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Old 07-04-2011, 11:34 AM   #126
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Default Re: The Official X-Men: First Class Rate and Review Thread: Third Edition

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So you don't agree, and thus I must bend my knee to your opinion?

Yeah, not really. It isn't fussing, it isn't over-analyzing and the scene certainly wasn't fine. You don't play up a relationship and then speed right through it at the most crucial of moments.

Raven gasps, cries two tears, chooses Charles, and then after a 15 second conversations, leaves with Erik, with her last words being to Hank. They are brother and sister. You don't do that to a sibling.

This is forgetting the fact they just left them on an island that was just attacked by US and Soviet fleets. How exactly are they suppose to get off the island? They can't call for help and could be attack again at any moment.
The problem you have is that you're speaking in absolutes about human behaviour as if all people must act the same in any given situation, or as if they must act according to your expectations.

It's usually a sign of people being very young and not knowing the changes that come with many more years of life - such as the people you leave behind and end up never speaking to again (oh yes, plenty of that happens). Real life often consists of phases, usually driven by circumstances, and there will be people from whom you just move on.

The other problem is that you are being far too literal about everything and insisting on a spoon-feeding, dot-to-dot connection for every occurrence. The power of that scene is in Charles realising he can't feel his legs and repeatedly saying so as the camera fades from him; that would probably be totally lost if we had subsequent scenes of him being taken to hospital or if Magneto said 'Azazel, come here, teleport Charles to the nearest hospital with which you are familiar, then come back because i have to make my dramatic exit.'

Raven had formed quite a bond with Magneto, including what looked like a sexual relationship. Magneto accepted her fully for what she was.

I found that scene fine; you didn't. I doubt we are ever going to agree.

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Old 07-04-2011, 11:56 AM   #127
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The problem you have is that you're speaking in absolutes about human behaviour as if all people must act the same in any given situation, or as if they must act according to your expectations.

It's usually a sign of people being very young and not knowing the changes that come with many more years of life - such as the people you leave behind and end up never speaking to again (oh yes, plenty of that happens). Real life often consists of phases, usually driven by circumstances, and there will be people from whom you just move on.
Family is family. You don't leave family behind.

At no point in the film did they show Raven to be as childish, self-centered or lacking in feelings for her brother for the scene to play out the way it did.

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The other problem is that you are being far too literal about everything and insisting on a spoon-feeding, dot-to-dot connection for every occurrence. The power of that scene is in Charles realising he can't feel his legs and repeatedly saying so as the camera fades from him; that would probably be totally lost if we had subsequent scenes of him being taken to hospital or if Magneto said 'Azazel, come here, teleport Charles to the nearest hospital with which you are familiar, then come back because i have to make my dramatic exit.'
They maybe you don't write the scene so that obvious disconnect is there?

There is seemingly no possible way for them to get off that island. The military wouldn't help them. Moira's final scene proves just that. The X-jet is totaled. Mags and friends leave with Azazel. They went out of their way to show all of that.

McAvoy plays the final moments on the island perfectly. That doesn't change how ridiculously awkward the entire scene is, including Fassbender suddenly having an Irish accent.

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Raven had formed quite a bond with Magneto, including what looked like a sexual relationship. Magneto accepted her fully for what she was.

I found that scene fine; you didn't. I doubt we are ever going to agree.
And Charles accepted her when no one else would. He feed her, sheltered her and loved her unconditionally.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:17 PM   #128
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I agree that Mystique leaving Charles in that exact moment in the movie was totally forced and not believable.

I understand why they did it, because Mystique had to join Eric at some point in the past, but doint it in the momment where Charles can even die is totally out of character/reality.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:18 PM   #129
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Family is family. You don't leave family behind.
Some people do. You're talking in absolutes again as though the human race has some kind of rulebook of how to behave.

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At no point in the film did they show Raven to be as childish, self-centered or lacking in feelings for her brother for the scene to play out the way it did.
She and Charles had very varying ideas, as we see in every scene from the one in the pub where he chastises her for flaunting her powers and she says he doesn't understand because his powers are invisible. They grew apart, that's obvious. She became attached to Hank, and then Erik, because she believed she had found unconditional acceptance. Xavier didn't offer her that freedom. He couldn't stand her true mutant form, we saw that.

