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Old 03-05-2014, 02:50 AM   #526
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

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Hello! First post here, so it might be a long one. I have a pretty long history with Spider-Man, and it really goes back to the 90's when I was 6 or 7 years old. I would watch the old animated tv-show as well as collecting the comic books. I remember when the first movie came out, and I had never been more excited for a movie. 12 years later and I'm still very much into superhero movies, but I would say Spider-Man will always be my favorite.

These last three days I decided to rewatch the whole Raimi trilogy. I hadn't seen them all in years, maybe not since the time around Spider-Man 3 coming out. Rewatching the movies, a wave of nostalgia as well as appreciation for these movies came over me. I forgot how much I loved these movies, and just how good they were. I even really enjoyed the third one, which I remember not being too warm on initially, but I guess hyperbole, time and internet makes you remember things differently. Anyhow, here's some of my thoughts on the movies:

Spider-Man

I would call this an excellent origin-story. One problem I have with many superhero movies is that the origin-movies often feel disjointed. The hero gets his powers and learns to use them, and then some random enemy shows up and that's that. What I like about this story is that Green Goblin is a very natural enemy to the story. You get to know Norman from Peter's perspective and he becomes a natural enemy within the movie. I feel like it flows quite nicely. Green Goblin is a great enemy for the first movie, even though a tiny bit of criticism for me personally would be the characterization of him, as well as the look of him. Norman in the comics was never really a nice person sucked into his creation, he was pretty power mad and a dangerous opponent even before he got his powers. But I can see why they would change him for the movie.

One popular topic has always been Kirsten Dunst as Mary Jane. There are people who really like her, and people who hates her. Me myself, I love her. I just think she fits perfectly, and the chemistry with Tobey is really nice. And that's one of the reasons why I think the Spider-Man movies worked so well. The emotional core with Peter wanting Mary Jane, but all these things getting in the way, it's a great story and Raimi knows how to tell it well. Action-wise I would say the first movie is probably the weakest out of the three. It's used appropriately and when needed, but when you break it down it's more a story about responsibility, love and growing up. A little bit of a missed opportunity that there wasn't more aerial fights between Spidey and Goblin, but this movie more than well stands on its own feet, and is a really good movie.

Spider-Man 2

The general fan favorite, and I will have to agree. I would say that this is the best paced movie in the trilogy, and in terms of structure I would call it perfect. Some people might argue about the lack of action in the first hour or so, but I give that a pass. Again, the emotional core really is the focus of the movie, and the action is a bonus. I just love how this movie plays out. Peter is having a really hard time balancing his two lives, and the movie asks a great question in terms of "Would you give up everything in your life to help others?", and it really leads to a compelling story. Performance-wise I think everyone brings it, and Alfred Molina gives the arguably strongest villain-performance in the trilogy. JK Simmons delivers a lot of gold in this one, probably his funniest performance out of the three.

It's hard to bring up any weak points, because for me it's almost perfect. It started to get a little cheesier, and I could live without scenes like the one on the train when everybody steps between Doctor Octopus and Spidey, with the notion that he has to go through them first. Raimi has a couple of scenes like that in all three movies, and I find them a little corny personally. What I love the most about the movie is the satisfying feeling it leaves you with. The first movie ending was a bit of a bummer, because you wanted Peter to get Mary Jane, and he didn't. This movie ends better, and after the hell he has to go through, he deserves that happy ending.

Spider-Man 3


I actually really enjoyed this last viewing, way more than I expected. I remember being slightly disappointed when it came out, but I guess it's easy to fall victim of internet hyperbole. I would say that this is actually a pretty good movie and a solid closer to the trilogy. I think there are problems, but for me, many of the problems are smaller ones. I've seen people say "It sucks because it has too many villains". To me, a movie with three villains COULD work. It could work, and it could be amazing. But the Raimi-movies where never ABOUT the villains. If you look at the first and the second, both Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus are obstacles that Peter face, but in the heart and soul, both movies are about Peter and his life, and how being Spider-Man affects it. So to me, the reason it doesn't work is because Raimi's movies are about the emotional core and not the villains themselves. When you have that in mind and you try to do it anyways with 3 villains, it's not gonna work.

