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View Poll Results: I feel that the ACA is...
a positive thing for the country 8 12.12%
mostly positive 13 19.70%
I am indifferent/neutral to it. 3 4.55%
mostly negative 13 19.70%
terrible 23 34.85%
I need to wait and see. 6 9.09%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-13-2014, 11:28 PM   #926
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Down View Post
"I don't want insurance! I have the right to be unhealthy and use the ER as my primary healthcare, then pass the bill on to the taxpayer when I can't/don't pay the bill!"
Who is paying for it now that Obamcare has passed? Oh, that's right...the same people.

The rest is you pontificating over insurance risk mitigation that was already occurring. But, go ahead and tell me more about how insurance works to fill out your posts.


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YAWN at your Faux Newz talking points.
MSNBC is real news now?

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Old 02-14-2014, 10:40 AM   #927
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by summerteeth View Post

" You don't get to "opt out" of the parts of the risk pool you feel don't apply to you."

Well you certainly used to be able to prior to the ACA, so this seems like a silly argument.
You absolutely could not. You could not say, "I don't want to opt in to the diabetes pool. None of my premiums can go towards that care." It's literally no different than the maternity care issue.

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Originally Posted by Figs View Post
Wait, I think I'm confused on this. I understand that people are paying more for their insurance plan because of extra coverage for problems/diseases that they don't have and might never get. Here's the thing that confuses me. You say "because so many Americans do".

Do you mean that so many Americans do get this or that disease so you should be covered for it as well because the chances are high you will eventually get it? Or is it like that picture I posted and because so many Americans have this or that problem but might not have insurance, the people who do have insurance are paying more to cover the costs of medical bills from the uninsured?
I'm saying neither of those things. I'm saying that insurance is pooled risk, and a result you're paying for all sorts of things you don't personally use. Say you and I have the same insurance provider. If you have type one diabetes, I pay higher premiums because your presence in the risk pool raises the cost to the insurer. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy in any insurance program. Costs are spread across the insurance pool.

Maternity care, or really any women's health issue, is no different. I can never get pregnant but plenty of people in the risk pool can. It's no different than type one diabetes in the example above.

That's why I made the point about preventable disease. If people have access to care and can afford routine check ups, we reduce those preventable disease costs (i.e. catching cancer early) and the risk po becomes less risky. That lowers costs for everyone.


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Originally Posted by chaseter View Post
Who is paying for it now that Obamcare has passed? Oh, that's right...the same people.

The rest is you pontificating over insurance risk mitigation that was already occurring. But, go ahead and tell me more about how insurance works to fill out your posts.

MSNBC is real news now?
Oh chaseter, you have always been one of the most...unique posters on this site. I never quite understood if you were being sincere or if you were just trolling. Now I know.

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Old 02-14-2014, 11:58 AM   #928
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Down View Post
I'm saying neither of those things. I'm saying that insurance is pooled risk, and a result you're paying for all sorts of things you don't personally use. Say you and I have the same insurance provider. If you have type one diabetes, I pay higher premiums because your presence in the risk pool raises the cost to the insurer. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy in any insurance program. Costs are spread across the insurance pool.

Maternity care, or really any women's health issue, is no different. I can never get pregnant but plenty of people in the risk pool can. It's no different than type one diabetes in the example above.

That's why I made the point about preventable disease. If people have access to care and can afford routine check ups, we reduce those preventable disease costs (i.e. catching cancer early) and the risk po becomes less risky. That lowers costs for everyone.
Ok, so people's premiums aren't going up to cover people with no insurance, they're going up due to other people with that provider that could get pregnant, have preexisting conditions or might have a higher risk of getting cancer for example if someone is a smoker. As well as the possibility that you may get a disease, or pregnant if you're a female as well. Is that correct?

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Old 02-14-2014, 01:46 PM   #929
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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You absolutely could not. You could not say, "I don't want to opt in to the diabetes pool. None of my premiums can go towards that care." It's literally no different than the maternity care issue.
Sorry, I guess I have to really spell this out. You could buy plans without maternity care prior to Obamacare now you can't. So why are you bringing up a situation that does not apply. You are constantly building up straw men and speaking in hypotheticals in your arguments.