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There is seemingly no possible way for them to get off that island. The military wouldn't help them. Moira's final scene proves just that. The X-jet is totaled. Mags and friends leave with Azazel. They went out of their way to show all of that.
How they got off the island isn't relevant. All that detail isn't necessary.

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McAvoy plays the final moments on the island perfectly. That doesn't change how ridiculously awkward the entire scene is, including Fassbender suddenly having an Irish accent.
Fassbender's accent is present all through the film, except when he speaking other languages. I saw it four times and made sure to listen out for the accent. Like you, I imagined at first it came in only during the final scenes. It didn't. It was there all along, in most of the dialogue (though not that strong sometimes)

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And Charles accepted her when no one else would. He feed her, sheltered her and loved her unconditionally.
No he didn't. It was not unconditional at all. It was as long as she disguised herself as normal.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:19 PM   #130
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I think when it comes down to it, I agree with X-Maniac. Tho I can certainly see the issue the other side has.

My take is the same take that I have for many instances such as this; its drama. The scene is done a certain way to be more dramatically powerful. Its fiction, not reality. To be completely honest, its a matter I never would have thought about if I didn't frequent these forums.

So many movies have instances of "this should have happened" or "this wouldn't have happened" but you just roll with it because that's the story being told. Honestly, I dont care how the X-Men got off the island, because that isn't important to the story.

I know that if you want to look hard enough, those flaws can be found in any of the X-Men movies. How did Magneto know about Rogue when he doesn't have a Cerebro? How did he know there was a mutant like her out there? How did he know she was on the run in Canada? In X2 how did Logan catch up to Stryker when Stryker was out of the dam before Cerebro even went off? But somehow Logan was still able to catch up to Stryker at the helicopter after suffering through Cerebro and making his way through the corridors.

X2, and even more so, X-Men: The Last Stand show us that Magneto is willing to make any sacrifice necessary to further his cause, including sacrificing his own friends. He left Mystique behind because she wasnt a mutant anymore. He accepted Xavier's death as a necessary means to his end, and felt as such since X-Men. He obviously begins to have those feelings in X-Men: First Class when he tells Charles he is going to kill Shaw, and asks if he has it in him to allow that. He acts on those feelings when he uses the helmet to block out Xavier. Magneto's turn was fine by me, and as far as being left on the island goes, like I said, how they get off doesn't matter. That's not important to the story. Its something that never bothered me, something I wouldn't think about if I didn't read the concerns on here.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:25 PM   #131
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I think the poster is referring to Raven, not Erik. I agree X-Maniac, Raven just saying "yeah bye" didn't fit to me. It really bugged me in fact. A friend of mine had an interesting perspective on it: Had Charles not said anything, she would have stayed. She would have stayed, wanting to go with Erik the whole time but refusing to leave her paralyzed brother out of sympathy and guilt (especially because though she is angry at him, she is not angry enough to ditch him under those circumstances). And that desire would have eaten away at him, at both of them, until they grew to resent each other. This is the last thing Charles would want. HE is the one who encourages Raven to go with Erik. And he makes her (and Erik) go without letting either one of them know the depth of his wound. Don't forget, when Erik pulls out the bullet it is BLOOD-FREE and smashed in. The suits were designed to be bulletproof, I'd wager that the bullet never even touched his skin. It just happened to hit at just the right place and right amount of pressure to break his spine. As far as Erik and Raven know, he's just had the wind knocked out of him.
I've thought this for some time. It's really the best way to explain how Raven could just leave Charles there. Magneto's selfish enough that he might leave his injured friend on the ground but Raven requires more explanation.

