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Old 05-29-2017, 08:25 AM   #651
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There's nothing wrong with going for thematics in films like this. There's nothing wrong with Lex having that philosophy in concept.

But it came off half baked in the movie itself in terms of execution. It was merely lip service. It all comes across like a snobby try hard philosophiser who did a 2 week college course and now thinks he is cultured and above us plebs. Ultimately it just boils down to Lex trying to make Superman appear fallible and human because his all powerful dad treated him like crap. Not really that deep.

It would've been more interesting if they went with a Lex who genuinely believed that Superman holding humanities hand stunted mankind's potential for growth and greatness. That he resented Superman for his natural gifts, whereas man has to work hard and improve himself through will and determination. This could've tied in nicely with the nature of Batman. Who is the pinnacle of human achievement through sheer willpower. But this wasn't even touched on in the movie.

In actuality Lex's plot only works because Superman and Batman were fools. Although i did like how he tried to wind Bruce up with the letters. But that also opens up another flaw... how does he know Bruce is Batman? Trust me, i dont like being spoon fed but something as important as that shouldnt just be left for the viewer to connect the dots.

In the comics it's called "plot/character induced stupidity". It's actually pretty common so it's kinda accepted, to a degree. But you can't really get away with it in movies.

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Old 05-29-2017, 09:03 AM   #652
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There's nothing wrong with going for thematics in films like this. There's nothing wrong with Lex having that philosophy in concept.

But it came off half baked in the movie itself in terms of execution. It was merely lip service. It all comes across like a snobby try hard philosophiser who did a 2 week college course and now thinks he is cultured and above us plebs. Ultimately it just boils down to Lex trying to make Superman appear fallible and human because his all powerful dad treated him like crap. Not really that deep.

It would've been more interesting if they went with a Lex who genuinely believed that Superman holding humanities hand stunted mankind's potential for growth and greatness. That he resented Superman for his natural gifts, whereas man has to work hard and improve himself through will and determination. This could've tied in nicely with the nature of Batman. Who is the pinnacle of human achievement through sheer willpower. But this wasn't even touched on in the movie.
I find both motivations interesting. Neither of them is inherently more interesting or more complex than the other. Is revenge less complex than jealousy? I don't think so. Besides, the jealousy angle was "touched on" in the movie.

Lex's speech to the politicians:

"These exceptional beings live among us. The bases of our myths. Gods among men upon our...our little blue planet here. You don't have to use the silver bullet, but if you forge one..well, then we don't have to depend upon the kindness of monsters."

Lex's speech at the library fundraiser:

"Books are knowledge, and knowledge is power. And I am...Heh heh heh, no. I, umm. No, what am I? Alright, what am I suppose to say? The bitter sweet pain among man is having knowledge with no power. Because...Because that is paradoxical..Prometheus went with us, and he ruined Zeus' plan to destroy mankind and for that, he was given a thunderbolt."

Quote:
In the comics it's called "plot/character induced stupidity". It's actually pretty common so it's kinda accepted, to a degree. But you can't really get away with it in movies.
Bruce's foolishness isn't just random stupidity. His blindness is brought on by a complex response to trauma. And if you can't get away with telling a story of how a good and intelligent man can be damaged by PTSD, then that is a problem for me.


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Old 05-29-2017, 10:08 AM   #653
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Not necessarily talking about Bruce there. I'm talking about Kal.

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Old 05-29-2017, 10:37 AM   #654
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Not necessarily talking about Bruce there. I'm talking about Kal.
How was Superman stupid? My reading of him as a character was that any blind spots he may have had were more a consequence of his idealism, optimism, and naivete than genuine stupidity. In many iterations of the character, love and emotion are weaknesses. Lois is a blind spot. If Clark was stupid to not speak to the public, well he did try to speak. If Clark was stupid to not see the bomb, he didn't see it because he wasn't looking. He didn't look because he believed and trusted that humanity would be better.

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Old 05-30-2017, 04:07 AM   #655
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One needs to ask themselves if the same batman that exists in the comics today, the one who is superman's (maybe best) friend, believes superman is capable of becoming a threat that could one day wipe out humanity, the answer is plainly yes. Which is why there are so many instances of batman's many contingencies against such an outcome. But why is that batman not actively trying to destroy that superman...

