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Old 02-02-2017, 10:29 AM   #1
Skrilla31
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Default 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Often you'll see that people who don't like Superman will cite the reason that he's too powerful and thus he's never in any real danger, and that's why it's hard to craft a movie around him.

For one, EVERY superhero is equally as powerful as Superman in their own given set of circumstances. Batman is so powerful that's he's actually able to BEAT Superman! Dr. Strange is so powerful that he could defeat the main bad guy by forcing him into an endless time loop! What's messing with that???

The fact is if you put Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Dr. Strange, Wonder Woman, Deadpool, Black Panther, Black Widow... or pretty much any superhero character you could name... in a room against 20 random goons... their odds of survival are the same as Superman's which is 1000%.

Second, the drama with Superman doesn't just stem from the character's own predicament but rather someone ELSE'S predicament. The question going into a Superman adventure isn't always 'Will Superman survive?' A lot of the time the question going in is 'Will Superman save the day?"... or "Can Superman rescue ____". What separates Superman from most other characters is that his greatest enemy is actually peril itself.

When someone behind the camera figures that out, I think that's when the Superman franchise can get back down to business.

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Old 02-02-2017, 03:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

I get the idea the fandom just likes to complain about things. Superman is boring because he it too powerful.
So in Man of Steel they give him Zod and people complain about all the death and destruction because
Superman can't take out Zod with one punch and has to resort to killing Zod to stop Zod.
Also in the TV show Supergirl people complain she is too weak because they give her villains as powerful as she is.

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Old 02-02-2017, 04:32 PM   #3
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

It's a lazy argument made by people with no imagination.

Though I will say that someone behind the camera has clearly already figured out that putting others in peril is the key to providing good conflict for Superman. We saw it in SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE, SUPERMAN II, and in SUPERMAN III and IV.

And in LOIS & CLARK, SMALLVILLE...

...SUPERMAN RETURNS featured Superman sacrificing himself to save people, that's more or less the conflict that led to the ending of MAN OF STEEL, the climax of BVS involved Superman giving his life to save others...

I don't think that concept is lost on people. It's just lost on people making a lazy argument.

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Old 02-02-2017, 06:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Right now, this is the least of Superman’s problems bringing him to life on screen.

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Old 02-02-2017, 07:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Superman will and always will be the measuring stick, and that bothers most. I think Supes has that "big man on campus" vibe going for him on the outskirt of things. People judge a book by that cover, but once you get to know him, you had it all wrong and figure out he's a nice guy, so him being an even better person is more annoying, so that jealousy kicks in even more.

It was always hilarious to me that my friends would fly off the handle so easily in a debate and challenge me how boring Superman is because he's overpowered....but their __insert favorite superhero character__ could beat him. Once that happens in an argument, I always win in checkmate fashion and use their own logic against them. Never fails.

In a nutshell, Superman is not all powers and actually has many layers to him that the average hero doesn't even come close to owning. Once people realize that, they quietly bow out.

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Old 02-02-2017, 07:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Often you'll see that people who don't like Superman will cite the reason that he's too powerful and thus he's never in any real danger, and that's why it's hard to craft a movie around him.

For one, EVERY superhero is equally as powerful as Superman in their own given set of circumstances. Batman is so powerful that's he's actually able to BEAT Superman! Dr. Strange is so powerful that he could defeat the main bad guy by forcing him into an endless time loop! What's messing with that???

The fact is if you put Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Dr. Strange, Wonder Woman, Deadpool, Black Panther, Black Widow... or pretty much any superhero character you could name... in a room against 20 random goons... their odds of survival are the same as Superman's which is 1000%.

Second, the drama with Superman doesn't just stem from the character's own predicament but rather someone ELSE'S predicament. The question going into a Superman adventure isn't always 'Will Superman survive?' A lot of the time the question going in is 'Will Superman save the day?"... or "Can Superman rescue ____". What separates Superman from most other characters is that his greatest enemy is actually peril itself.

When someone behind the camera figures that out, I think that's when the Superman franchise can get back down to business.
I get everything you are saying, but the main problem is that people like weakness in their heroes, they like to see the hero overcome the bad guy.
In Superman's case, everyone is already expecting it to just be one-sided, that the villain is just not a threat.
He is seen as a god, and as such, not relatable.

Even so, to make a great Superman movie is totally doable.
All it takes is to get into the character and not just his powers.
Personally, i have an idea how to make a Superman trilogy and even more....