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ANYWAY! Film review stuff. This movie gets a 9/10 for me. I loved it! I thought Michael Fassbender stole the show. I loved that there were no heroes in the movie, just complicated characters who think they're in the right. I loved that saintly wise Xavier was a flirtatious spoiled rich kid with a full head of (lovely, lovely) hair. I would LOVE to see him really lose it in the next movie. I would love to see him get angry about the loss of his legs, at Raven, and especially at Erik. I'd love to see him get to a really dark place with his powers as a result and juuuust barely pull out of it in time.
McAvoy stole the show for me, personally. I was ready for Fassbender's badassery after just about every reviewer commented on it, but McAvoy brought so much heart to his performance that he made Charles my favorite character.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:28 PM   #132
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There is seemingly no possible way for them to get off that island. The military wouldn't help them. Moira's final scene proves just that. The X-jet is totaled. Mags and friends leave with Azazel. They went out of their way to show all of that.
Charles is the most powerful telepath in the world. He probably just mind controlled one of the ship's captains to convince him to give them a ride back to the US.

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:47 PM   #133
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Charles is the most powerful telepath in the world. He probably just mind controlled one of the ship's captains to convince him to give them a ride back to the US.
And the military would not have noticed this how?

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Old 07-04-2011, 12:59 PM   #134
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Charles is the most powerful telepath in the world. He probably just mind controlled one of the ship's captains to convince him to give them a ride back to the US.
that's exactly what I thought before he could have done.

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:06 PM   #135
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Some people do. You're talking in absolutes again as though the human race has some kind of rulebook of how to behave.
There is no indication that Raven is anyway as heartless as you seem to think the world is.

And there is a general outline to human behavior. See the trial of Casey Anthony and why there is such things as psychopaths.

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She and Charles had very varying ideas, as we see in every scene from the one in the pub where he chastises her for flaunting her powers and she says he doesn't understand because his powers are invisible. They grew apart, that's obvious. She became attached to Hank, and then Erik, because she believed she had found unconditional acceptance. Xavier didn't offer her that freedom. He couldn't stand her true mutant form, we saw that.
Yeah, that is why she lays in his lap in complete blue form. Because he couldn't stand it.

Just because he doesn't want to see his sister in the nude, does not mean he can't stand how she looks. Should Charles walk around free balling because tigers do?

As to the growing a part thing. That was just poor writing. After all Raven is clearly Charles age, and yet she is grouped with the rest of the kids.

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How they got off the island isn't relevant. All that detail isn't necessary.
To you. It was the first thing my family talked about after how awesome McAvoy was and how crappy Beast's costume was.

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Fassbender's accent is present all through the film, except when he speaking other languages. I saw it four times and made sure to listen out for the accent. Like you, I imagined at first it came in only during the final scenes. It didn't. It was there all along, in most of the dialogue (though not that strong sometimes)
No it isn't. I have seen it thrice. The accent is not there.

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No he didn't. It was not unconditional at all. It was as long as she disguised herself as normal.
You are confusing protecting a loved one, with out right dismissal. She wouldn't be walking around their private quarters blue if that was the case. He didn't want her hurt.

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:37 PM   #136
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There is no indication that Raven is anyway as heartless as you seem to think the world is.

And there is a general outline to human behavior. See the trial of Casey Anthony and why there is such things as psychopaths.
You're still imposing absolutes. Or at least your own values.

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Yeah, that is why she lays in his lap in complete blue form. Because he couldn't stand it.

Just because he doesn't want to see his sister in the nude, does not mean he can't stand how she looks. Should Charles walk around free balling because tigers do?

As to the growing a part thing. That was just poor writing. After all Raven is clearly Charles age, and yet she is grouped with the rest of the kids.
She lies in his lap while covered up in a robe and while in the privacy of the mansion. But it goes beyond that. The scene outside the pub shows the issue between them over acceptance and hiding away.

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To you. It was the first thing my family talked about after how awesome McAvoy was and how crappy Beast's costume was.
Well that's up to them. Doesn't mean it was a global topic of conversation.

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No it isn't. I have seen it thrice. The accent is not there.
I clearly heard it in earlier scenes.

