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Old 10-08-2016, 11:05 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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The Punisher has an unkillable foe called Thorn that is kind of like that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(Marvel_Comics)
Okay, not a terrible concept. . . but could his name be any more random and unrelated?

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Old 10-28-2016, 04:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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You know, its unlikely, but that'd almost be a neat premise for a Punisher villain: a literally unkillable foe, who nonetheless needs to be "reassembled" after serious injury. If you cut off his head, he's dead until someone sticks the head back on. Blow him to pieces, and he's dead unless someone gathers them all up. Etc.
I think that could work. Especially since the Punisher has already been thrust into this world of ninjas & all other types of crazy ****. A concept like that would be the best way to explain how Jigsaw stays around. Anything else and he's just a dead man walking. Period.

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Old 10-28-2016, 09:06 PM   #28
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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I think that could work. Especially since the Punisher has already been thrust into this world of ninjas & all other types of crazy ****. A concept like that would be the best way to explain how Jigsaw stays around. Anything else and he's just a dead man walking. Period.
I think Frank should kill Jigsaw in this season, rather then the writers comming up silly excuses for him to stick around.

Again, I like the stories where Frank fights normal criminals and kills them in the end, rather then trying to have him fight zombies, cyborgs and demons.

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Old 10-28-2016, 11:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

He might not actually become "Jigsaw" until the very end. And a surgeon will say something like, "Your face has been turned into a Jigsaw puzzle."

In the second season of Daredevil, they had the Irish villain Finn Cooley. In the comics, he's a guy who had his face blown off by Punisher, but he lived through it. Same thing basically happened here, but it looks like he died in the show.

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Old 10-29-2016, 01:19 AM   #30
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He might not actually become "Jigsaw" until the very end. And a surgeon will say something like, "Your face has been turned into a Jigsaw puzzle."

In the second season of Daredevil, they had the Irish villain Finn Cooley. In the comics, he's a guy who had his face blown off by Punisher, but he lived through it. Same thing basically happened here, but it looks like he died in the show.
I am not sure its necessary to have Jigsaw in more then one season.

Having Punisher try and fail to kill Billy Russo all season will make Frank look pretty ineffective and I think some the excuses for Jigsaw still being around in the comics are pretty silly and would not work on TV.

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Old 10-29-2016, 09:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

Jigsaw got resurrected in the comics after the Punisher killed him. I'm pretty sure Jigsaw will not last beyond one season unless the Punisher kills him and the Hand is going to resurrect him again for some reason. I think it is unlikely that will happen though.

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Old 10-29-2016, 10:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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Jigsaw got resurrected in the comics after the Punisher killed him. I'm pretty sure Jigsaw will not last beyond one season unless the Punisher kills him and the Hand is going to resurrect him again for some reason. I think it is unlikely that will happen though.
Yeah and I think its pretty stupid that Jigsaw got resurrected in the comics and I really don't want to see that happen in this show.

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Old 10-30-2016, 08:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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I think Frank should kill Jigsaw in this season, rather then the writers comming up silly excuses for him to stick around.

Again, I like the stories where Frank fights normal criminals and kills them in the end, rather then trying to have him fight zombies, cyborgs and demons.
I prefer the more street-level, gritty, realistic Punisher stories too. But I guess it's just kind of hard to navigate around killing every single supervillain he encounters.

Especially one like Jigsaw, whom is one of his most prominent.

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Old 10-31-2016, 01:25 AM   #34
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I prefer the more street-level, gritty, realistic Punisher stories too. But I guess it's just kind of hard to navigate around killing every single supervillain he encounters.

Especially one like Jigsaw, whom is one of his most prominent.
That is why Max is my favorite version of the Punisher. just Frank vs. normal criminals who he usually kills at the end of the story, if they survive, they die if they decide to go another round with him. If he kills criminals in one story arc, there will be more waiting for him in the next one, he doesn't need a reoccurring rogues gallery, even in the 616 universe, almost every criminal he kills besides Jigsaw stays dead. Punisher doesn't need a reoccurring arch enemy and I don't think Jigsaw is quite interesting enough to justify having around this long, Frank does look ineffective if he can't kill this guy.

I don't find if they decide to some of the normal criminals he fights in the 616 universe as well as the Max universe, but I think they should stick with normal criminals who die at the end of the season.

I have no problem with Jigsaw, as long as Frank gets to kill him the right time and he stays dead. I don't want him resurrected because the show is based on a comic book.

I never seen a Punisher story that featured zombies or demons or cyborgs that was as good as a story where he fought normal criminals. Just because Punisher is a comic book character, doesn't mean we need to put over the top gimmicks in his stories. Just because you can do something in a comic, doesn't mean you should do it and really did anyone like that story where Frank was working for Angels and was killing demons, of course not, that just wasn't what the Punisher was about.


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Old 10-31-2016, 05:28 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

Calling the villains in Max normal is somewhat relative. A number of the villains in the Max run had trademark Ennis over the top cartoonish black comedic depictions. The Russian turned into a cyborg with boobs and Finn Cooley was another disfigured villain. Even the much loved Barracuda was a cheerful optimistic murder for hire cannibal.