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Old 02-02-2017, 09:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

The problem in this case has NEVER been Superman being "too powerful"...it's that WB and the filmmakers have shown an absolute reluctance to give him a classic foe who's more than up to the challenge, beyond Zod and the Evil Super-Clone Of The Week (Dark Superman, Nuclear Man, Doomsday, Insert Name Here). Outside of power-sappers like Parasite and Metallo, Brainiac's been shown to be able to physically take him; so has Lobo. And I'm certain there's others who could who aren't just more Phantom Zone escapees. Honestly, I still think the only reason they're skipping all of them to go straight to Darkseid is to try to one-up Marvel and Thanos.

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Old 02-02-2017, 10:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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Honestly, I still think the only reason they're skipping all of them to go straight to Darkseid is to try to one-up Marvel and Thanos.
Oh, i know it is, just like the all Justice League movie in a hurry is because of the Avengers movies being a success.

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Old 02-02-2017, 10:32 PM   #9
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Guys, Hollywood follows trends and the superhero genre is no different. If you can't get with the times and adapt to the current market, you're going to get left in the dust. Marvel would have never takin' a shot if the likes of Spider-Man, X-Men or The Dark Knight Trilogy wouldn't have been an enormous success in the years prior. Even after a widely successful trilogy, Spider-Man even tried rebooting and coming up with their own franchise that included a connected universe with Sinister Six until Marvel got Spidey's rights back and Fox's X-Men has been in their own phase's for more than a decade so everything rides with the current market and what's clicking.

It's not like JL is in a hurry, either. All we heard about since before Man of Steel was Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League, Justice League.

Zack Snyder couldn't answer a Superman question without Justice League coming up. Instead of going from Man of Steel and straight into Justice League, JL is the universe's 5th movie on the slate. And as of now, we don't know about Darkseid or when he'll appear. As it stands, we're getting Steppenwolf.

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Old 02-03-2017, 12:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

To me the thing that has always made Superman so super is that he has all that power and uses it for the greater good, and usually trying to do as little harm as possible in the process ( a lot of the damage in Man of Steel being more about him not really realising just how powerful he is - and of course most of the destruction of Metropolis was done by the gravity weapon).

In fact, using his godlike might for good is what really makes him superhuman, because a human with all that power would probably not be so altruistic.

The best Superman stories explore his humanity. Stories like All-Star Superman and Kingdom Come delve into what makes him tick, while showing him at the very peak of his power.

Just as its a convention that Batman is the greatest human unarmed combatant, I feel it's a convention that Superman should be the most powerful Superhero.

That's not to say he shouldn't be tested and pushed to the limit by his enemies, but I don't see anything wrong with him being so powerful.

Of course having said that, my favorite Superman era was the John Byrne reboot of 1986 - and his Superman got his ass kicked on numerous occasions, the only one which annoyed me was that Lobo nearly killed Supes - who might not be able to outfight Lobo, but should be able to use his array of powers to overcome him (of course the next time they met Supes punched him off the planet).

To me, Superman's immense power is just part of what gives him mythic status.

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Old 02-03-2017, 01:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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Old 02-03-2017, 02:08 AM   #12
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

The DCEU has been very tame with Superman's power so far.
It actually feels really understated when you think of all that he's capable of.
I'm sure we'll see the full extent of his power against Darkseid, which I still feel is being done prematurely.

There's no real build-up.
I know they're in a race against Marvel, but they still should have
gone at their own pace rather than rush into JL & Darkseid.

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Old 02-03-2017, 03:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
For one, EVERY superhero is equally as powerful as Superman in their own given set of circumstances. Batman is so powerful that's he's actually able to BEAT Superman! Dr. Strange is so powerful that he could defeat the main bad guy by forcing him into an endless time loop! What's messing with that???
Well, yeah, but you're talking about special circumstances. Batman can take down Superman... With an extremely precise plan that requires Superman to not kill him, and only works with Kryptonite, a magical rock which was only written into existence in the first place to give Superman some type of weakness. That or Red Sun radiation, which takes away his powers completely. And if there's a single variable Bruce didn't account for in his plan, he's dead.

Doctor Strange, meanwhile, only beat Dormammu with an all-powerful plot McGuffin. That's not part of Doctor Strange's base power set, and they made a point of having him not use it through most of the movie because screwing with time is forbidden.

