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Old 02-18-2013, 09:15 PM   #176
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

The thing is TDKR addresses things about the world that aren't going away any time soon. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is not something that Batman can punch in the face.

However, what we have at the end of TDKR is a Gotham that is, with any luck, a bit more united having narrowly survived near obliteration, and inspired by the acts of heroism by the police and the Batman.

As Keaton said, "It's not a perfect world." But the hope is it can slowly become a better world. These are things the movie can allude to and suggest, but there's only so far it can go with it while staying credible. It can't just cut to Gotham 100 years later prospering. That's why we need to have Blake ready to assume the mantle if need be. The cynic in us (and Nolan) knows that as much as we want the world to improve, evil is always lurking around the corner, threatening to rear its ugly head.

On the other hand, the events of the film are so extreme that it makes you wonder if Gotham might actually be able to rebuild itself better this time around. I like to think so. Gotham fell so it could learn to pick itself up.

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Old 02-18-2013, 09:23 PM   #177
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Originally Posted by Doctor Who View Post
Bane is basically a setup of a character that gets lost in his own loop hole. He really had no plan, other than do whatever Talia wanted; and that called for escaping from the Pit with Talia and being trained to become a member of the LOS. Later on, when Ra's gets an idea that he's a bit of a rage monster with zero control and banishes him from the League.

Meanwhile, I guess Bane does practically nothing between his banishment and the events following after Batman Begins until Talia finds out her father dies and calls upon Bane to be a mysterious plot device for her plan. The movie implies that Bane's only real motivation is doing whatever Talia wants, but I like to think he was doing as he pleased too. It's safe to guess from being in the Pit for so long for reasons that could be similar to Vengeance of Bane, his view is of a prison world. And with that, he sees Gotham as an even greater prison and Batman the warden: logically, his mindset tells him to break the Batman, and from that he becomes the top dog.

But at the same time, it doesn't make much sense, does it? Why would he want to rule Gotham only to be working under Talia for her love? Not to mention if Gotham were to become his and become another Pit of Despair, if you will, why create a temporary prison to blow up? There's no real follow up, and you would figure he would be aiming for a greater evil that would be a bit more permanent. LOL

And how it sounds on Talia's end, she sounds like yet another stupid woman we know of that has daddy problems. I can't blame her though! All of her life she grew up in a prison with her mom only to see her be killed. Dad's not around because the War Lord found Ra's marrying her daughter behind his back. For that, he sends his own pregnant daughter into a raging hell and makes Ra's an outcast.

That part makes perfect sense.

Later on in the Pit, she befriends Bane; she's found a big best friend that protects her and he has his own little Osito. Basically it's a romance between Chewie and a female Han Solo, minus how pedophile-ish it may seem. But then again, I can guess at this point when Talia escapes, she's between 8-10 years old, and Bane is probably 16 at the time.

On that side of the world, that makes sense.

When she escapes and Bane helps her in the process, being brutally beaten in the process, it's probably shortly after Talia finds her father (who's already begun creating the LOS) and they go into the Pit to save Bane. I'm surprised it took Ra's that long to go out save his own daughter, but at the time he probably didn't know he knocked up his wife before sending her to her death. I won't be picky and question that to no end. ANY WAY. He finds out he has a daughter. To make up for all the years that he never had with Talia, being the irresponsible father he was, goes over and saves her boyfriend from the pit. Ra's probably thinks "hey, he seems like a nice guy: takes care of Talia when his wife killed, gets beat to hell so she can escape. What the hell!" Ra's, Talia, and the League finally go barging into the Pit to extract vengeance on everyone there and save Bane. What could go wrong with this fantasy of a morbid fairy tale ending?

With some consideration Ra's takes in Talia and Bane, trains them to be members from the LOS. You never see Talia use this hand to hand combat and skilled ninjitsu, but other than that... once again, it's a rational train of thought.

After awhile, Ra's sees that Bane has anger management issues and has probably gone through 40 different members of the League like toilet paper, and decides enough is enough! Pulls his thoughts together, gives Bane a slap on the wrist and excommunicates him from the League because he's a reminder of his wife and the hell he stuck her in... and that he probably hulked out too much when he shouldn't have and killed about 42% of the group he invested years in making. He DID take the time to get his newly formed order to save his @$$ from the Pit. And in return, kills almost half of them, or safe to assume that he does. What other kind of reckless behavior would you expect from a group of deadly assassins that would make Ra's a little ticked off? In the eyes of Ra's, Bane is a reckless hummer driving douce bag monster and doesn't deem him fit for his daughter.

If I was a father and just found this out about a daughter I never knew that I had, I would kind of feel the same way.

