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Old 02-12-2014, 09:16 AM   #651
Shakel92
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

Again, this is just my impression, but I DO look at Phase One as grounded and Phase Two as cosmic and Phase 3 as magic. Maybe I'm wrong, and that's fine, but I think we won't see magic until phase 3, based on interviews I've read:

Link: http://geektyrant.com/news/2013/3/6/...gic-in-ph.html

Feige was asked whether "magic" would be a good description of Phase 3 to which he replied,

I’m not looking at Phase One as grounded and Phase Two as cosmic and Phase 3 as magic. The films are all so eclectic and different from each other that you can’t overarchingly categorize them like that. If and when we enter the magic arena, it will be through Doctor Strange. Sure, obviously. And that’s to me what’s exciting about Doctor Strange.

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Old 02-12-2014, 09:17 AM   #652
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

Yeah, the Asgardians have high technology that seems magical to us. Their culture and the way they dress lends to the appearance of magic, when it's actually tech.

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Old 02-12-2014, 09:21 AM   #653
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

There is no real right or wrong answer. But I think it sounds better to really push the science envelope and have characters who insist that there is no such things as magic (or telepathy or telekinesis), and then find out later that it does exist. That can cause a ton of problems, and leads to better storytelling than just having super-science and magic at the start.

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Old 02-12-2014, 09:56 AM   #654
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

To quote Thor:
"Your ancestors called it magic and you call it science. Well, I come from a place where they're one and the same thing".

And in thor Hogun says: "Laufey said there were traitors in the house of Odin. A master of magic could bring three Jotuns into Asgard".

And in Thor 2 in a deleted scene we have Frigga explaining why she taught Loki her 'magic'. He is not using any tech when he is casting his illusions. It's magic (maybe they deleted that so as to wait for Doctor Strange to confirm Magic in the MCU as a seperate thing?)

Anyway's, for me Asgardians can use both. Super science and some magic combined. The Bifrost could be a bit of both, the 'soul forge' was indeed science as Jane called it on exactly what it does. But Odin whispering to the Hammer to enchant it with a worthiness spell? How does science cover that kind of thing?

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Old 02-12-2014, 03:30 PM   #655
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

Magic, until it is explained by science... I guess.

This is the best nerd discussion ever.

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Old 02-12-2014, 09:57 PM   #656
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

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Magic, until it is explained by science... I guess.

This is the best nerd discussion ever.
Which is why you should not define magic subjectively. Either magic means something *specific*, like "altering the world around you through act of will", and remains magic even once people understand how that works ( and there *is* a way it works, make no mistake ). Or else you should stop complaining about lack of magic, because you insist on a self-negating definition.

To repeat: Science is not "use of physical tools". Science is "understanding the world by means of testing it". *Absolutely everything that can be observed is subject to science*. . . and in a setting that includes functional magic? That includes magic.

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Old 02-12-2014, 10:39 PM   #657
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

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Which is why you should not define magic subjectively. Either magic means something *specific*, like "altering the world around you through act of will", and remains magic even once people understand how that works ( and there *is* a way it works, make no mistake ). Or else you should stop complaining about lack of magic, because you insist on a self-negating definition.

To repeat: Science is not "use of physical tools". Science is "understanding the world by means of testing it". *Absolutely everything that can be observed is subject to science*. . . and in a setting that includes functional magic? That includes magic.
Pretty much this. If you can accurately describe a set of circumstances under which a certain action will repeatedly and reliably cause a specific result, you have basically just formulated a "scientific law" -- even if you don't understand that cause. Kepler described the motion of heavenly bodies in a scientific way, but had no understanding of the law of gravity that caused that motion.

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Old 02-13-2014, 07:41 AM   #658
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

Well, personally I prefer to define 'magic' as acts/actions that defies physical law (known or otherwise), so it goes beyond something being able to be to measured/quantified in the same way any normal scientific principal can, no matter how advanced the science may be trying to do that.

At least I prefer that interpretation of magic over it being a quantifiable science that has simply not been figured out. I prefer the idea of it being a separate force in the universe from anything that fits within the 'real' realm of possible physics. A force that only trained adepts like Doctor Strange or powerful beings like some Asgardians (Odin, Frigga, Loki etc), Dormannu, Ghost Rider, Mephisto etc, can access.

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Old 02-13-2014, 11:18 AM   #659
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

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Well, personally I prefer to define 'magic' as acts/actions that defies physical law (known or otherwise), so it goes beyond something being able to be to measured/quantified in the same way any normal scientific principal can, no matter how advanced the science may be trying to do that.
Here's the problem: that's nonsense. There is no "defying" physical law, because physical law is just a description of what happens. If you do something that seemingly defies physical law, than physical law gets rewritten to incorporate the new phenomena.