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Old 02-18-2014, 10:03 AM   #930
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Sorry, I guess I have to really spell this out. You could buy plans without maternity care prior to Obamacare now you can't. So why are you bringing up a situation that does not apply. You are constantly building up straw men and speaking in hypotheticals in your arguments.
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Originally Posted by summerteeth View Post
Sorry, I guess I have to really spell this out. You could buy plans without maternity care prior to Obamacare now you can't. So why are you bringing up a situation that does not apply. You are constantly building up straw men and speaking in hypotheticals in your arguments.
I think you misunderstand what the maternity care requirement really means. Under the ACA, all plans technically "include" maternity care, along with nine other baseline benefits. The point is to ensure that there are no more "junk plans" and to reduce insurance discrimination.

You're upset because some of these benefits don't apply to you (or you think they don't). My point is that this is really nothing new. Your insurance premiums always have and always will go, in part, towards treating diseases and conditions you will never have. Hence the diabetes example. Those who use very little care subsidize those who use a lot of care in any insurance system. So why should maternity care be any different? Because you personally can't get pregnant?

Pre-ACA, you could not have gone to your insurer and said, "Look, I'll never get the following list of chronic/genetic diseases, all of which are obvious from birth. I know a lot of your costs go towards those diseases. Therefore I would like a proportionate reduction in my premiums, please." No, you pay your damn premiums, because insurance is pooled risk. And because when you need health care - say for a heart attack - the insurer will cover it. And they will cover it using premiums from people who will never have a heart attack.

So once again, how exactly is maternity care different than any other health care issue?

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:09 PM   #931
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Originally Posted by Sun_Down View Post
I think you misunderstand what the maternity care requirement really means. Under the ACA, all plans technically "include" maternity care, along with nine other baseline benefits. The point is to ensure that there are no more "junk plans" and to reduce insurance discrimination.

You're upset because some of these benefits don't apply to you (or you think they don't). My point is that this is really nothing new. Your insurance premiums always have and always will go, in part, towards treating diseases and conditions you will never have. Hence the diabetes example. Those who use very little care subsidize those who use a lot of care in any insurance system. So why should maternity care be any different? Because you personally can't get pregnant?

Pre-ACA, you could not have gone to your insurer and said, "Look, I'll never get the following list of chronic/genetic diseases, all of which are obvious from birth. I know a lot of your costs go towards those diseases. Therefore I would like a proportionate reduction in my premiums, please." No, you pay your damn premiums, because insurance is pooled risk. And because when you need health care - say for a heart attack - the insurer will cover it. And they will cover it using premiums from people who will never have a heart attack.

So once again, how exactly is maternity care different than any other health care issue?
Under the ACA plans include maternity care because they are required to include maternity care, mental health and substance abuse etc etc. Prior to Obamacare this wasn't the case or at least not to this extent. So while you can't go through with your insurance company and say yes I would like this, no I don't want coverage for that you could buy a plan without the aforementioned items before Obamacare and as a result it wasn't as expensive. Again, don't see why you said this was Fox News Talking points when it is just fact. Some people lost their plans because their insurance didn't cover these items (these weren't junk plans) while junk plans did exist and it is a good thing we got rid of them there were many perfectly good plans that did not meet new Essential Health Benefit standards established by the ACA. Referring to all these plans as "junk plans" is a talking point though. Before ACA cheaper plans were available with less coverage after ACA these plans were eliminated and that's why people are upset.

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Old 02-19-2014, 12:23 PM   #932
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

My wife and I got out of California just in time.

http://capitalismisfreedom.com/illeg...proposed-bill/

Quote:
A California Democrat is looking to extend taxpayer-funded health-care benefits to illegal immigrants.

State Sen. Ricardo Lara of Long Beach introduced legislation late last week that would extend health-care coverage to all Californians “irrespective of immigration status.”

