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Old 06-19-2017, 10:38 AM   #851
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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Sony's desire for a Venom movie has been baffling to me for years. Venom is a 90's villain that no-one cares about anymore. Sony want to have their cake and eat it too, yet they don't have the talent behind their doors to pull it off. If they had any sense they would leave the Spidey-verse to Marvel, put their feet up on the desk and watch their bank accounts get fuller. Easiest payday in the world. I'm convinced it's come down to nothing more than pride now, that they are too proud to admit they have no idea what they are doing and that the character is better off with Marvel than it is with them.
I think you could make a good Venom movie, honestly. Why not? We live in a world where there are good movies about talking raccoons and trees. While I never really liked venom being turned in an anti-hero in the '90s comics (his popularity has waned since the 2000s particularly, ahem, after SM3), it could be done as a good film. Hell, it wouldn't have to be that far removed from Logan, except making Eddie even more reprehensible.

However, do I think Sony will do it well? Not at all. This reeks of desperation in making their own Deadpool. And it will probably backfire enormously in the same way the second Garfield movie failed in spectacular fashion when it tried to be a mini-MCU universe in one film. No thanks.

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Old 06-19-2017, 10:46 AM   #852
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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I agree on Gadot, I don't really see why she's getting quite so much praise as she is. She's good enough to play the lead in this movie, which I do consider a win given my fears after BvS, but she's uneven in her performance and quite visibly of lower quality than actors like Pine or Nielsen. Her line delivery is spotty at times and in other times her emoting lacks subtlety so everything is too big to feel as real. What she has going for her is that she's naturally charming so she works clearly the best when she smiles and is happy.

She's not a negative for the movie at all, but I do feel that she's probably the worst actor that plays a major superhero (not so much knocking her but praising the standard), but somehow she gets more praise than many of them. It could of course just be me viewing things differently, but I still have a hard time seeing the same amount of praise if this movie features Hercules instead (as I saw someone pointing out elsewhere).

I also agree that Themyscira was clearly the best part of the movie and I do want to go back there in a sequel.
I will just say that she is probably a better actor than Henry Cavill from what I can tell. Then again, maybe Cavill would do better with a better written character, so it is hard to say.

I do agree that her bigger emotional scenes are her weakest moments, but her charisma and affability let her embody what I think audiences *expect Wonder Woman to be. That is why she gets compared to Reeve. As I said before, folks forget he was not a great actor. There have been many better actors to plays superheroes like Downey, Bale, Jackman, and McAvoy. But Reeve simply embodied without an ounce of irony or self-awareness the earnest ideal these DC characters in particular represent. Not even with the winking, smiling self-deprecation of the CW TV shows. That goes a long way, and I think Gadot pulled off something similar in spite of her limitations.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:03 AM   #853
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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I will just say that she is probably a better actor than Henry Cavill from what I can tell. Then again, maybe Cavill would do better with a better written character, so it is hard to say.

I do agree that her bigger emotional scenes are her weakest moments, but her charisma and affability let her embody what I think audiences *expect Wonder Woman to be. That is why she gets compared to Reeve. As I said before, folks forget he was not a great actor. There have been many better actors to plays superheroes like Downey, Bale, Jackman, and McAvoy. But Reeve simply embodied without an ounce of irony or self-awareness the earnest ideal these DC characters in particular represent. Not even with the winking, smiling self-deprecation of the CW TV shows. That goes a long way, and I think Gadot pulled off something similar in spite of her limitations.
How do you evaluate scenes such as the one where she sees a baby and the one where she enjoys her ice cream?

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:09 AM   #854
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

I get what DACrowe is saying. To compare, Arnold might not be the best actor, but I would be disappointed if I had to live in a parallel world where Arnold never was the Terminator.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:22 AM   #855
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I will just say that she is probably a better actor than Henry Cavill from what I can tell. Then again, maybe Cavill would do better with a better written character, so it is hard to say.

I do agree that her bigger emotional scenes are her weakest moments, but her charisma and affability let her embody what I think audiences *expect Wonder Woman to be. That is why she gets compared to Reeve. As I said before, folks forget he was not a great actor. There have been many better actors to plays superheroes like Downey, Bale, Jackman, and McAvoy. But Reeve simply embodied without an ounce of irony or self-awareness the earnest ideal these DC characters in particular represent. Not even with the winking, smiling self-deprecation of the CW TV shows. That goes a long way, and I think Gadot pulled off something similar in spite of her limitations.
I haven't really seen that much of Cavill, but I don't think I noticed any direct flaws in MoS with his performance, it was just that it wasn't really the Superman I expected. From what I've heard he's better in other works, so that's why I put him above.