Again, understand that science and physical law is not a monolithic unchanging codex. Its a provisional set of rules that predict how reality behaves, based on observations of how it behaves. "Physical law" is 'wrong' *all the time*, and gets changed *all the time*.

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Old 02-13-2014, 02:14 PM   #660
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

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Here's the problem: that's nonsense. There is no "defying" physical law, because physical law is just a description of what happens. If you do something that seemingly defies physical law, than physical law gets rewritten to incorporate the new phenomena.

Again, understand that science and physical law is not a monolithic unchanging codex. Its a provisional set of rules that predict how reality behaves, based on observations of how it behaves. "Physical law" is 'wrong' *all the time*, and gets changed *all the time*.
Nonsense? Lol, that's a wee bit rude...we are talking about something that doesn't even exist after all

Anyways, this is how I prefer to view 'magic' in fiction (I stress this is how I personally prefer to see it*). Ok, our science is indeed often 'wrong' and 'gets changed' as we are still learning. Theories get proven right or wrong from observing actual facts via discovery or experimentation, or some bright spark comes up with some new math that trumps previous ideas and so on.

But here's where I would define the difference/divide between science & magic: By even the most advanced science possible to examine it 'magic' defies any deconstuction of how the phenomenon at hand works. No matter the analysis it still doesn't make any sense, it shouldn't work, but somehow, it still does. That to me is 'magic'.

Think Harry Potter with a wooden stick in his hand saying 'illumiwhatever' and the end of that stick turns into a torch. It's nonsensical, it shouldn't work, but it does... because its 'magic'.

*Like I said, this is a personal take on what is in the end a fictional idea, since magic does not really exist outside of fiction. You can disagree and treat magic as a science that simply requires greater understanding or knowledge, and that's fine too. It's up to the writer of that fiction to decide which convention they want to follow.

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Old 02-13-2014, 10:08 PM   #661
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

And here's why that's nonsense: science already has to deal with phenomena like that. Quantum mechanics is a black box, in which it is provably the case that you can't see whats going on "inside". There are major schools of thought on the matter that there is *no* "inside" at all.

The inability to see inside the black box does not change science's ability to deal with phenomena one wit, because science doesn't ultimately care about the "why". It cares about the "what". Something is what it does, and explanatory theories are defined in terms of their ability to make predictions, not to reach some kind of "deeper meaning".

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Old 02-14-2014, 06:03 AM   #662
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

I give up.

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Old 02-14-2014, 07:15 AM   #663
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

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And here's why that's nonsense: science already has to deal with phenomena like that. Quantum mechanics is a black box, in which it is provably the case that you can't see whats going on "inside". There are major schools of thought on the matter that there is *no* "inside" at all.

The inability to see inside the black box does not change science's ability to deal with phenomena one wit, because science doesn't ultimately care about the "why". It cares about the "what". Something is what it does, and explanatory theories are defined in terms of their ability to make predictions, not to reach some kind of "deeper meaning".
So you basically just said that you think magic follows physical laws that science cannot explain. Or, to quote Jane Foster, "Magic is just science that we don't understand [yet]."


Wobbly said: "By even the most advanced science possible to examine it 'magic' defies any deconstuction of how the phenomenon at hand works." You said: "...science already has to deal with phenomena like that. Quantum mechanics is a black box, in which it is provably the case that you can't see whats going on "inside"."

It seems to me that those two statements differ only in the terms used. Wobbly said that science cannot understand how magic works, you said that science cannot understand how quantum mechanics works. It seems to me that you were both getting at the same thing, only wobbly wasn't rude about it.

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Old 02-14-2014, 09:54 PM   #664
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Default Re: Coulson Lives! (the Clark Gregg aka Phil Coulson thread)

No, the difference is that wobbly is claiming this means his definition of magic is sensical, where as I am stating that no, its not. To repeat again: Science is the observation and measurement of what is. If what is, is weird magical phenomenon, than science includes the observation and measurement of that stuff. The only way to place magic outside the boundary of science is for it to be completely impossible to observe. At which point, you don't really have magic anymore.

There really is no way around this. Trying to put a "impossible for science to understand" criteria is particularly baffling, seeing as virtually every setting has magic being entirely understandable to its practitioners. They may not be rigorous about it, but they sure as hell understand that "If X, then Y". That *is* science, or rather, becomes science the moment you actually choose to study it rigorously ( which many settings have the wizard types doing anyway ).

So, if I sound annoyed, the reason is because I *am* annoyed. I see this stuff pop up every few weeks, and its the same fallacies every time. Apparently some people aren't satisfied unless their magic causes anyone with a lab coat to randomly lose 100 IQ points.

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