“The purpose of the Health For All Act is simple — provide health care coverage to California’s remaining uninsured by expanding Medi-Cal and creating a new health exchange where the undocumented can purchase coverage,” Lara said in a statement.



Lara added that the fact that Obamacare expressly denies illegal immigrants coverage “hurts the overall health of our communities, and does not reflect California values.”

The legislation, if passed would create the “California Health Benefit Exchange Program for All Californians” which would be run by officials at California’s Obamacare exchange and would extend eligibility for Medi-Cal benefits to illegal immigrants who would qualify if they were legal.

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Old 02-20-2014, 03:51 AM   #933
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Question to the Americans on this board: What is your ideal healthcare system for America? Would you prefer a single payer healthcare system like in Australia, or some other form?

Just trying to gauge what the general attitude is here, since being Australian I often find the US debates a bit flustering.

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Old 02-20-2014, 04:21 PM   #934
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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My wife and I got out of California just in time.

http://capitalismisfreedom.com/illeg...proposed-bill/
Why not? He sees them as future votes.

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Old 02-20-2014, 04:31 PM   #935
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Why not? He sees them as future votes.
Ah yes, allowing people who aren't citizens to vote...

There's that and then there's this of course.
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taxpayer-funded health-care benefits to illegal immigrants.

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Old 02-20-2014, 04:53 PM   #936
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Question to the Americans on this board: What is your ideal healthcare system for America? Would you prefer a single payer healthcare system like in Australia, or some other form?

Just trying to gauge what the general attitude is here, since being Australian I often find the US debates a bit flustering.
It is a frustrating debate, to be sure. I'm in favor of single payer. People in single payer countries seem to overwhelmingly like it, and I've yet to see an evidence-based argument for why it wouldn't work here. And our system, pre- and post-ACA, sucks. It's expensive and our healthcare outcomes are marginal at best.

But I see healthcare as a basic human right and not simply another consumer product, so I'm not offended by a universal system. Clearly a lot of people disagree. The poor economy and general self-centeredness makes it hard to a lot of Americans to see such a system as anything other than "a handout to the poor at my expense."

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Old 02-20-2014, 05:30 PM   #937
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Under the ACA plans include maternity care because they are required to include maternity care, mental health and substance abuse etc etc. Prior to Obamacare this wasn't the case or at least not to this extent. So while you can't go through with your insurance company and say yes I would like this, no I don't want coverage for that you could buy a plan without the aforementioned items before Obamacare and as a result it wasn't as expensive. Again, don't see why you said this was Fox News Talking points when it is just fact. Some people lost their plans because their insurance didn't cover these items (these weren't junk plans) while junk plans did exist and it is a good thing we got rid of them there were many perfectly good plans that did not meet new Essential Health Benefit standards established by the ACA. Referring to all these plans as "junk plans" is a talking point though. Before ACA cheaper plans were available with less coverage after ACA these plans were eliminated and that's why people are upset.
Here's why we won't agree on this:

Your entire position is based on the following assumption: "People are paying more for insurance because of the ACA." Right? But while there have been some well-publicized anecdotes about premium increases for some people, you've offered nothing to suggest that those anecdotes represent what most people are going through. So no, I do not accept anecdotes and sensationalist news stories as "fact", insofar as it pertains to the vast majority of Americans. Show me something that says that even 40% of people will see their premiums rise as a result of the ACA.

And if you can prove that, then we can discuss whether it's worth it for the country as a whole. But we really can't talk unless we both agree on what is actually happening.

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Old 02-20-2014, 05:32 PM   #938
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

For me, I don't have a problem with how our health care system is supposed to work. I support it. For example, I shouldn't have to pay for someone who chooses to live an unhealthy lifestyle. Any problems incurred by those choices should fall to them and be an additional cost to them (that hopefully provides more incentive to make healthier choices).