You can't eliminate the threat possibility ever, let alone with a 'word' or all that came with it, it will always be there. What you/they can do is change the character and the characters views on the circumstance, turn him from hopeless to hopeful. So you have to ask yourself what is the difference between that batman and the tired cynical triggered one presented in this film prior to that revelation. When Bruce lays out the threat that is superman, Alfred response never disputes that possibility but retorts on the matter of superman's character. Because unlike Bruce, alfred has humanized superman, whereas Bruce at this particular point in his angry career of loss and mud and giving chances, has not(its there during his dehumanizing dialogue in the fight). All that comes with Lois revealing a mother with a human name so closely closely associated with bruce's own trauma and superman begging for her life not much unlike thomas/bruce did, is; Like in the comics, superman, is a man worth giving a chance and not just darkseid/zod playing nice. Layered into the 'what have i become' dual theme that maybe makes that moment not a some complete joke.

In conclusion, the scene is never about changing that circumstance and when people try to read it that way they strawman the actual film. In simpler terms, the revelation arcs bruce into a view more similar to the one alfred has and into the bruce we see in the comics, one that actually has..hope. Who better than an alien to prove men are still good, more pertinently, who better than Superman to pull batman out of the disillusionment that believing in the batman was always a 'beautiful lie'
HOpe that helps.

my personal read



Good post.


In my own personal interpretation, Bruce never wanted to go through with it. He knew deep down that it was wrong, but he blinded himself with anger and fear. He had lost all hope and faith in himself and was trying to force himself into that moment, shutting out Alfred and his own conscience, getting lost in his planning, his training, the talk of being a hunter, the aggression and testosterone of the actual fight, trying to look at Superman as not being a human. All trying to force himself to go through with that one act. Would he have actually gone through with it if Clark hadn't said that or if Lois hadn't shown up in that moment? We don't know. Would he have wound up regretting it and dove further into his depression and hopelessness until there was no coming back? Almost certainly.

He was building and building, trying to force himself into that moment, blocking out the voices that told him it was wrong, but that moment of complete vulnerability, and hearing the name that dominates his nightmares, seeing himself as that scared little boy, remembering the vow that he made, it triggered something in him and he then knew that he couldn't do it, that there had to be another way. In that moment, he chose hope. Light in the darkness.

In other words, I don't see it like in that moment, he just suddenly had a complete transformation. I see it as something he knew all along, but was blocking it out, because at this point he was so broken and lost in the darkness, in anger and fear and hopelessness. He had been going through this internal struggle the entire time, and that entire situation was the mirror that he needed to look into to say "What have I become?" And that's when he knew that he couldn't go through with it.

And maybe the film didn't do a good enough job depicting that internal struggle. But that's what I saw in the drinking and sleeping around, the conversations with Alfred, the planning, the intense training. I saw it all as him trying to block out that voice that said "This isn't the way."

"Diamond absolutes. But things fall. And what falls is fallen. We've always been criminals. We were hunters. The world only makes sense if you force it to" He was trying to force that decision to make sense, trying to force himself to go through with it.

But, if people still enjoy reducing all of it to their Martha jokes, then have at it. Just a difference in perception of the movie and there's probably nothing either side could say to change the other's viewpoint, at this point.



Edit: Sorry if my post got a little repetitive lol (but then again, so do the Martha jokes)


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Old 05-30-2017, 09:17 AM   #656
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There's nothing wrong with going for thematics in films like this. There's nothing wrong with Lex having that philosophy in concept.
But it came off half baked in the movie itself in terms of execution. It was merely lip service. It all comes across like a snobby try hard philosophiser who did a 2 week college course and now thinks he is cultured and above us plebs.

The thing is, only Luthor really comes across that way. And he's supposed to. He is very much a character who thinks he is the smartest person in the room.

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Ultimately it just boils down to Lex trying to make Superman appear fallible and human because his all powerful dad treated him like crap. Not really that deep.
Lex mistrusts those with power, who he cannot control.

It's not meant to be especially deep. It's meant to be relevant to the character.

Being abused creates a resentment of those with power.

It's also more or less the classic Luthor character motivation of insecurity when confronted with power he cannot control.

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It would've been more interesting if they went with a Lex who genuinely believed that Superman holding humanities hand stunted mankind's potential for growth and greatness. That he resented Superman for his natural gifts, whereas man has to work hard and improve himself through will and determination. This could've tied in nicely with the nature of Batman. Who is the pinnacle of human achievement through sheer willpower. But this wasn't even touched on in the movie.
Maybe. Or maybe that would have been one more idea to many. And maybe it will be touched on in future films.

