an English manor house. The sketches feature a squire who invited the peasants into his home for the holiday. In contrast to the problems faced in American society, the two groups mingled effortlessly. In Irving’s mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status.
Irving’s fictitious celebrants enjoyed “ancient customs,” including the crowning of a Lord of Misrule. Irving’s book, however, was not based on any holiday celebration he had attended—in fact, many historians say that Irving’s account actually “invented” tradition by implying that it described the true customs of the season.
Before the Civil War
The North and South were divided on the issue of Christmas, as well as on the question of slavery. Many Northerners saw sin in the celebration of Christmas; to these people the celebration of Thanksgiving was more appropriate. But in the South, Christmas was an important part of the social season. Not surprisingly, the first three states to make Christmas a legal holiday were in the South: Alabama in 1836, Louisiana and Arkansas in 1838.

In the years after the Civil War, Christmas traditions spread across the country. Children's books played an important role in spreading the customs of celebrating Christmas, especially the tradition of trimmed trees and gifts delivered by Santa Claus. Sunday school classes encouraged the celebration of Christmas. Women's magazines were also very important in suggesting ways to decorate for the holidays, as well as how to make these decorations.

By the last quarter of the nineteenth century, America eagerly decorated trees, caroled, baked, and shopped for the Christmas season. Since that time, materialism, media, advertising, and mass marketing has made Christmas what it is today. The traditions that we enjoy at Christmas today were invented by blending together customs from many different countries into what is considered by many to be our national holiday.



A semi short history...

An overview:
1600's: The Puritans made it illegal to mention St. Nicolas' name. People were not allowed to exchange gifts, light a candle, or sing Christmas carols.
17th century: Dutch immigrants brought with them the legend of Sinter Klaas.
1773: Santa first appeared in the media as St. A Claus.
1804: The New York Historical Society was founded with St. Nicolas as its patron saint. Its members engaged in the Dutch practice of gift-giving at Christmas.
1809: Washington Irving, writing under the pseudonym Diedrich Knickerbocker, included Saint Nicolas in his book "A History of New York." Nicolas is described as riding into town on a horse.
1812: Irving, revised his book to include Nicolas riding over the trees in a wagon.
1821: William Gilley printed a poem about "Santeclaus" who was dressed in fur and drove a sleigh drawn by a single reindeer.
1822: Dentist Clement Clarke Moore is believed by many to have written a poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicolas," which became better known as "The Night before Christmas." Santa is portrayed as an elf with a miniature sleigh equipped with eight reindeer which are named in the poem as Blitzem, Comet, Cupid, Dancer, Dasher, Donder, Prancer, and Vixen. Others attribute the poem to a contemporary, Henry Livingston, Jr. Two have since been renamed Donner and Blitzen.
1841: J.W. Parkinson, a Philadelphia merchant, hired a man to dress up in a "Criscringle" outfit and climb the chimney of his store.
1863: Illustrator Thomas Nast created images of Santa for the Christmas editions of Harper's Magazine. These continued through the 1890's.
1860s: President Abraham Lincoln asked Nast to create a drawing of Santa with some Union soldiers. This image of Santa supporting the enemy had a demoralizing influence on the Confederate army -- an early example of psychological warfare.
1897: Francis P Church, Editor of the New York Sun, wrote an editorial in response to a letter from an eight year-old girl, Virginia O'Hanlon. She had written the paper asking whether there really was a Santa Claus. It has become known as the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter. 4
1920's: The image of Santa had been standardized to portray a bearded, over-weight, jolly man dressed in a red suit with white trim. 5
1931: Haddon Sundblom, illustrator for The Coca-Cola ™ company drew a series of Santa images in their Christmas advertisements until 1964. The company holds the trademark for the Coca-Cola Santa design. Christmas ads including Santa continue to the present day.

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:09 PM   #921
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Default Re: Discussion: FOX News II

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So? Even though Washington used Christmas to attack the British, the Founding Fathers still celebrated it. They really didn't mind public displays of religion as long as everyone has been treated equally. Christmas itself wasn't the most important holiday to the Founding Fathers, but they were still in tune with the public mood in regards to religion, which today is actually quite pro-Chirstmas.
They celebrated it about as much as you "celebrate"... Good Friday?

Today's Christmas has very little to do with religion. It's all about materialism, TV specials, and Santa Claus.

Hell, even when I was religious I found it a garish, hollow charade of a holiday pretending to be something it isn't - a religious holiday.

I'm with the Puritans on this one.

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:10 PM   #922
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Before the Civil War
The North and South were divided on the issue of Christmas, as well as on the question of slavery. Many Northerners saw sin in the celebration of Christmas; to these people the celebration of Thanksgiving was more appropriate. But in the South, Christmas was an important part of the social season. Not surprisingly, the first three states to make Christmas a legal holiday were in the South: Alabama in 1836, Louisiana and Arkansas in 1838
.
So the South can claim victory in the Civil War for Christmas

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Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I'm with the Puritans on this one.
I have to agree as much as they were prudes, I do think they had a good understanding what the holiday was about. if only they could see what has become of their beloved Massachusetts today. lol

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:11 PM   #923
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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
If you look at the history of Christmas in America, you would actually find that the most conservative of religions (puritans) were not huge on Christmas, in fact they outlawed it. As different groups began to immigrant to America they brought with them their ideas about Christmas and we now have a very multi-cultural look the Holiday Season. Some of it is religious, some of it is not....