The problem I'm seeing in the US is that the system is broken when it comes to pricing. At best, it's grossly inefficient, at worst, downright corrupt. I fail to see why everything is so expensive on the supply side of things. There's a distinct lack of market pressures pushing down prices on everything ranging from medical equipment, to medicines, to education for doctor's and nurses. Which in turn forces insurance rates to go up. And it seems that every attempted 'fix' is targeted at the insurance rates, not the base prices and lack of alternatives in the supply chain. To use a topical metaphor, we keep trying to treat the symptoms instead of the cause.

Because, to me, if we bring down those base costs, then the costs of health care drop. If those costs drop, then insurance premiums can drop. If those drop, more people can get insurance. And it wouldn't surprise me if prices can drop enough that we no longer need insurance to pay for care (except, probably, for the big ticket items like major surgery and cancer treatment and the like; but even those would be more affordable to insurance companies).


One idea of ACA I like is the increase of competition in the insurance market place. This I can get behind. Forcing insurance companies to compete means that our market pressures will force their prices down. To do this, they'll have to put pressure on health care providers to get their prices down. Who will have to put pressure on suppliers (and so on). It's the long way around, but it would certainly help.

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Old 02-20-2014, 05:52 PM   #939
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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For me, I don't have a problem with how our health care system is supposed to work. I support it. For example, I shouldn't have to pay for someone who chooses to live an unhealthy lifestyle. Any problems incurred by those choices should fall to them and be an additional cost to them (that hopefully provides more incentive to make healthier choices).

The problem I'm seeing in the US is that the system is broken when it comes to pricing. At best, it's grossly inefficient, at worst, downright corrupt. I fail to see why everything is so expensive on the supply side of things. There's a distinct lack of market pressures pushing down prices on everything ranging from medical equipment, to medicines, to education for doctor's and nurses. Which in turn forces insurance rates to go up. And it seems that every attempted 'fix' is targeted at the insurance rates, not the base prices and lack of alternatives in the supply chain. To use a topical metaphor, we keep trying to treat the symptoms instead of the cause.

Because, to me, if we bring down those base costs, then the costs of health care drop. If those costs drop, then insurance premiums can drop. If those drop, more people can get insurance. And it wouldn't surprise me if prices can drop enough that we no longer need insurance to pay for care (except, probably, for the big ticket items like major surgery and cancer treatment and the like; but even those would be more affordable to insurance companies).


One idea of ACA I like is the increase of competition in the insurance market place. This I can get behind. Forcing insurance companies to compete means that our market pressures will force their prices down. To do this, they'll have to put pressure on health care providers to get their prices down. Who will have to put pressure on suppliers (and so on). It's the long way around, but it would certainly help.
I agree with you on all counts....

But, this does absolutely nothing on the supply side, and that should have been the #1 priority. NOT, trying to insure "everyone" and cheaper, hoping that those who were not insured (and many didn't want to be insured) would somehow change their mind and run to their computers to join into something that they never had before, didn't feel they needed before and therefore will STILL NOT GET, and simply pay the penalty which is cheaper than the actual insurance that they do not want. Sooooo what we have are people who are very sick, who couldn't get insurance before (though I am very happy that they have the chance at getting insurance) but the cost is going to fall on me, not on all of these new healthy people that were supposed to sign up. So.....once again, the IDEA was a fair one, but the IMPLEMENTATION has sucked beyond compare.

It would have been MUCH EASIER to take on the supply side, but in reality, that is NOT WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION WANTED, they want in the end a single payer program, and I have a feeling that all of these problems is simply helping to fall into place, ACTUALLY what they wanted but would have never gotten in the first place.

Oh well......I have a feeling that I go another year, making less than I did in 2011, and that will not change anytime soon because even with a 3% raise, the increase in my insurance will take that and more.

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Old 02-25-2014, 10:30 AM   #940
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Here's why we won't agree on this:

Your entire position is based on the following assumption: "People are paying more for insurance because of the ACA." Right? But while there have been some well-publicized anecdotes about premium increases for some people, you've offered nothing to suggest that those anecdotes represent what most people are going through. So no, I do not accept anecdotes and sensationalist news stories as "fact", insofar as it pertains to the vast majority of Americans. Show me something that says that even 40% of people will see their premiums rise as a result of the ACA.