Before LEX LUTHOR: MAN OF STEEL came out, the comics hadn't really explored the idea you're referring to for like, seventy-plus years. It's still not really Lex Luthor's primary motivation for hating and opposing Superman, at least it wasn't during the comics I've read recently. They went with the motivation audiences are most familiar with.

Past that, Luthor doesn't have to have a single motivation, and there's nothing that says his motivations cannot evolve over the course of this franchise/universe.

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Old 05-30-2017, 07:06 PM   #657
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This would be ideal for me:

I do like the father/God issues that motivated Lex in this film. I also really love the idea that he has strived for human perfection, he wants to be the provider, he wants the rest of the world to look upwards to him, to rely on his "generosity", and he has a hatred for Superman, jealous of his power, and jealous that people look upon him as a savior.

I think these motivations were kind of explored in the film. Ideally, I'd have liked them to explore them all deeper (because I'd also like a deeper exploration of Superman's arc, I think the film may have worked out better in two parts, but different convo).

I think I also may have preferred a different actor and slightly different portrayal.

I do like the idea of a younger Lex, with no respect for the old ways. My ideal Luthor would be a mix of:

Marlo Stanfield from The Wire: Young, brash, aggressive and ruthless. Always with a steely, ice cold demeanor. Not physically imposing, but frightening, because just beneath the composed demeanor, lies a rage bubbling up to the surface any time he is challenged, his reputation is at stake, or things don't go his way (and I think they had a little of that element, like the subtle change in demeanor when Finch told him they weren't allowing the import, but he immediately composes himself).

A little of Daniel Day Lewis from Gangs Of New York and There Will Be Blood. In a similar way, he can be charismatic, but there is a frightening psychopath just beneath the surface, when things don't go his way.


I just feel like, with the character of Luthor, there is every bit as much potential for a villain who is on the level of Ledger's Joker, in terms of being compelling and frightening. I don't even wanna think about the untapped potential (thus far) of Leto in the role of Joker....

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Old 05-31-2017, 08:05 AM   #658
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How was Superman stupid? My reading of him as a character was that any blind spots he may have had were more a consequence of his idealism, optimism, and naivete than genuine stupidity. In many iterations of the character, love and emotion are weaknesses. Lois is a blind spot. If Clark was stupid to not speak to the public, well he did try to speak. If Clark was stupid to not see the bomb, he didn't see it because he wasn't looking. He didn't look because he believed and trusted that humanity would be better.

Yep. I could really relate to him . For example, who doesn't get thrown off their game and really emotional when you try and do something out the good of your heart and get slammed, accused of things, disliked and probed for secret hidden agendas. Honestly its happened to me more than once and instant rage monkey time.

Maybe its just us kids form small towns who move to the big city?

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Old 05-31-2017, 03:16 PM   #659
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Welp, with Wonder Woman sitting at 94% on RT, I hope this can finally put the notion of a critics conspiracy against the DCEU to rest.

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Old 05-31-2017, 06:44 PM   #660
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Her tossing that spear (the only known weapon that can kill Superman) into a water hole where any random joe or jane could find it was all sorts of dumb.
What else could she have done with it for the time being?

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Then having to cut away from the fight so we could watch her try and fail to recover it was even worse.
At least she figured out it was useful on her own and was trying to recover it when Batman and Superman had forgotten it in favor of fighting a futile battle with Doomsday. It shows she was smart and brave.

Quote:
Then after superman has recovered it she just tosses it away without any regard for the kryptonite possibly breaking and rendering the spear ineffective.
Kryptonite isn't brittle, and that would have been obvious to Lois since she had previously seen Batman toss it away without breaking it when he chose not to kill Superman. She was trying to remove it from Superman's presence as quickly as possible so he could regain his strength.

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Old 06-09-2017, 02:39 AM   #661
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I just need a place to type my one major annoyance out into words about this movie. I hope anyone reads this and agrees...its bothered me since I saw the movie opening day

Yes, i realize i am months or years late
Yes, i realize this has pprobably FOR SURE and DEFINITELY been brought up before but I want to get MY thought down on paper/forum

Watching BVS for the 5th maybe 6th time and I have to get out my biggest complaint that again, I KNOW, you crazy fans probably have brought up before and I cant think of a logical way that these filmmakers didnt take this to heart..