I read some hate for Mary Jane in this movie, but I disagree. I think she acts quite rationally throughout the whole movie. In the beginning of the movie, Peter is kinda full of himself and quite the douchebag. He's not very sensitive, and even if she doesn't share everything to him, he still comes off as very clumsy. Drawing parallels to him being Spider-Man is not the right way to go when he is trying to comfort her. I would also say the Gwen-kiss thing is clumsy, as well as most of the stuff he says at the restaurant. I think if you blame Mary Jane for the relationship leading to a break up, you must have been biased, because Peter deserves a lot of the blame.

One of my problems with SM3 is that the way they decided to go with the love story. After the ending of SM2 that left you with a warm feeling, with these characters finally getting each other, we get a movie when they fight and break up. Couldn't they just have been happy? For me personally, they should have left out the whole Gwen part, instead made Peter propose in the first half of the film, and maybe have ended it with the wedding or both of them still being very happy. Since more sequels were planned, I could see why they wouldn't use the wedding already, but I think it could have been a nice touch.

As for the enemies, I like them all separately, but in order to squeeze in all of them, you can tell that they suffer as a result. Harry getting revenge as a new Goblin, that story deserves its own movie. Venom and the symbiote, that deserves its own movie. Sandman, a lot could have been done there, in its own movie. The retcon with Sandman being the killer for Uncle Ben was quite silly and unnecessary imo. A few other negatives for me would be the Emo Peter Parker (which is just hilarious) as well as even more cheesy patriotism at the end. The newscaster-stuff doesn't bother me that much, but that ONE shot when Spidey runs in front of an american flag kinda does.

But lastly (and I want to finish, because this write-up is getting long), I do think the third one is much better than it gets credit for. It might still be the weakest out of the three, but I really liked it. For me it has the best action sequences of the three movies, it has the best Bruce Campbell cameo, and I think it has strong performances throughout. I was skeptical about Topher Grace, but I think he does a great job. Same goes for Thomas Haden Church as Sandman. And has Kirsten Dunst looked better as Mary Jane? Apart from being a cluster***** of a movie, the main negative impression that sticks with me after the movie is "too much of too little". I really loved many of the ideas they had with Sandman, I liked Harry wanting revenge, and I love Venom. So the problem for me is that by cramming too much into the same movie, none of these stories were as good as they could have been. Still, people calling this the "worst superhero movie", really? It has problems, and some pretty laughably bad stuff like Emo Peter Parker, but it also has redeeming qualities.

Anyhow, in case anyone read all of that, I applaud you. Just some thoughts after seeing the trilogy again.
And now I have a major crush on Kirsten Dunst again. She has the ultimate "girl next door" look.
Excellent first post, welcome to the Hype!

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Old 03-05-2014, 12:22 PM   #527
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:35 PM   #528
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I've thought about this, and I think that a much better team up would have been between Sandman and Harry!Goblin. Harry is still pissed off at Peter for blowing half his face up, and he would have enough money to help Sandy's daughter. He could use an ally since the last two times he fought Spidey he lost hard. He would use Mary Jane as bait, and maybe she'll get hurt making him realize that he shouldn't be a villain (This might be too similar to Peter punching MJ, but I think Peter should have taken off the suit after almost blowing up Harry). He'd then try to make up with Peter, and give Sandy the money is daughter needs, and Venom would be a villain in Spider-Man 4.

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Old 03-07-2014, 11:05 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Zantera View Post
Hello! First post here, so it might be a long one. I have a pretty long history with Spider-Man, and it really goes back to the 90's when I was 6 or 7 years old. I would watch the old animated tv-show as well as collecting the comic books. I remember when the first movie came out, and I had never been more excited for a movie. 12 years later and I'm still very much into superhero movies, but I would say Spider-Man will always be my favorite.

These last three days I decided to rewatch the whole Raimi trilogy. I hadn't seen them all in years, maybe not since the time around Spider-Man 3 coming out. Rewatching the movies, a wave of nostalgia as well as appreciation for these movies came over me. I forgot how much I loved these movies, and just how good they were. I even really enjoyed the third one, which I remember not being too warm on initially, but I guess hyperbole, time and internet makes you remember things differently. Anyhow, here's some of my thoughts on the movies:

Spider-Man

I would call this an excellent origin-story. One problem I have with many superhero movies is that the origin-movies often feel disjointed. The hero gets his powers and learns to use them, and then some random enemy shows up and that's that. What I like about this story is that Green Goblin is a very natural enemy to the story. You get to know Norman from Peter's perspective and he becomes a natural enemy within the movie. I feel like it flows quite nicely. Green Goblin is a great enemy for the first movie, even though a tiny bit of criticism for me personally would be the characterization of him, as well as the look of him. Norman in the comics was never really a nice person sucked into his creation, he was pretty power mad and a dangerous opponent even before he got his powers. But I can see why they would change him for the movie.