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You are confusing protecting a loved one, with out right dismissal. She wouldn't be walking around their private quarters blue if that was the case. He didn't want her hurt.
The scene outside the pub and subsequent scenes show her increasing discomfort with feeling she had to hide from society. I think the gay allegory applies here; perhaps you should get to know a few.

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:48 PM   #137
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You're still imposing absolutes. Or at least your own values.
Not at all. I am imposing the character traits displayed on film before the final 5 minutes of the film.

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She lies in his lap while covered up in a robe. The scene outside the pub shows the issue between them over acceptance and hiding away.
Because otherwise she be laying in her brother's lap nude. You see a lot of that happening where you come from?

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Well that's up to them. Doesn't mean it was a global topic of conversation.
But you know for a fact it hasn't come up at all? That is rich.

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I clearly heard it in earlier scenes.
Slipping in and out of it isn't a good thing. There is absolutely no reason for it.

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The scene outside the pub and subsequent scenes show her increasing discomfort with feeling she had to hide from society. I think the gay allegory applies here; perhaps you should get to know a few.
I bet it was a good idea walking the streets of Germany proclaiming "I am Jewish and proud" during World War 2. I am sure at the height of the Cold Wary seeing a blue human being who can talk on any form on the streets randomly, one wouldn't bat an eye. Especially when there has never been one indication such beings exist.

We aren't talking whether one enjoys to lay with a man or woman.

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Old 07-04-2011, 02:10 PM   #138
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Not at all. I am imposing the character traits displayed on film before the final 5 minutes of the film.
We clearly see Erik beckoning her, we then see her slowly and uncertainly stepping forward and at first going to Xavier, who then tells her to go with Erik. He knows it's what she really wants, she knows. So she does it. It's an issue that has been bothering her for some time.


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Because otherwise she be laying in her brother's lap nude. You see a lot of that happening where you come from?
It's not her 'brother' in any real sense. It's more a friend who he passes off as his sister in public.

But you're missing the point about Xavier being okay with mutation as long as society doesn't have to face it and deal with it.

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But you know for a fact it hasn't come up at all? That is rich.
It may well have done, but there's no evidence there was a widespread issue beyond your family's conversation.

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Slipping in and out of it isn't a good thing. There is absolutely no reason for it.
Who knows. Fassbender said somewhere there was a decision to use part of his natural accent. Given that he didn't have an Irish lilt when speaking German, French or Spanish, it must have been a deliberate choice. The Irish accent bothered me on the first viewing, but not on the other viewing where i heard it earlier on.

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I bet it was a good idea walking the streets of Germany proclaiming "I am Jewish and proud" during World War 2. I am sure at the height of the Cold Wary seeing a blue human being who can talk on any form on the streets randomly, one wouldn't bat an eye. Especially when there has never been one indication such beings exist.
The point is how she felt about disguising herself in public. That 'arc' is threaded through the film.

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We aren't talking whether one enjoys to lay with a man or woman.
No, but we are talking about social acceptance and feeling one has to hide away, and feeling one has to act normal if mingling in the wider world - especially if looking obviously different in a way that stands out. It doesn't help in one's own self-acceptance if society can't offer acceptance of that which is different. Mystique clearly feels she cannot truly be herself around Xavier or in society in general. The gay allegory is right there.

It's like those in-the-closet celebs who turn up at premieres with a woman on their arm (and, in many cases, even get married) and who, in effect, have a secret life where they can only be themselves in private, while hiding away.

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Old 07-04-2011, 02:53 PM   #139
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We clearly see Erik beckoning her, we then see her slowly and uncertainly stepping forward and at first going to Xavier, who then tells her to go with Erik. He knows it's what she really wants, she knows. So she does it. It's an issue that has been bothering her for some time.
But never to the point of abandoning the only person who actually loves her.

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It's not her 'brother' in any real sense. It's more a friend who he passes off as his sister in public.
That is beyond false. Blood does not make one family. It is love, devotion, affection. They grew up and lived together throughout adolescents. They seemingly live together while Charles is in college.

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But you're missing the point about Xavier being okay with mutation as long as society doesn't have to face it and deal with it.
That is not how Charles thinks at all. He is rational. He understands you cannot just thrust such a thing on the world. It is the equivalent of an alien race landing on the planet.