Quote:
Second, the drama with Superman doesn't just stem from the character's own predicament but rather someone ELSE'S predicament. The question going into a Superman adventure isn't always 'Will Superman survive?' A lot of the time the question going in is 'Will Superman save the day?"... or "Can Superman rescue ____". What separates Superman from most other characters is that his greatest enemy is actually peril itself.
Yes, and Superman also has super speed. If you were to, say, stick a gun to Lois's head and threaten to kill her, he'll shove you through the wall before you can even blink. And if he has to find someone who is hidden somewhere in the city, well, he also has super hearing and X-ray vision.

Super speed, I would say is the biggest problem with Superman being overpowered in combat as well, and I would make the same argument about the Flash. Once you can move (and process information) faster than a speeding bullet, there is literally no scenario where you shouldn't win a fight against a non-speedster. The near-complete invulnerability, boundless strength, flight, laser vision, ice breath, X-ray vision, super hearing and super intelligence are all just bonuses.

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Old 02-03-2017, 04:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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The DCEU has been very tame with Superman's power so far.
It actually feels really understated when you think of all that he's capable of.
I'm sure we'll see the full extent of his power against Darkseid, which I still feel is being done prematurely.

There's no real build-up.
I know they're in a race against Marvel, but they still should have
gone at their own pace rather than rush into JL & Darkseid.
The villain of JL is Steppenwolf not Darkseid.

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Old 02-03-2017, 10:54 AM   #15
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Often you'll see that people who don't like Superman will cite the reason that he's too powerful and thus he's never in any real danger, and that's why it's hard to craft a movie around him.

For one, EVERY superhero is equally as powerful as Superman in their own given set of circumstances. Batman is so powerful that's he's actually able to BEAT Superman! Dr. Strange is so powerful that he could defeat the main bad guy by forcing him into an endless time loop! What's messing with that???

The fact is if you put Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Dr. Strange, Wonder Woman, Deadpool, Black Panther, Black Widow... or pretty much any superhero character you could name... in a room against 20 random goons... their odds of survival are the same as Superman's which is 1000%.

Second, the drama with Superman doesn't just stem from the character's own predicament but rather someone ELSE'S predicament. The question going into a Superman adventure isn't always 'Will Superman survive?' A lot of the time the question going in is 'Will Superman save the day?"... or "Can Superman rescue ____". What separates Superman from most other characters is that his greatest enemy is actually peril itself.

When someone behind the camera figures that out, I think that's when the Superman franchise can get back down to business.
So, the difference is that Dr. Strange doesn't walk around with an Infinity Stone, or Batman with a ring that renders all his enemies weak as kittens. Superman, unlike Spider-Man can survive 20 goons by just standing still, and so his actions in such a situation aren't important, are boring. And unlike Hulk and Thor, Superman is perceived as someone protects a city full of normal people and normal criminals. And the actions of normal criminals are what most people are skilled with, what they can understand. That's the concept presented to them, that's what they know of Superman and that's boring.

Creating the obstacles you're talking about, abstract obstacles, and making them meaningful requires more writing skill. With Dr. Strange, you can just strand him in the mountains and have a great character moment. With Captain America you can lock him in an elevator. For many heroes, you can cull inspiration from any action movie, or from everyday life or news headlines. Other Class 100 heroes like Hulk are their own enemy, or Thor and Wonder Woman who are known to fight mythological culled form huge mythologies that have proven to be not boring for centuries. Superman requires more skill and creativity than that.

This is not to say that he cannot have good stories, but those who make good stories will be aware that he is more difficult to write for than, say, Batman.

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Old 02-03-2017, 03:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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The villain of JL is Steppenwolf not Darkseid.
Which is still a lot closer to Darkseid than I thought we'd be after two films.
Not that I would have wanted them to drag out the build-up for a decade, but still...

I was hoping they'd go through the process of showing off Mother Boxes, showing what they're capable of, explaining what they are... like Marvel did with the Infinity Stones. Instead of just slamming us with it all in one movie. It just makes me feel like it'd be rushed.

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Old 02-03-2017, 04:01 PM   #17
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Instead of just slamming us with it all in one movie.
But they are not. Thats the point. Instead of going full on Darkseid with the first movie, they are introducing the motherboxes and Steppenwolf first. They are building upto him.

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Old 02-03-2017, 04:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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The villain of JL is Steppenwolf not Darkseid.
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But they are not. Thats the point. Instead of going full on Darkseid with the first movie, they are introducing the motherboxes and Steppenwolf first. They are building upto him.
They have a lot to squeeze into the JL film.
Aquaman, Cyborg, Mother Boxes, Steppenwolf, The Flash, Superman, etc...
I just feel like it should have been fleshed out over a series of films.