I really like Ennis Max run like everyone else does but Ennis treated the Punisher as just an effective story device – a single-minded SOB to be thrown into absurd situations and against despicable villains in order to get laughs or primeval satisfaction. That works fine for a comic run but for the Netflix show that isn't going to be the direction they going given what we have already seen from the character.

Mike Baron's Punisher villains on the whole were possibly more grounded and realistic than Ennis villains and Baron was on high on cocaine when he was writing the Punisher

Baron had the Punisher go after people smugglers on the Mexican border. The first ten issues of Baron's run had the Punisher go after corrupt South Vietnamese generals, ghetto drug dealers, a Bolivian cartel, Missouri white supremacists, a cult led by a proto-Charles Manson, Arab terrorists, and Wall Street inside traders.

I would not say Punisher failing to kill Jigsaw makes him look incompetent. Billy Russo was supposed to be one of the best mob hitmen in the criminal underworld. Despite some depictions of him as a Punisher obsessed gangster thug, Jigsaw is a sharp strategist and tactician which makes sense as you need those skills to kill people and not get caught or killed yourself. Jigsaw is the Punisher's arch enemy because they are supposed to have a near matching skill set. Jigsaw even got brainwashed into taking the Punishers place in the comics.

Saracen, an Arab mercenary also survived a numerous run ins with the Punisher before Frank finally killed him. I don't think there is anything wrong with highly skilled criminals surviving encounters with the Punisher a few times before they finally get killed by him. It wouldn't be very entertaining if the Punisher easily killed every villain he encounters within one or two stories.

I agree the Punisher doesn't need a arch enemy but some comic writers and fans love their genre tropes.

They are using 616 and Max villains in the show. Kingpin, Jigsaw, Ray Schoonover (The Blacksmith), Finn Cooley, William Rawlins and Curtis Hoyle are comic villains we know they are using or have used so far. These guys are relatively grounded.

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Old 10-31-2016, 09:34 AM   #36
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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Calling the villains in Max normal is somewhat relative. A number of the villains in the Max run had trademark Ennis over the top cartoonish black comedic depictions. The Russian turned into a cyborg with boobs and Finn Cooley was another disfigured villain. Even the much loved Barracuda was a cheerful optimistic murder for hire cannibal.

I really like Ennis Max run like everyone else does but Ennis treated the Punisher as just an effective story device – a single-minded SOB to be thrown into absurd situations and against despicable villains in order to get laughs or primeval satisfaction. That works fine for a comic run but for the Netflix show that isn't going to be the direction they going given what we have already seen from the character.

Mike Baron's Punisher villains on the whole were possibly more grounded and realistic than Ennis villains and Baron was on high on cocaine when he was writing the Punisher

Baron had the Punisher go after people smugglers on the Mexican border. The first ten issues of Baron's run had the Punisher go after corrupt South Vietnamese generals, ghetto drug dealers, a Bolivian cartel, Missouri white supremacists, a cult led by a proto-Charles Manson, Arab terrorists, and Wall Street inside traders.

I would not say Punisher failing to kill Jigsaw makes him look incompetent. Billy Russo was supposed to be one of the best mob hitmen in the criminal underworld. Despite some depictions of him as a Punisher obsessed gangster thug, Jigsaw is a sharp strategist and tactician which makes sense as you need those skills to kill people and not get caught or killed yourself. Jigsaw is the Punisher's arch enemy because they are supposed to have a near matching skill set. Jigsaw even got brainwashed into taking the Punishers place in the comics.

Saracen, an Arab mercenary also survived a numerous run ins with the Punisher before Frank finally killed him. I don't think there is anything wrong with highly skilled criminals surviving encounters with the Punisher a few times before they finally get killed by him. It wouldn't be very entertaining if the Punisher easily killed every villain he encounters within one or two stories.

I agree the Punisher doesn't need a arch enemy but some comic writers and fans love their genre tropes.

They are using 616 and Max villains in the show. Kingpin, Jigsaw, Ray Schoonover (The Blacksmith), Finn Cooley, William Rawlins and Curtis Hoyle are comic villains we know they are using or have used so far. These guys are relatively grounded.

The Russian is not Max villain, he is a 616 villain who was created by Ennis.

I have no problem with using 616 villains as long as they are normal criminals and have no problem with some of the Mike Barron villains you mentioned show up.

I like Max the best because it stuck with the Frank vs. normal criminals stories (sure Finn Cooley and Barracuda were over the top, but they were not super natural the way Throne was, for example.)

I am sorry, I have seen Frank take out guys who are just as skilled, if not more skilled then Jigsaw. Jigsaw being skilled should buy him some time, but with Frank and his enemies, its kill or be killed, either you kill Frank or Frank kills you. Having Jigsaw around for decades is just ridiculous. It just seems like plot induced stupidity that he is still alive at this point.

This is the problem I have 616 Punisher, there some good ideas that get mirred under the need to introduce typical comic book tropes that don't work with Punisher.

I read an 616 arc where Frank fights a cult leader and that was creepy, but then an actual demon shows up and it takes me out of the story.