He, unlike Erik, is the one who accepts all of mankind.

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It may well have done, but there's no evidence there was a widespread issue beyond your family's conversation.
That does not change the fact that it is glaring in the film.

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Who knows. Fassbender said somewhere there was a decision to use part of his natural accent. Given that he didn't have an Irish lilt when speaking German, French or Spanish, it must have been a deliberate choice. The Irish accent bothered me on the first viewing, but not on the other viewing where i heard it earlier on.
The thing is, it goes in and out of the film when he is speaking English, until the beach speech scene when it is full on. That is the point.

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The point is how she felt about disguising herself in public. That 'arc' is threaded through the film.
And yet, you are using Raven's feelings to paint Charles as a monster. You continue to say he wants to her hide, as if it is for some purely selfish reason. That he is disgusted by her looks. It is simply not true, and thus your changed your argument to how "Raven feels". The truth is, all Charles wants for her is to be safe and happy.

Raven can feel misunderstood and uncomfortable. They doesn't mean she is suddenly going to abandon the most important person in her life seconds after he is crippled.

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No, but we are talking about social acceptance and feeling one has to hide away, and feeling one has to act normal if mingling in the wider world - especially if looking obviously different in a way that stands out. It doesn't help in one's own self-acceptance if society can't offer acceptance of that which is different. Mystique clearly feels she cannot truly be herself around Xavier or in society in general. The gay allegory is right there.

It's like those in-the-closet celebs who turn up at premieres with a woman on their arm (and, in many cases, even get married) and who, in effect, have a secret life where they can only be themselves in private, while hiding away.
And yet, I was not aware that simply being in same sex relationship can allow someone to impersonate anyone they like, stop and fire missiles with their mind or mentally rape whomever they choose.

X-men First Class is about a mutant manipulating the World's Superpowers into destroying earth. One who murders without remorse.

I know the entire X-men series is built around mutants being the misunderstood minority, but the way the normal human plight is swept under the rug in the face of these people who constantly try to murder them on mass is quite funny.

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Old 07-04-2011, 03:14 PM   #140
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But never to the point of abandoning the only person who actually loves her.
But that is exactly what she does.

I'm fine with it, you are not. Never shall we agree, I sense.

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That is beyond false. Blood does not make one family. It is love, devotion, affection. They grew up and lived together throughout adolescents. They seemingly live together while Charles is in college.
Right, but she is growing up, changing. That's what people do. You seem to want people to stay the same all of their life. What a strange bubble you live in!

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That is not how Charles thinks at all. He is rational. He understands you cannot just thrust such a thing on the world. It is the equivalent of an alien race landing on the planet.

He, unlike Erik, is the one who accepts all of mankind.
Well, we quite clearly see his attitude upsets Raven, and that is the point. You are somehow superimposing your own values on the story, rather than looking at the story that was on the screen. Raven's reaction outside the pub shows how she feels. Her reaction when presented with the cure shows how she feels. Her reaction when with Erik shows how she feels.

It's not about how you think she should feel, it's about what we are shown. Why do you continue to impose your own values on the film?

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That does not change the fact that it is glaring in the film.
To you it was, evidently. Where is this global survey that shows everyone regarded it as glaring? I must have missed that.

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The thing is, it goes in and out of the film when he is speaking English, until the beach speech scene when it is full on. That is the point.
Perhaps it's part of his new out-and-proud, fully-helmeted, fully-in-control-of-powers state of being! Who knows. It's just a matter of how much you were bothered by it, I'm not sure why you are going on at me as if i have some direct bearing on how he spoke in the film.

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And yet, you are using Raven's feelings to paint Charles as a monster. You continue to say he wants to her hide, as if it is for some purely selfish reason. That he is disgusted by her looks. It is simply not true, and thus your changed your argument to how "Raven feels". The truth is, all Charles wants for her is to be safe and happy.
He's not a monster but, in the end, his various reactions are part of the build-up of things that lead to her decision.