But as said, she is a charming person and it's probably a good comparison to Reeve, although he's extra extra iconic since he was first and so much earlier than when other good superhero movies came around. As said it's just surprise over the amount of praise, but really I'm happy that she was good enough to lead the movie. That certainly wasn't a given beforehand.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:35 AM   #856
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

The DCEU has a problem — everybody likes Wonder Woman
https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...justice-league

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:41 AM   #857
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I gotta agree with most sentiments. The parts with the german duo and ares were really meh and just dragged the movie down. The chemistry between pine and gadot made the movie imo. Otherwise it was pretty much just like any other movie.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:43 AM   #858
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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How do you evaluate scenes such as the one where she sees a baby and the one where she enjoys her ice cream?
I think she is great in the ice cream scene. Plays it marvelously as both naive but not ignorant or laughable, just more innocent. She also is playing well off Pine there. Actually the "a baby" line is one of the few beyond her big dramatic "heartbreak" moments that feels a bit off to me. The line is just a little too stilted. But I like her in the rest of that scene and the shopping sequence at how it is a "makeover," but she is constantly judging the fashion of the day and how restrictive it is for women.

I think with a good director, she will only grow. So hopefully some of the reshoots are Whedon probably toning down Snyder's desire for her to be "sexy, mysterious, aloof, and dangerous." I don't think that plays to Gadot's talents or to why the character struck a chord with audiences in Wonder Woman. I have a hunch that they are going to try to bring out her more generous and compassionate qualities in some of the reshoots.

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I haven't really seen that much of Cavill, but I don't think I noticed any direct flaws in MoS with his performance, it was just that it wasn't really the Superman I expected. From what I've heard he's better in other works, so that's why I put him above.

But as said, she is a charming person and it's probably a good comparison to Reeve, although he's extra extra iconic since he was first and so much earlier than when other good superhero movies came around. As said it's just surprise over the amount of praise, but really I'm happy that she was good enough to lead the movie. That certainly wasn't a given beforehand.
I saw Cavill in The Tudors. He was quite bad in the first two seasons, but became fairly passable by the final two years. He also does have his own charisma, which you can see in The Man from UNCLE. But as Superman he delivers every line rather flatly. I do not see any charisma in it, or warmth, or inner-life. Gal isn't going to win an Oscar anytime soon, but I do see Diana thinking with her eyes and how she is evaluating things around her. Cavill as Superman has failed to give that amount of expression. He tends to just kind of stoically stare with a blank gaze at things while brooding. I will put it this way, Ben Affleck is not a great actor either. But the reason folks are praising him so much after 2016 is because they are comparing him to the plank of wood Cavill came across as in that movie.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:50 AM   #859
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I will say that Affleck ha sproven himself to be a great or the least a very good actor. See The Town, Hollywoodland, and a meh movie but really good performance in The Accountant

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:57 AM   #860
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I saw Cavill in The Tudors. He was quite bad in the first two seasons, but became fairly passable by the final two years. He also does have his own charisma, which you can see in The Man from UNCLE. But as Superman he delivers every line rather flatly. I do not see any charisma in it, or warmth, or inner-life. Gal isn't going to win an Oscar anytime soon, but I do see Diana thinking with her eyes and how she is evaluating things around her. Cavill as Superman has failed to give that amount of expression. He tends to just kind of stoically stare with a blank gaze at things while brooding. I will put it this way, Ben Affleck is not a great actor either. But the reason folks are praising him so much after 2016 is because they are comparing him to the plank of wood Cavill came across as in that movie.
I'm not going to argue against that until I've seen more of him outside Superman, and that probably won't be until MI6.

As for Ben Affleck, I'd at least say he's clearly above the other two mentioned. Again I've not yet seen his latter works, but I only hear good things about when he's starred in his own movies. I don't have any issues with his portrayal of Batman, the bad parts mainly had to do with the script.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:01 PM   #861
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I will say that Affleck ha sproven himself to be a great or the least a very good actor. See The Town, Hollywoodland, and a meh movie but really good performance in The Accountant
Don't forget Phantoms.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:07 PM   #862
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I will say that Affleck ha sproven himself to be a great or the least a very good actor. See The Town, Hollywoodland, and a meh movie but really good performance in The Accountant
Meh. He is serviceable in The Town and Argo, and pretty good in Hollywoodland (I'll throw in Chasing Amy and Shakespeare in Love while I'm at it!). But by and large, I think movies like The Town and Argo would have been better if he cast someone else. For example, his brother Casey, for all his personal faults, is an exceptional actor and was fantastic in Ben Affleck's Gone Baby Gone. If Ben had cast himself in it (which he might've done if it wasn't his first movie as director), the picture would have suffered as a result.

He is always very forced and you can see him pushing himself to be natural or passionate. He sometimes is pretty good (the aforementioned movies), and he sometimes is pretty bad. Just recently Live By Night (which he directed) and The Accountant spring to mind. With that said, he is probably a better natural actor than Cavill or Gadot. But for all the physicality and charisma he brings to Batman, I still think he loses in the race of evoking a sense of nobility or palpable actual suffering (despite Zack's best efforts) like Bale or Keaton did. But that is just my opinion.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:08 PM   #863
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I will just say that she is probably a better actor than Henry Cavill from what I can tell. Then again, maybe Cavill would do better with a better written character, so it is hard to say.