Unless it's a three hour and thirty minute film, I feel like the plot/storylines are going to be rushed.
But we're moving into another topic now...

Either way, I don't feel like Superman is "overpowered".

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Often you'll see that people who don't like Superman will cite the reason that he's too powerful and thus he's never in any real danger, and that's why it's hard to craft a movie around him.

For one, EVERY superhero is equally as powerful as Superman in their own given set of circumstances. Batman is so powerful that's he's actually able to BEAT Superman! Dr. Strange is so powerful that he could defeat the main bad guy by forcing him into an endless time loop! What's messing with that???

The fact is if you put Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Dr. Strange, Wonder Woman, Deadpool, Black Panther, Black Widow... or pretty much any superhero character you could name... in a room against 20 random goons... their odds of survival are the same as Superman's which is 1000%.

Second, the drama with Superman doesn't just stem from the character's own predicament but rather someone ELSE'S predicament. The question going into a Superman adventure isn't always 'Will Superman survive?' A lot of the time the question going in is 'Will Superman save the day?"... or "Can Superman rescue ____". What separates Superman from most other characters is that his greatest enemy is actually peril itself.

When someone behind the camera figures that out, I think that's when the Superman franchise can get back down to business.
His love for the people of earth is his weakness. His moral compass is also his weakness that Lex tried to crack.

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:51 PM   #20
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The problem in this case has NEVER been Superman being "too powerful"...it's that WB and the filmmakers have shown an absolute reluctance to give him a classic foe who's more than up to the challenge, beyond Zod and the Evil Super-Clone Of The Week (Dark Superman, Nuclear Man, Doomsday, Insert Name Here). Outside of power-sappers like Parasite and Metallo, Brainiac's been shown to be able to physically take him; so has Lobo. And I'm certain there's others who could who aren't just more Phantom Zone escapees. Honestly, I still think the only reason they're skipping all of them to go straight to Darkseid is to try to one-up Marvel and Thanos.
Ok. So Zod and Doomsday. 2 for 2 so far.

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:54 PM   #21
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The DCEU has been very tame with Superman's power so far.
It actually feels really understated when you think of all that he's capable of.
I'm sure we'll see the full extent of his power against Darkseid, which I still feel is being done prematurely.

There's no real build-up.
I know they're in a race against Marvel, but they still should have
gone at their own pace rather than rush into JL & Darkseid.
What race? This baffles me.

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Old 02-03-2017, 06:58 PM   #22
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

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Ok. So Zod and Doomsday. 2 for 2 so far.
No, not really:

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it's that WB and the filmmakers have shown an absolute reluctance to give him a classic foe who's more than up to the challenge, beyond Zod and the Evil Super-Clone Of The Week (Dark Superman, Nuclear Man, Doomsday, Insert Name Here).

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Old 02-03-2017, 09:58 PM   #23
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No, not really:
Ah . Duh. My bad. Sorry. Other than Lex I'm not very familiar with the baddies. I know Metallo. Bizzaro,but I guess I liked how Doomsday happened. Because he's mindless I like that I don't regret him being killed off.
I know most fans criticize Superman's gloominess. I don't think it's bad from a narrative standpoint but I do think he's gloomy. I think his being accepted by most all the world will make him the happier guy people want. I really believe that was always the plan but whatevs.
You guys and women know better than me about the villains.

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Old 02-04-2017, 07:15 AM   #24
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

In any single story, it’s a relatively simple matter to supply the hero with a plausibly challenging villain. E.g., if Superman has a “x10 power level” (or “x20” or “x30”), just make sure the villain-du-jour is roughly equivalent. But this template becomes problematic over a longer series of stories within the same continuity. So if, at one point, you’ve established that Supes can move a planet or break the light barrier, it’s then difficult to feature more ordinary battles with “mere” killer robots or giant spiders.

In recent decades, Superman’s power level has been markedly dialed back from the Silver Age extremes. Presumably, this was done because a somewhat less omnipotent hero makes for more interesting adventures and a more manageable internal logic. So in this respect, Superman being “overpowered” wasn’t a “myth.”

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Old 02-04-2017, 11:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: 'Superman is too overpowered'... is a MYTH

I've never fully understood the overpowered argument where Superman is concerned. It's like saying Batman is too smart or Wonder Woman is too physically capable. Create antagonists who are just as (if not more) powerful, smart, or skilled. Of course, there's a right and wrong way to do it (see: Naruto), but the same can be said for literally everything.

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