And if you can prove that, then we can discuss whether it's worth it for the country as a whole. But we really can't talk unless we both agree on what is actually happening.
There you are, changing the argument again. I never once said the majority of Americans premiums will rise and why you pick an arbitrary number like 40% I do not know. I said that as a result of Obamacare many plans were canceled and then people had to purchase plans which had to cover more because of new standards and as a result you get higher prices. Now some of these millions of people have to buy these broader coverage plans which are more expensive. Majority of which were not junk plans by the way (unless you include plans without maternity coverage for males and mental health and substance abuse coverage as junk plans, this is what is funny considering you fell for a talking point and accuse others of echoing talking points. Now some of these will find their healthcare costs decrease if they qualify for subsidies others will not, I don't think we have the exact numbers on that quite yet. Either way somebody is paying for these increased costs whether that be through higher taxes or increased premiums on the young and healthy who do not qualify for subsidies. You probably don't care about higher taxes, but I do and certainly wouldn't want it spent on this law rather it be put towards education and infrastructure that is if we are going to raise taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/06/news...care-premiums/

It also depends on where you live. Pretty sure it's not a good thing for the Democrats in 2016 that premiums are skyrocketing in Ohio and Florida.

Quote:
That's because these people live in states where insurers were allowed to sell bare-bones plans and exclude the sick, which has kept costs down. Under Obamacare, insurers must offer a package of essential benefits -- including maternity, mental health and medications -- and must cover all who apply. But more comprehensive coverage may lead to more expensive insurance plan
Pretty much what I've been saying. Dang CNN talking points.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101441363

Also majority of small businesses will see their premiums increase. That's just swell let's pass the cost off onto our small businesses.


Last edited by summerteeth; 02-25-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:11 AM   #941
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As someone else said, the biggest problem with the Healthcare system is the price of the product (medicine, medical care, etc). And yes, "product" is the appropriate word here - the medical industry itself - not just the insurance industry - is a business. From the large pharmaceutical company to your local small practice, their aim is to make a profit. Yes, it costs large amounts of money to develop new drugs and machines, and due to the mathematics of business, its expected that the sale price for said products are priced to cover those expenses, but the reality of it is that there is a distressing amount of backroom arrangements, tax evasion and artificial inflation between companies, hospitals and doctors. Coupled with the obvious problems with insurance, its really no wonder we have hit such a boiling point.

In nearly every other industry, as time, research and technology progresses, things get cheaper (there are outliers, sure, but over all, this is true). The medical industry is one of the few where the opposite is the case. In this day and age, there's NO justification that a basic ER visit (5 minutes face time with a doctor, an IV, and a basic x-ray) should cost a patient upwards of $2,000 aftertheir insurance.

No, forcing people to pay more for an insurance policy that has things they do not want/need (and to cover those who can't pay - we already have a medicare tax) is NOT the solution; that's like putting a bandaid on a compound fracture - you might slow the bleeding, but it doesn't change the fact that you've got a ****ing broken bone sticking out of your skin.

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Old 02-25-2014, 05:16 PM   #942
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Our health care we were supposed to be able to keep was canceled. My wife some more but tried to shop around for something not horrible more expensive.
As a result we had a 15 day window with no healthcare. During that time she got severe nausea but wanted to wait it out till we were insured again to go to the doctor ( Scottish stock) The day before it was to go into effect she couldn't rise or talk in the morning.

She lasted about 24 hours. Her pancreas has an infection and turned septic. They might not have caught it a doctor's visit but we sure would have checked several days earlier.

So Obama's "you can keep your healthcare" lie is a big deal to me.

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Old 02-25-2014, 05:32 PM   #943
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Who is paying for it now that Obamcare has passed? Oh, that's right...the same people.

The rest is you pontificating over insurance risk mitigation that was already occurring. But, go ahead and tell me more about how insurance works to fill out your posts.