I do agree that her bigger emotional scenes are her weakest moments, but her charisma and affability let her embody what I think audiences *expect Wonder Woman to be. That is why she gets compared to Reeve. As I said before, folks forget he was not a great actor. There have been many better actors to plays superheroes like Downey, Bale, Jackman, and McAvoy. But Reeve simply embodied without an ounce of irony or self-awareness the earnest ideal these DC characters in particular represent. Not even with the winking, smiling self-deprecation of the CW TV shows. That goes a long way, and I think Gadot pulled off something similar in spite of her limitations.
This is getting close to my opinion now. I think Gal has smashed my expectations with her WW performance (and the work she has done on her physique to get for me pretty much the perfect look for the character). But I don't see her as a top actress by any stretch. This role gave her the opportunity to show the charisma that I didn't know she had and embody the role in a natural way that goes beyond an acting performance. She just happens to be a bit of a Wonder Woman which means the level of acting called upon here is not the same as it would be for someone who had less natural similarities with WW. For the purposes of this film though, the exact reasons behind the success don't matter. All that matters is that we have an awesome WW on screen.


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I get what DACrowe is saying. To compare, Arnold might not be the best actor, but I would be disappointed if I had to live in a parallel world where Arnold never was the Terminator.
That's a good example. Arnold is one the best ever movie stars and pretty unique, bringing a lot to his best films (that other actors couldn't). Even after such a successful career though I don't really hear anyone saying he was a great actor. And Gal is probably already better than him but this comparison shows the difference between someone being perfect for a role and nailing it, and being a top actor.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:08 PM   #864
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Also don't forget Curb Your Enthusiasm


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Old 06-19-2017, 12:09 PM   #865
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I get what DACrowe is saying. To compare, Arnold might not be the best actor, but I would be disappointed if I had to live in a parallel world where Arnold never was the Terminator.
I've seen it.


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Old 06-19-2017, 12:12 PM   #866
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Underrated movie.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:55 PM   #867
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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The DCEU has a problem — everybody likes Wonder Woman
https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...justice-league
That's a great problem to have. WB will take those type of problems all year round.

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Old 06-19-2017, 12:59 PM   #868
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That's a great problem to have. WB will take those type of problems all year round.
Yes these problems are definitely better than the problems they've got used to over the last couple of years.

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Old 06-19-2017, 01:22 PM   #869
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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The DCEU has a problem — everybody likes Wonder Woman
https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...justice-league
For some reason this made me laugh.

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In comparison, Snyder’s DCEU is cold and empty. Man of Steel received deserved criticism for Superman’s complete disinterest in search and rescue and the implied body count during the final battle. Snyder heard those complaints. Bruce Wayne retroactively saves a few of those citizens in the opening of Batman vs. Superman, but Snyder’s primary solution is depopulation. We’re told that the fight with Doomsday takes place in an abandoned lot so we don’t have to worry about collateral damage.

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Old 06-19-2017, 01:53 PM   #870
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So cold and disinterested that while he was getting his ass kicked by Faora and Nam-ek, he went out of his way to exit the fight save a soldier from falling to his death...a soldier that was SHOOTING at him just minutes earlier, no less. Yeah thats some cold ****, man.

But whatever, i dont wanna beat a dead horse. It is what it is.

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Old 06-19-2017, 02:00 PM   #871
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Default Re: Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

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The DCEU has a problem — everybody likes Wonder Woman
https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...justice-league
I guess it's a better problem to have than the one they had before WW (EDIT: I'm a Johnny come lately again).

How the hell do they reprise the role of someone who died 100 years ago in the new JL movie? Did I misread or am I missing something???

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Old 06-19-2017, 02:05 PM   #872
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So cold and disinterested that while he was getting his ass kicked by Faora and Nam-ek, he went out of his way to exit the fight save a soldier from falling to his death...a soldier that was SHOOTING at him just minutes earlier, no less. Yeah thats some cold ****, man.

But whatever, i dont wanna beat a dead horse. It is what it is.
The author did say during the final battle.

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Old 06-19-2017, 02:17 PM   #873
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How the hell do they reprise the role of someone who died 100 years ago in the new JL movie? Did I misread or am I missing something???
Put them in a flashback. Most of WW was flashback....so a few minutes in JL shouldn't be a problem.

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Old 06-19-2017, 02:23 PM   #874
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Put them in a flashback. Most of WW was flashback....so a few minutes in JL shouldn't be a problem.
Yeah....sorta figured that....how creative.

You guys working on that weird font problem? Mjölnir is looking kind of weird.

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Old 06-19-2017, 04:44 PM   #875
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Also don't forget Curb Your Enthusiasm


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