In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand, Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the popular holiday.
The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in 1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all and passed without incident.
After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America’s new constitution. Christmas wasn’t declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
Washington Irving reinvents Christmas
It wasn’t until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday?

The early 19th century was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the city’s first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas was celebrated in America.


In 1819, best-selling author Washington Irving wrote The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon, gent., a series of stories about the celebration of Christmas in an English manor house. The sketches feature a squire who invited the peasants into his home for the holiday. In contrast to the problems faced in American society, the two groups mingled effortlessly. In Irving’s mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status.
Irving’s fictitious celebrants enjoyed “ancient customs,” including the crowning of a Lord of Misrule. Irving’s book, however, was not based on any holiday celebration he had attended—in fact, many historians say that Irving’s account actually “invented” tradition by implying that it described the true customs of the season.
Before the Civil War
The North and South were divided on the issue of Christmas, as well as on the question of slavery. Many Northerners saw sin in the celebration of Christmas; to these people the celebration of Thanksgiving was more appropriate. But in the South, Christmas was an important part of the social season. Not surprisingly, the first three states to make Christmas a legal holiday were in the South: Alabama in 1836, Louisiana and Arkansas in 1838.

In the years after the Civil War, Christmas traditions spread across the country. Children's books played an important role in spreading the customs of celebrating Christmas, especially the tradition of trimmed trees and gifts delivered by Santa Claus. Sunday school classes encouraged the celebration of Christmas. Women's magazines were also very important in suggesting ways to decorate for the holidays, as well as how to make these decorations.

By the last quarter of the nineteenth century, America eagerly decorated trees, caroled, baked, and shopped for the Christmas season. Since that time, materialism, media, advertising, and mass marketing has made Christmas what it is today. The traditions that we enjoy at Christmas today were invented by blending together customs from many different countries into what is considered by many to be our national holiday.



A semi short history...

An overview:
1600's: The Puritans made it illegal to mention St. Nicolas' name. People were not allowed to exchange gifts, light a candle, or sing Christmas carols.
17th century: Dutch immigrants brought with them the legend of Sinter Klaas.
1773: Santa first appeared in the media as St. A Claus.
1804: The New York Historical Society was founded with St. Nicolas as its patron saint. Its members engaged in the Dutch practice of gift-giving at Christmas.
1809: Washington Irving, writing under the pseudonym Diedrich Knickerbocker, included Saint Nicolas in his book "A History of New York." Nicolas is described as riding into town on a horse.
1812: Irving, revised his book to include Nicolas riding over the trees in a wagon.
1821: William Gilley printed a poem about "Santeclaus" who was dressed in fur and drove a sleigh drawn by a single reindeer.
1822: Dentist Clement Clarke Moore is believed by many to have written a poem "An Account of a Visit from Saint Nicolas," which became better known as "The Night before Christmas." Santa is portrayed as an elf with a miniature sleigh equipped with eight reindeer which are named in the poem as Blitzem, Comet, Cupid, Dancer, Dasher, Donder, Prancer, and Vixen. Others attribute the poem to a contemporary, Henry Livingston, Jr. Two have since been renamed Donner and Blitzen.
1841: J.W. Parkinson, a Philadelphia merchant, hired a man to dress up in a "Criscringle" outfit and climb the chimney of his store.
1863: Illustrator Thomas Nast created images of Santa for the Christmas editions of Harper's Magazine. These continued through the 1890's.
1860s: President Abraham Lincoln asked Nast to create a drawing of Santa with some Union soldiers. This image of Santa supporting the enemy had a demoralizing influence on the Confederate army -- an early example of psychological warfare.
1897: Francis P Church, Editor of the New York Sun, wrote an editorial in response to a letter from an eight year-old girl, Virginia O'Hanlon. She had written the paper asking whether there really was a Santa Claus. It has become known as the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter. 4
1920's: The image of Santa had been standardized to portray a bearded, over-weight, jolly man dressed in a red suit with white trim. 5
1931: Haddon Sundblom, illustrator for The Coca-Cola ™ company drew a series of Santa images in their Christmas advertisements until 1964. The company holds the trademark for the Coca-Cola Santa design. Christmas ads including Santa continue to the present day.
This wouldn't be bad for my next research paper...

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:41 PM   #924
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Default Re: Discussion: FOX News II

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I think the basic point is for people who try push this whole idea of a War on Christmas as somehow stamping over an American tradition are full of crap. Much like most things in life people attitudes and traditions change with the times, in the case of Christmas as more immigrants came over who did celebrate Christmas, the bigger the day became as part of the American culture. Anybody who tries to pass off Christmas being a big part of the American heritage from day one are either idiots or knowingly pushing false ideas to try create a story and get attention.
The reason why there is this "war on Christmas" is because we have a very loud and obnoxious minority who act as if there can be no public displays of Christmas celebrations. There is really no reason for sayings like "Merry Christmas" to go out of style for "Happy Holidays" or for people to ***** and moan if there is a nativity display on public property. There is really nothing wrong with these harmless acts of celebration. I remember back in high school we weren't allowed to have a Christmas tree on display unless there was a menorah to go along with it (even though there were no Jewish people in my school).

It's what really irks me about people who moan about these things give fuel to this "war on Christmas" rhetoric when there really shouldn't be any to begin with.

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Old 12-11-2013, 07:48 PM   #925
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I don't necessarily see "happy holidays" as an attack on Christmas, so much as an effort to be more inclusive (there is another major religious holiday occurring around the same time). Granted, that effort is probably entirely commercially driven, but, it's distinct.

Holiday trees on the other hand...

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