The very FIRST time we see Batman in full suit in all his glory is 1 HOUR AND 20 MINUTES into this film. First of all, this is the first live action Batman since the billion dollar Dark Knight trilogy franchise and every big Batman fan couldn't wait to see a new reimagination on the big screen because we love BATMAN. This was a HUGE deal to debut the newest dark knight with Affleck under the cowl. Now, let's go through it.

We first see him as a blurry then rushed away shadow when the cops see him as they are freeing sex slave prisoners. Then we see Bruce staring at just the costume in his closet. Then the first time we see him in all his glory is in a trench coat with goggles and shooting guns in a dream sequence- not the rebooted batman debut anyone would ever want. Then we see him atop the crane at the docks from behind only, next we see him only from the dark shoulders and head up. FINALLY, at 1 hour and 20 minutes we see the new full batman costume when he stands up out of the batmobile face to face with superman. SO THE VERY FIRST TIME WE SEE OUR NEWEST ITERATION OF FILM BATMAN IS 1 HOUR 20 MIN INTO THE FILM DURING A STANDING DIALOGUE SCENE. AND, this scene was shown on Conan Obrien before the movie even came out as promotion!! So the very first time we see our new batman in his new suit was shown on talk shows before it even came out smh. There is no money shot of batman, no big moment of him appearing in all his glory with the beautiful new suit. Nothing. What a terrible way to debut your new batman and THIS is the main reason I cant take this movie seriously.

I could type forever on this but I'll stop. Such a obvious moment to get right that no one seemed to think about getting right.


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Old 06-09-2017, 02:48 AM   #662
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The very FIRST time we see Batman in full suit in all his glory is 1 HOUR AND 20 MINUTES into this film.
We don't see Wonder Woman in all of her costumed glory until 1 hour and 15 minutes into her first appearance (chronologically) in the DCEU.

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Old 06-09-2017, 04:27 AM   #663
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We don't see Wonder Woman in all of her costumed glory until 1 hour and 15 minutes into her first appearance (chronologically) in the DCEU.
Wonder woman was a cherry on top of this movie. Also, its worse because we did see batman several times, as i pointed out, earlier in this film but always in some half/hidden/shadowed/trench coated/terrible way. They didnt delay his reveal, they minimized it and destroyed it

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Old 06-09-2017, 05:08 AM   #664
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Just reading For Tomorrow for 5th/6th time and the way Superman is presented in that really reminds me of the one Snyder has given us. He even refers to Lois as 'his world' several times. He has a bit more of an edge like Cavill's Supes as well. It was one of my favourite Superman stories well before BvS came out but I did notice the similarities on my first viewing. I think Snyder took more from the comics than people give him credit for.

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Old 06-09-2017, 12:34 PM   #665
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Wonder woman was a cherry on top of this movie. Also, its worse because we did see batman several times, as i pointed out, earlier in this film but always in some half/hidden/shadowed/trench coated/terrible way. They didnt delay his reveal, they minimized it and destroyed it
No, I mean in Wonder Woman's own movie she didn't appear in costume until an hour and fifteen minutes in. Unless I'm misunderstanding your response, the way Wonder Woman's outfit is treated in her own solo film is equivalent. We see pieces of it, glimpses, but not the whole thing until the No Man's Land scene. With Batman it makes even more sense, because we're seeing him the way the people in the world see him, which helps us understand why he can be seen as scary and mysterious to people. It contrasts with Superman's very public role, too. So, to me, it makes sense and is in line with other debuts like Wonder Woman's. It's fine if you feel otherwise, and you want to agree to disagree.

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Old 06-09-2017, 06:37 PM   #666
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Anyone who says we didn't see Batman in all his glory until that far into the film...

...isn't a Batman fan.

The scene with the cops is PURE creature of the night Batman.

We didn't see Batman "standing around in his suit" until an hour and 20 minutes in.

We absolutely saw The Batman in action, and in all his glory. There's no "blurry" about it. You can clearly see a well defined shot of Batman in full suit during the sequence, though the shot is admittedly somewhat brief.

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Old 06-09-2017, 07:10 PM   #667
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Watching MOS again and boy does Snyder love his call backs. Jor EL dies in the same fashion as Kal with a blade into his heart.

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Old 06-10-2017, 08:48 AM   #668
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Anyone who says we didn't see Batman in all his glory until that far into the film...