MSNBC is real news now?
Sure, it is paid for by taxpayers, but at least it's not all for emergency room care, which is expensive. Also, it's also going to be cheaper in the long run because of the (less emergency room care). In addition there should be more healthier outcomes since less folks will be waiting until the last minute to go to the doctor. I don't' think anyone in their right mind was thinking that we would pay nothing to help out those in need, but judging from you snide remarks you might be one of those who aren't.

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Old 02-25-2014, 06:42 PM   #944
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Under the ACA plans include maternity care because they are required to include maternity care, mental health and substance abuse etc etc. Prior to Obamacare this wasn't the case or at least not to this extent. So while you can't go through with your insurance company and say yes I would like this, no I don't want coverage for that you could buy a plan without the aforementioned items before Obamacare and as a result it wasn't as expensive. Again, don't see why you said this was Fox News Talking points when it is just fact. Some people lost their plans because their insurance didn't cover these items (these weren't junk plans) while junk plans did exist and it is a good thing we got rid of them there were many perfectly good plans that did not meet new Essential Health Benefit standards established by the ACA. Referring to all these plans as "junk plans" is a talking point though. Before ACA cheaper plans were available with less coverage after ACA these plans were eliminated and that's why people are upset.
That's not quite true. Under what you called the old system (private insurance), often plan holders pay for care that they will never receive. I am a guy and I will never have a baby, but my plan covers that... even before the ACA. That's just the way it works.

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Old 02-25-2014, 06:44 PM   #945
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Our health care we were supposed to be able to keep was canceled. My wife some more but tried to shop around for something not horrible more expensive.
As a result we had a 15 day window with no healthcare. During that time she got severe nausea but wanted to wait it out till we were insured again to go to the doctor ( Scottish stock) The day before it was to go into effect she couldn't rise or talk in the morning.

She lasted about 24 hours. Her pancreas has an infection and turned septic. They might not have caught it a doctor's visit but we sure would have checked several days earlier.

So Obama's "you can keep your healthcare" lie is a big deal to me.
I most cases, that plan you fooled yourselves into thinking you needed wasn't really good for you. The other thing was you were offered another plan (with the same carrier).

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Old 02-25-2014, 10:22 PM   #946
Kelly
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Good lord, you are actually trying to explain to him why he went through what he just went through. Amazing....*shakes head*

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Old 02-25-2014, 10:27 PM   #947
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

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Good lord, you are actually trying to explain to him why he went through what he just went through. Amazing....*shakes head*
Why even bother pointing out the absurdity Kelly

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Old 02-26-2014, 10:35 AM   #948
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...julie-boonstra

What a brainwashed ***hole. Obamabots...*sigh*

As for the girl...

Quote:
“I believed the president. I believed I could keep my health insurance plan. I feel lied to.
That's because you/we were lied to.

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Old 02-26-2014, 12:52 PM   #949
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnno1 View Post
I most cases, that plan you fooled yourselves into thinking you needed wasn't really good for you. The other thing was you were offered another plan (with the same carrier).
Did you essentially just tell this guy his wife died because they were stupid? Wow dude.

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Old 02-26-2014, 01:16 PM   #950
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Default Re: Affordable Care Act: Real Reform or More Bureaucracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamteck View Post
Our health care we were supposed to be able to keep was canceled. My wife some more but tried to shop around for something not horrible more expensive.
As a result we had a 15 day window with no healthcare. During that time she got severe nausea but wanted to wait it out till we were insured again to go to the doctor ( Scottish stock) The day before it was to go into effect she couldn't rise or talk in the morning.

She lasted about 24 hours. Her pancreas has an infection and turned septic. They might not have caught it a doctor's visit but we sure would have checked several days earlier.

So Obama's "you can keep your healthcare" lie is a big deal to me.
I apologize that I didn't say this yesterday, but I am very sorry for what you have been through, and some of the less tolerable replies you may get from telling your story.

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Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.
~Martin Luther King Jr.~
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