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Old 10-31-2016, 01:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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I read an 616 arc where Frank fights a cult leader and that was creepy, but then an actual demon shows up and it takes me out of the story.
Is that the Rev sand the The Church of the Saved story which was a comic version of Jim Jones and the Peoples church of Jamestown?

I agree it was kind of lame when they revealed Rev was worshiping Belasco and was a mutant.

The Punisher also ended up sleeping with the wife of the guy who asked him to rescue his wife from he cult as well if I remember correctly.

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Old 10-31-2016, 02:08 PM   #38
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Is that the Rev sand the The Church of the Saved story which was a comic version of Jim Jones and the Peoples church of Jamestown?

I agree it was kind of lame when they revealed Rev was worshiping Belasco and was a mutant.

The Punisher also ended up sleeping with the wife of the guy who asked him to rescue his wife from he cult as well if I remember correctly.
I didn't mind Rev being a mutant and him becoming a Satan worshiper is kinda creepy, but having an actual devil show up in the story makes things less creepy and just silly.

This is my big problem with 616 Punisher, there are cool ideas, but often they have to put in cliched comic book tropes, because its comic book and that almost never works. I think Ennis just made fun of stuff like that in his 616 run, which was why we saw crossovers that made the guest star look stupid and over the top villains, like Cyborg Russian.

I say adapt the more down to Earth villains from the 616 universe and mix them with the Max villains, but stick with normal human criminals, who Frank can and will kill.

I don't mind if the villains have gimmicks or physical advantages or something that lets them pose a threat to Frank, but don't go beyond that, don't introduce zombies, cyborgs, demons, etc.

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Old 11-03-2016, 01:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

This guy is killing it as a real prick on Westworld... if he's anywhere near as loathesome in this show as he is there, this should be some great casting.

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Old 11-03-2016, 03:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

I think Ben Barnes is at his best when he plays jerks or villains personally. He is one of those guys that got handsome leading men roles but suits roguish villains better. Barnes is doing such a good job on Westworld that I can't even picture Eion Bailey in the role.

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Old 11-03-2016, 08:18 PM   #41
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They should've cast Tobin Bell.

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Old 11-04-2016, 02:20 PM   #42
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I think Ben Barnes is at his best when he plays jerks or villains personally. He is one of those guys that got handsome leading men roles but suits roguish villains better. Barnes is doing such a good job on Westworld that I can't even picture Eion Bailey in the role.
Eion Bailey was supposed to play that character? Ugh. That guy was awful on Covert Affairs and I haven't seen him in anything since. He's like a poor man's Jason Patric. Which is sad because Jason Patric is the poor man's Jason Patric.

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Old 11-21-2016, 09:38 PM   #43
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So how should Jigsaw be portrayed in this show?

It seems like the writers go back and forth as portraying him as a real threat and a joke.

I would say Punisher works well against criminals who are just vile and have no redeeming values, it is really cathartic to see Punisher kill evil scum bags who deserve it.

So I would have Jigsaw who is an evil scum bag with no redeeming values, you don't feel sorry for him the way you would Fisk or Cottonmouth.

So how evil should he be? What kind of crimes should he commit?

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Old 11-22-2016, 02:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

Well this Jigsaw is going to be a former Special Forces soldier so he will be a formidable threat. They are also making him The Punisher's best friend so they will probably show case some depth to him and their relationship.

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Old 11-22-2016, 05:19 PM   #45
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

There might be an emphasis on that he has the same unstoppable will to survive that Frank has.

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Old 11-24-2016, 08:22 PM   #46
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

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Well this Jigsaw is going to be a former Special Forces soldier so he will be a formidable threat. They are also making him The Punisher's best friend so they will probably show case some depth to him and their relationship.
That doesn't speak to his personality though.

I don't think Jigsaw will be a real friend to Frank in this show, he may want to recruit Frank and failing that will try to kill him.

So should Jigsaw have any redeeming qualities or should he be an irredeemable monster? If he is a monster, how vile should his crimes be?

I hope he is far less campy then his 2008 movie counterpart.

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Old 11-30-2016, 01:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

We still don't know what capacity he will be Jigsaw though. He might not actually get mutilated and become Jigsaw until the end.

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Old 11-30-2016, 09:03 AM   #48
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We still don't know what capacity he will be Jigsaw though. He might not actually get mutilated and become Jigsaw until the end.
I don't know if Jigsaw is interesting enough to keep around for more the one season, I prefer a Punisher who kills his enemies and moves on to others, rather then writers coming up with justifications to keep villains around, when Punisher should have killed them long ago.

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Old 11-30-2016, 07:17 PM   #49
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I don't know if Jigsaw is interesting enough to keep around for more the one season, I prefer a Punisher who kills his enemies and moves on to others, rather then writers coming up with justifications to keep villains around, when Punisher should have killed them long ago.
Well, Kilgrave definitely was...but...

As for that, I dunno. I feel like Frank should learn that he can't just shoot and kill all of his problems away.

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Old 12-16-2016, 01:10 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ben Barnes IS Jigsaw

How did I miss this casting? He played a good a-hole in Westworld.

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