One popular topic has always been Kirsten Dunst as Mary Jane. There are people who really like her, and people who hates her. Me myself, I love her. I just think she fits perfectly, and the chemistry with Tobey is really nice. And that's one of the reasons why I think the Spider-Man movies worked so well. The emotional core with Peter wanting Mary Jane, but all these things getting in the way, it's a great story and Raimi knows how to tell it well. Action-wise I would say the first movie is probably the weakest out of the three. It's used appropriately and when needed, but when you break it down it's more a story about responsibility, love and growing up. A little bit of a missed opportunity that there wasn't more aerial fights between Spidey and Goblin, but this movie more than well stands on its own feet, and is a really good movie.

Spider-Man 2

The general fan favorite, and I will have to agree. I would say that this is the best paced movie in the trilogy, and in terms of structure I would call it perfect. Some people might argue about the lack of action in the first hour or so, but I give that a pass. Again, the emotional core really is the focus of the movie, and the action is a bonus. I just love how this movie plays out. Peter is having a really hard time balancing his two lives, and the movie asks a great question in terms of "Would you give up everything in your life to help others?", and it really leads to a compelling story. Performance-wise I think everyone brings it, and Alfred Molina gives the arguably strongest villain-performance in the trilogy. JK Simmons delivers a lot of gold in this one, probably his funniest performance out of the three.

It's hard to bring up any weak points, because for me it's almost perfect. It started to get a little cheesier, and I could live without scenes like the one on the train when everybody steps between Doctor Octopus and Spidey, with the notion that he has to go through them first. Raimi has a couple of scenes like that in all three movies, and I find them a little corny personally. What I love the most about the movie is the satisfying feeling it leaves you with. The first movie ending was a bit of a bummer, because you wanted Peter to get Mary Jane, and he didn't. This movie ends better, and after the hell he has to go through, he deserves that happy ending.

Spider-Man 3


I actually really enjoyed this last viewing, way more than I expected. I remember being slightly disappointed when it came out, but I guess it's easy to fall victim of internet hyperbole. I would say that this is actually a pretty good movie and a solid closer to the trilogy. I think there are problems, but for me, many of the problems are smaller ones. I've seen people say "It sucks because it has too many villains". To me, a movie with three villains COULD work. It could work, and it could be amazing. But the Raimi-movies where never ABOUT the villains. If you look at the first and the second, both Green Goblin and Doctor Octopus are obstacles that Peter face, but in the heart and soul, both movies are about Peter and his life, and how being Spider-Man affects it. So to me, the reason it doesn't work is because Raimi's movies are about the emotional core and not the villains themselves. When you have that in mind and you try to do it anyways with 3 villains, it's not gonna work.

I read some hate for Mary Jane in this movie, but I disagree. I think she acts quite rationally throughout the whole movie. In the beginning of the movie, Peter is kinda full of himself and quite the douchebag. He's not very sensitive, and even if she doesn't share everything to him, he still comes off as very clumsy. Drawing parallels to him being Spider-Man is not the right way to go when he is trying to comfort her. I would also say the Gwen-kiss thing is clumsy, as well as most of the stuff he says at the restaurant. I think if you blame Mary Jane for the relationship leading to a break up, you must have been biased, because Peter deserves a lot of the blame.

One of my problems with SM3 is that the way they decided to go with the love story. After the ending of SM2 that left you with a warm feeling, with these characters finally getting each other, we get a movie when they fight and break up. Couldn't they just have been happy? For me personally, they should have left out the whole Gwen part, instead made Peter propose in the first half of the film, and maybe have ended it with the wedding or both of them still being very happy. Since more sequels were planned, I could see why they wouldn't use the wedding already, but I think it could have been a nice touch.