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Raven can feel misunderstood and uncomfortable. They doesn't mean she is suddenly going to abandon the most important person in her life seconds after he is crippled.
Except she did. And look what a cold-hearted ***** she was in the later films.


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And yet, I was not aware that simply being in same sex relationship can allow someone to impersonate anyone they like, stop and fire missiles with their mind or mentally rape whomever they choose.
That's not what I meant and you know it.

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X-men First Class is about a mutant manipulating the World's Superpowers into destroying earth. One who murders without remorse.
No it isn't. The story is not 'about' Shaw at all.

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I know the entire X-men series is built around mutants being the misunderstood minority, but the way the normal human plight is swept under the rug in the face of these people who constantly try to murder them on mass is quite funny.
I'm not sure what you mean, so we'll leave that one!

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Old 07-04-2011, 03:28 PM   #141
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And this is where I end the argument. If you are literally going to go with "but she did" then there is no point. With that theory, every film ever made is done to perfection. Continuity in a character's make up is meaningless, and thus destroying a character for a few minutes of drama is ok. Everything call be excused because it was "for the drama". There is no difference between First Class, The Fantastic Four and porn. There is thus no room for critique and this thread is meaningless.

Good job.

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Old 07-04-2011, 03:57 PM   #142
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And this is where I end the argument. If you are literally going to go with "but she did" then there is no point. With that theory, every film ever made is done to perfection. Continuity in a character's make up is meaningless, and thus destroying a character for a few minutes of drama is ok. Everything call be excused because it was "for the drama". There is no difference between First Class, The Fantastic Four and porn. There is thus no room for critique and this thread is meaningless.

Good job.
Well, clearly we are never going to agree. I'm fine with those particular character elements you are concerned about and I can't really see why they are such an issue. So there is no point in further discussion. I was about to end the conversation as well, so if you hadn't, i would have done.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #143
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The reason why I am not particularly bothered by Raven's decision is because I, in a way, know exactly what she was going through from personal experience.

With my own brother I have had a large feeling of feeling like I had to hide who I was, because my beliefs and values would cause a rift with him and his family. And they did. My brother and his family essentially abandoned me for me standing up for my values and beliefs, and as such, I went my own way, my feelings on a lot of things changed, and I really started to gravitate towards different groups of people who showed me acceptance for who I was.

Obviously Raven and Charles are fiction, my brother and I aren't, and the situations are different. But even having reconciled with my brother, I can easily see how Raven would feel more comfortable with Erik than Charles. Even if Charles' intentions were pure (and I certainly believe they were and I dont view him as a bad guy in the least) often times bad things can be done with the best of intentions. Surely the actions of my brother and his family weren't that finally drove me away were done with good intentions, but in the end it wasnt a course of action that made me feel appreciated.

I see the same with Raven, so I really am able to accept it.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:07 PM   #144
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Xavier didn't offer her that freedom. He couldn't stand her true mutant form, we saw that.

No he didn't. It was not unconditional at all. It was as long as she disguised herself as normal.
Charles was NEVER disgusted with Raven in her true form. If he were, he would've freaked out the very first time they met as children. The only reason he felt it was necessary for her to hide it in public was because he was worried about her and how others would react if they saw it. Others (humankind) may not be as accepting.

Charles deflecting her advances the entire movie were for the very reason he mentioned in the film...she's his closest friend, practically his sister and he found it impossible to look at her the way she wants him to.

The scene where she reveals herself in her true form in the kitchen? Charles wasn't disgusted by her form. He was disgusted because she was NAKED. He even went,

"Could you please put some clothes on?"

It had nothing to do with her natural form...he was looking at his sister naked and was freaked out.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:25 PM   #145
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Charles was NEVER disgusted with Raven in her true form. If he were, he would've freaked out the very first time they met as children. The only reason he felt it was necessary for her to hide it in public was because he was worried about her and how others would react if they saw it. Others (humankind) may not be as accepting.

Charles deflecting her advances the entire movie were for the very reason he mentioned in the film...she's his closest friend, practically his sister and he found it impossible to look at her the way she wants him to.