...isn't a Batman fan.

The scene with the cops is PURE creature of the night Batman.

We didn't see Batman "standing around in his suit" until an hour and 20 minutes in.

We absolutely saw The Batman in action, and in all his glory. There's no "blurry" about it. You can clearly see a well defined shot of Batman in full suit during the sequence, though the shot is admittedly somewhat brief.
I am not a huge Batman fan, but even I know this. Him being in the shadows and creature of the night so to speak is a big part of his gimmick.

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Watching MOS again and boy does Snyder love his call backs. Jor EL dies in the same fashion as Kal with a blade into his heart.
Wasn't Jor-El stabbed in his side?

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Old 06-10-2017, 11:31 AM   #669
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Adam West was a pillar of my early youth and he entertained so many generations. I sense he had long ago come to terms with his fame as the TV Batman of the 1960's. He was a great ambassador for the Bat fandom and his later years work in comedy ranging from working in live action with Conan O'Brien to voice over work in animation showed a skillful humor. There is always going to be a fai amount of people that think his version of Batman was damaging to the character, despite the heights of fame it brought to a character who was waning in his home media of comics at the time. West's Batman was on a campy show, no doubt, but really his Batman did encompass the things that instantly strike a child as cool about the character. The dual identity as playboy Bruce Wayne, the gadgets, the cave, the batmobile and other aesthetically pleasing vehicles, climbing up buildings, having fisticuffs in dark alleys or in exotic locations, the batarangs, the faithful Ward, the mystery solving... That's all in the show when you think about it and as a child there was no two ways about it, that Batman was cool. West's show and his performance kept the fires burning until the culture was ready to have a live action Batman more in line with the conception of the character as seen when handled by the likes of Finger, O'Neil, Englehart and of course Miller.

My thoughts go out to the various colleagues, friends and family of the man. He certainly enriched my childhood and made me laugh consistently as an adult. Rest In Peace Mr. Adam West.

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Old 06-11-2017, 12:14 AM   #670
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Anyone who says we didn't see Batman in all his glory until that far into the film...

...isn't a Batman fan.

The scene with the cops is PURE creature of the night Batman.

We didn't see Batman "standing around in his suit" until an hour and 20 minutes in.

We absolutely saw The Batman in action, and in all his glory. There's no "blurry" about it. You can clearly see a well defined shot of Batman in full suit during the sequence, though the shot is admittedly somewhat brief.
Lol so I guess since I wasnt ok with the debut of the first new batman since the dark knight trilogy being reduced to a blur, then right after a trenchcoat/goggle wearing gunman than you're right - i guess im not a batman fan smh

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Old 06-11-2017, 01:30 PM   #671
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Adam West was a pillar of my early youth and he entertained so many generations. I sense he had long ago come to terms with his fame as the TV Batman of the 1960's. He was a great ambassador for the Bat fandom and his later years work in comedy ranging from working in live action with Conan O'Brien to voice over work in animation showed a skillful humor. There is always going to be a fai amount of people that think his version of Batman was damaging to the character, despite the heights of fame it brought to a character who was waning in his home media of comics at the time. West's Batman was on a campy show, no doubt, but really his Batman did encompass the things that instantly strike a child as cool about the character. The dual identity as playboy Bruce Wayne, the gadgets, the cave, the batmobile and other aesthetically pleasing vehicles, climbing up buildings, having fisticuffs in dark alleys or in exotic locations, the batarangs, the faithful Ward, the mystery solving... That's all in the show when you think about it and as a child there was no two ways about it, that Batman was cool. West's show and his performance kept the fires burning until the culture was ready to have a live action Batman more in line with the conception of the character as seen when handled by the likes of Finger, O'Neil, Englehart and of course Miller.

My thoughts go out to the various colleagues, friends and family of the man. He certainly enriched my childhood and made me laugh consistently as an adult. Rest In Peace Mr. Adam West.
I'm going to be controversial, but I still think Adam West is the best live action Batman. He was so smug and authoritative, and I like that in a Batman "They're drinkers, Robin, but they're people too!"

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Old 06-14-2017, 08:08 PM   #672
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Probably seen before, but I just saw this on Reel Rejects.

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Old 06-14-2017, 08:29 PM   #673
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What Jessica Jones Gets Right That Batman V. Superman Got Wrong

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Old 06-15-2017, 03:03 AM   #674
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:38 AM   #675
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