As for the enemies, I like them all separately, but in order to squeeze in all of them, you can tell that they suffer as a result. Harry getting revenge as a new Goblin, that story deserves its own movie. Venom and the symbiote, that deserves its own movie. Sandman, a lot could have been done there, in its own movie. The retcon with Sandman being the killer for Uncle Ben was quite silly and unnecessary imo. A few other negatives for me would be the Emo Peter Parker (which is just hilarious) as well as even more cheesy patriotism at the end. The newscaster-stuff doesn't bother me that much, but that ONE shot when Spidey runs in front of an american flag kinda does.

But lastly (and I want to finish, because this write-up is getting long), I do think the third one is much better than it gets credit for. It might still be the weakest out of the three, but I really liked it. For me it has the best action sequences of the three movies, it has the best Bruce Campbell cameo, and I think it has strong performances throughout. I was skeptical about Topher Grace, but I think he does a great job. Same goes for Thomas Haden Church as Sandman. And has Kirsten Dunst looked better as Mary Jane? Apart from being a cluster***** of a movie, the main negative impression that sticks with me after the movie is "too much of too little". I really loved many of the ideas they had with Sandman, I liked Harry wanting revenge, and I love Venom. So the problem for me is that by cramming too much into the same movie, none of these stories were as good as they could have been. Still, people calling this the "worst superhero movie", really? It has problems, and some pretty laughably bad stuff like Emo Peter Parker, but it also has redeeming qualities.

Anyhow, in case anyone read all of that, I applaud you. Just some thoughts after seeing the trilogy again.
And now I have a major crush on Kirsten Dunst again. She has the ultimate "girl next door" look.
Great write up! I agree with a lot of what you said

SM3 gets way more hatred than it deserves. I actually like the movie! It's not great, but I think it is good. I think it suffers from SM2 being way better (and SM2 is still one of my 3 favorite CBMs). Going from that amazing film, to a good but not great one I think makes SM3 look worse than it is.

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Old 03-08-2014, 03:17 AM   #530
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Yes, the third one having the tough job of following the second certainly affected things. I think it's safe to say that Raimi with 100% control would have made another strong Spider-Man film, but the studio and other producers wanted this and that, and Raimi was forced to make certain changes.

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Old 03-08-2014, 06:49 AM   #531
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In a way, there's also the fans to blame, the producers wouldn't have forced and shoe horned Venom if there wasn't for the constant request from fans.

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Old 03-08-2014, 08:49 AM   #532
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

The scene where Doc Ock storms the train after Spidey has stopped it, and the train passengers step in front of him and try to protect him from Ock, and Ock just smiles evilly and smashes them all out of the way was one of the most bad ass moments of the trilogy.

It was like an apology for that awful part in SM-1 where Goblin just stood there and let the people on the bridge protect Spidey by throwing trash and hurl verbal abuse at him. He should have flown up there and dropped a couple of pumpkin bombs on them!

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Old 03-08-2014, 10:01 AM   #533
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

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In a way, there's also the fans to blame, the producers wouldn't have forced and shoe horned Venom if there wasn't for the constant request from fans.
While I see your point, I don't agree. It's up to the studio and the people behind the movie to make the movie as good as it can be. They should not cave in for what fans want, and they should stand firm in their decisions. Fans like to make up their mind early on what they want to see from a movie, and they are often very fast at dismissing things that don't fit with their view. I think it's up to the studio to make the movie as good as it could possibly be, and try to ignore the loudest fans.

Fans don't always know what will work or not, and sometimes you need to see the result in order to appreciate it. Input from fans can certainly be valuable, but you should not change your entire movie because of it. Something like the Spidey-costume getting criticism from people and they change the costume slightly for the next movie is a situation when fan criticism could be very helpful, and it's also a smaller detail that doesn't change the movie. But when you start changing the script to shoehorn a certain character into a story, it just won't be good.

So I don't think it's the fans fault. As a fan, there will always be something you WANT to see, but it's still in the hands of the studio, and it's their responsibility to make a good movie.

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Old 03-08-2014, 01:30 PM   #534
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In a way, there's also the fans to blame, the producers wouldn't have forced and shoe horned Venom if there wasn't for the constant request from fans.
Well, even if Raimi didn't like Venom, he's Spider-Man #3 enemy, so he should have been prepared. I do think Venom should have been introduced in Spider-Man 4, because it was completely rushed in SM3 (Sandman and Harry's storylines didn't help), and the Black Suit takes enough time.