With Bane gone, I guess Talia has a b*tch fit and never speaks to her father again. So for years on out, she then ONLY decides to forgive her father after he's dead. Talia's pissed because she's under the impression that Ra's only excommunicated Bane because he loved her. It could VERY WELL be the case, but again... I won't question it. So Talia leaves because she's pissed with daddy for taking Bane away. She never speaks to him or comes around to forgiving him until she finds out Batman murders him... which, let's be honest, DID. LOL

And because Ra's failed to cleanse the world with an Ozymandias like motive (that has its benefits in an overly extreme way), Batman within 8 years is able to purify Gotham for the most part with the help of Dent and Gordon... without killing anyone. Minus Ra's, who he left on a train with no rail and a device that could explode at any time. And Harvey Dent... because he got butter fingers and dropped him accidentally after shoving him off of 6-10 story roof only moments earlier. It was a lie, sure, but most great things come from secret lies.

So in a nutshell:

-Talia in a angry PMS fury, devises a plan to destroy a Gotham that's already been, for the most part, saved, with the help of Bane whom considers only a friend at this point after fooling around with Bruce.

-Bane is friend zoned and does everything in the name of Talia's love while attempting to have his own fun along the way. Which includes breaking Batman, putting him in the Pit that he endured for years for reasons we can assume that was created by Chuck Dixon.

-The Emperor Palpatine of the story, Talia, makes a half-@$$ed plan as an apology to her father who shouldn't have been fooling around with his bosses' daughter in the first place, and in the process marrying her as an apology for not wearing or breaking his condom.

-And from there, Talia takes advantage of Bane's love and makes him do all the hard work as a grand master dictator... While she dolls up for a board member job in Wayne Enterprises, only to throw parties and screw Bruce Wayne on the side because she's a typical artificial b*tch.

THAT'S where the tires fall off for me.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Ra's was sincere at the League's mission: maintaining balance through burning out corruption. His relationship to Bane is that of a savior to a victim. Similar to Bane's relationship to young Talia. We know Ra's threw Bane out because he reminded Ra's of the hell hole where his wife was killed.

Everything Bane presents us in the film indicates that Talia allowed him to take leadership of the League of Shadows so long as she could complete Ra's work. Recall Bane's "I am the League of Shadows." line. Also from the first Bane vs Batman fight, recall Bane's dialogue with Bruce about betraying the League. Now, look at each character's situation. They are remarkably similar. Both were rescued by Ra's. Both were given training. Only Bruce was chosen as Ra's successor. Bane was cast out by Ra's.

Bane's apparent disgust at Bruce throwing away the position he was offered by Ra's, taken with the aforementioned dialogue from the sewer fight indicate that Bane simply wanted to prove himself the better man than Bruce. The worthy successor, if you will. This is furthered when Bane uses Gordon's speech to set himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the Dent Act (also by giving them leave to take back their city, giving its citizens what was rightfully theirs); its very much like Batman setting himself up as a symbol for those oppressed by the mob's grip on Gotham prior to and during Batman Begins.

Bane shared the jacket-grip mannerism with Ra's. Recall that Ra's plan involved spreading fear gas throughout Gotham, leaving the drugged citizens to tear their city down. Bane never gassed the citizens. Bane never forced them to rise up against the others in the city they believed to be their oppressors. He simply presented them with the means to do so. Bane allowed Gotham to show the world how depraved it could be*; the citizens and freed prisoners did so of their own volition. This allowed Talia a sort of innocence in passing judgment on Gotham; after all wouldn't the city and its people be better off dead? The prisoners and the others whose rose up would be dealt with; the families they tore apart and the people they wounded would be put out of their misery.

By allowing the people to effectively be their own executioners, Bane managed to triumph over Ra's who would've relied on an outside agent--the fear gas--to initiate Gotham's destruction. At the beginning of the second act (I count the 2nd act as everything after Bane breaks the Batman, up until Bruce rises from the Pit triumphant) Bane has proven himself superior to Batman. Midway into the second act he has one-upped Ra's overarching goal of destroying Gotham.

The difference between Ra's and Bane lies in their conviction. Ra's truly loved his wife and was trying to numb the pain of her death. Bane wanted to prove himself the worth successor to the League of Shadows and repay Talia's kindness (returning with the League to rescue him from the Pit) by helping her exact vengeance for Ra's death. Ra's Al Ghul wanted revenge for his wife's death. Bane sought apotheosis. Ironically its the Batman who achieves this through ensuring that the bomb didn't level Gotham.

The above is based on the dialogue and everything we're given in TDKR (the stuff for Bane and Talia, with some of Ra's. Ra's motive for being in the LoS is, of course, covered in BB).

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