The scene where she reveals herself in her true form in the kitchen? Charles wasn't disgusted by her form. He was disgusted because she was NAKED. He even went,

"Could you please put some clothes on?"

It had nothing to do with her natural form...he was looking at his sister naked and was freaked out.
Yes, that's true. I didn't express it very well. My point was that Xavier's responses - even though done with good intentions - were not helping her self-confidence as a young woman. Their argument outside the pub and her subsequent conversations indicate she was feeling uncomfortable with having to hide, and that Charles' attitude towards it was not perceived as helpful as she became a young woman trying to accept herself.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:29 PM   #146
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The reason why I am not particularly bothered by Raven's decision is because I, in a way, know exactly what she was going through from personal experience.

With my own brother I have had a large feeling of feeling like I had to hide who I was, because my beliefs and values would cause a rift with him and his family. And they did. My brother and his family essentially abandoned me for me standing up for my values and beliefs, and as such, I went my own way, my feelings on a lot of things changed, and I really started to gravitate towards different groups of people who showed me acceptance for who I was.

Obviously Raven and Charles are fiction, my brother and I aren't, and the situations are different. But even having reconciled with my brother, I can easily see how Raven would feel more comfortable with Erik than Charles. Even if Charles' intentions were pure (and I certainly believe they were and I dont view him as a bad guy in the least) often times bad things can be done with the best of intentions. Surely the actions of my brother and his family weren't that finally drove me away were done with good intentions, but in the end it wasnt a course of action that made me feel appreciated.

I see the same with Raven, so I really am able to accept it.
The thing is, that never happens to Raven. She doesn't need to hide from as Charles accepts her for who she is.

The entire Erik thing doesn't really hinge on her leaving with him, or even the timing. It is the easiness of her manner. There is no real heart to heart, no real discussion. She chooses Charles before he says a word. But as she stands over his now crippled body and he tells her to go, there is no resistance. There is no demonstration of putting a loved one before herself. Charles is the one that does that. She leaves with enthusiasm.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:31 PM   #147
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Yes, that's true. I didn't express it very well. My point was that Xavier's responses - even though done with good intentions - were not helping her self-confidence as a young woman. Their argument outside the pub and her subsequent conversations indicate she was feeling uncomfortable with having to hide, and that Charles' attitude towards it was not perceived as helpful as she became a young woman trying to accept herself.
Well that we can agree on. Charles loves Raven, but he just simply didn't "get" her and how she was feeling...

then again, that's kind of how we all (men) are. Lol.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:38 PM   #148
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Well that we can agree on. Charles loves Raven, but he just simply didn't "get" her and how she was feeling...

then again, that's kind of how we all (men) are. Lol.
She didn't tell him. She doesn't want him to read her mind, but then she decides to play the passive aggressive game. Oh, look Charles is happy. Time to ruin it.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:46 PM   #149
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Yup...girls are good at that.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:48 PM   #150
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The thing is, that never happens to Raven. She doesn't need to hide from as Charles accepts her for who she is.

The entire Erik thing doesn't really hinge on her leaving with him, or even the timing. It is the easiness of her manner. There is no real heart to heart, no real discussion. She chooses Charles before he says a word. But as she stands over his now crippled body and he tells her to go, there is no resistance. There is no demonstration of putting a loved one before herself. Charles is the one that does that. She leaves with enthusiasm.
I guess my take is that yes, Charles does accept her, and is simply realistic about society's views towards her natural form. But for her, an insecure girl with an obviously fragile ego, it doesn't come off like that to her. It comes off as shes not good enough, and has to hide. That he wants her to hide. Even in the "would you date me" conversation, he only begins to stumble over his words when he sees her in blue form.

Meanwhile, Erik accepts her without her having to hide. As for the heart to heart, I felt that happened the night before. The tension was laid with that conversation that she was becoming increasingly frustrated with Charles.

Its just my take, but it all works for me. I didn't take issue with it. And considering my dislike of Vaughn, I definitely have a motive to try to nitpick stuff to dislike

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