IIRC Raimi's original idea was the have Vulture in the final battle, which would have made the film just as crowded.

If Raimi didn't like the comic book Venom, he could have simply changed him enough to suit his likings. Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 was much less of a d-bag than his comic or cartoon counterpart, and he's my favorite version of Doc.

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Old 03-08-2014, 07:39 PM   #535
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In a way, there's also the fans to blame, the producers wouldn't have forced and shoe horned Venom if there wasn't for the constant request from fans.
And then again Venom didn't have to suck just because Raimi didn't know him very much.

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Old 03-08-2014, 10:17 PM   #536
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And then again Venom didn't have to suck just because Raimi didn't know him very much.
Agreed. Raimi agreed to include Venom and the symbiote into the script and he most likely had enough time to write and prepare a proper screenplay,and they(the writers included)still messed it up. I had a funny feeling that while Raimi didn't butcher the character on purpose,I don't think he went out of his way to understand or even care about Venom. That was a huge mistake. It's like his main focus of the film was the love triangle between Peter,MJ and Harry when it should've been the symbiote,Peter's inner demons and Venom.

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Old 03-09-2014, 08:33 AM   #537
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Meh. I think the symbiote origins and stuff were poorly handled. As were Venom and Sandman teaming up and such. But, Black suit Spidey I loved, and I don't think Venom was as bad as advertised. I think he could easily have worked in that 1 action sequence if Brock himself had a bit more development, the Sandman/Venom team-up was cleaner, and the symbiote just didn't land next to Peter randomly. Which, honestly wouldn't have required much screentime. We know a scene with Brock and Gwen was cut. Also there was an alternate Sandman/Venom team-up scene. These alone likely make Venom better.

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The scene where Doc Ock storms the train after Spidey has stopped it, and the train passengers step in front of him and try to protect him from Ock, and Ock just smiles evilly and smashes them all out of the way was one of the most bad ass moments of the trilogy.

It was like an apology for that awful part in SM-1 where Goblin just stood there and let the people on the bridge protect Spidey by throwing trash and hurl verbal abuse at him. He should have flown up there and dropped a couple of pumpkin bombs on them!
Absolutely agree here! It begins as a very cliche' moment, but Ock actually making them move was a very nice twist on that cliche', as as an awesome Doc Ock moment

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Old 03-14-2014, 03:42 PM   #538
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My latest sculpture celebrates my favourite superhero trilogy


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Old 03-14-2014, 08:11 PM   #539
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That's terrifyingly cute

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Old 03-15-2014, 10:06 AM   #540
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:42 AM   #541
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Great sculpture.

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Old 03-15-2014, 12:25 PM   #542
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Mini Marvels figure Tobey
I like it

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Old 03-15-2014, 12:38 PM   #543
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That's awesome! Makes me wish that Raimi Spider-man items were still being released today. I'd love a Doc Ock and Venom bobblehead from parts 2 and 3.

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Old 03-15-2014, 02:32 PM   #544
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Cheers guys! There's more pics and other characters on my facebook if anyone wants to check them out.

Yeah I wish there was more merch from Raimi's series too. Really want that Hot Toys Black suit Spidey. That is just killer, but I can't afford that kind of prcie tag.

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Old 03-15-2014, 06:25 PM   #545
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Yeah, maybe if I win the lottery, I can get that bad boy, until then...

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Old 03-16-2014, 09:10 PM   #546
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

Get it. It's a must have for any Raimi/Tobey fan!


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Old 03-17-2014, 01:20 AM   #547
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

I really love alot of the Spider-man statues and figures that have come from Japan. I believe the company is called Kotobukiya. I have a few of their Spider-man 3 statues. The detail is amazing!

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Old 03-17-2014, 01:41 AM   #548
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

I freakin' love Kotobukiya. They have a GL and Batman statue I want.

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Old 03-17-2014, 09:26 PM   #549
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil View Post
I freakin' love Kotobukiya. They have a GL and Batman statue I want.
They do such great work. Hard to find in the States though. This is the one Spidey 3 statue I'm missing:


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Old 03-17-2014, 09:29 PM   #550
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Default Re: The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Pa

I have always wanted that one.

I have NEVER seen this for sale anywhere.


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