Are we underestimating everything and everyone?

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

You clearly can't distinguish the difference between a 'disappointment' and a 'failure'. WB and Legendary publicly stated that they still turned a profit after Superman Returns crossed 200 million (domestically). Now, was it the performer that WB/Legendary had hoped for? No. However, was Superman Returns a failure? Not even close. Out of the 191m made overseas, WB/Legendary received about 80-85m. So please, explain to me how Superman Returns was a box office 'failure'?

Bluntly, they are lying. For them to turn a profit after 200M domestic, the movies total budget would have to have been something on the order of 100M dollar, or a little more. There is no way they were receiving 100% of the gross from domestic ticket sales, and that is what it would take for their story to be true.

[brainchild81]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

His life story and quite a lot of his demeanour. At the time of JL John's actual origin was an architect, and Hal had been a fighter pilot. John was a soldier in JL(U), and acted quite a bit like Hal because of a soldiers sense of duty. But he as the series progressed he did get more like John, but he was always an amalgamation.

I'd think you'd get that sense of duty from being in the GL Corps anyway. A pilot & a marine are 2 different things. I really don't see where he's based on Hal @all. He's been labeled as "stoic". I don't hear people use that term w/Hal

[Zionite1]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

The big draw of Justice League is seeing Superman and Batman on screen together, they should promote the s**t out of that.

I still say you don't have to do solo movies building towards n Superman & Batman been on the screen together is why cause people will want to see it anyway.

Theres my problem with the idea.The appeal of a Justice League should be the joy of seeing the entire team not just seeing Superman and Batman-This isnt the world finest.The last thing we want is in our rush to see a Jl movie we end up creating a Superman/Batman movie with some heroes tagiing along.That isnt a Jl movie i dont care how finncially succesful itself.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by Zionite1

Theres my problem with the idea.The appeal of a Justice League should be the joy of seeing the entire team not just seeing Superman and Batman-This isnt the world finest.The last thing we want is in our rush to see a Jl movie we end up creating a Superman/Batman movie with some heroes tagiing along.That isnt a Jl movie i dont care how finncially succesful itself.

Thats not what I mean but thats the thing thats gonna draw the audiences in. You can have the rest of the cast share the same amount of exposure in the film but when promting promote Batman and Superman together.

[LibidoLoca]

Sad but true, if anything will sell this film it's a Superman/Batman team up, so I guess whore it out as much as possible to get the GA excited. Hopefully, they don't take too much focus away from the other leaguers.

[ashleytdkr]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

If you can't get Green Lantern right, I don't have much confidence that you will get him right in a big crossover with Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman and the Flash.

Not only do you have to make them all work in live action, you also have to make them interacting work.

Could easily say the same about Marvel's green friend Hulk, but that seem to work much better when he was with the team.

[ashleytdkr]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

Bluntly, they are lying. For them to turn a profit after 200M domestic, the movies total budget would have to have been something on the order of 100M dollar, or a little more. There is no way they were receiving 100% of the gross from domestic ticket sales, and that is what it would take for their story to be true.

And the ticket sales are theres. The budget of the movie pays the actors, the crew, the costume desginers, the director, the special effect ect ect. The actors get payed up front. What they take from the Box Office and Dvd sales, it entirely theres.

[Zionite1]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Thats not what I mean but thats the thing thats gonna draw the audiences in. You can have the rest of the cast share the same amount of exposure in the film but when promting promote Batman and Superman together.

I see your piont.My piont though was that if the Jl had solo movies leading up to it,the main draw wld be Superman,Bats,WW,Gl and Flash.No Solos and we are stuck with Superman/Batman being the only draws-In otherwords wed be stuck with a Jl-movie with less appeal.Now that doesnt mean it wont be great it just means it willbe less than its potential

[metaphysician]

Originally Posted by ashleytdkr

And the ticket sales are theres. The budget of the movie pays the actors, the crew, the costume desginers, the director, the special effect ect ect. The actors get payed up front. What they take from the Box Office and Dvd sales, it entirely theres.

Okay, let me try explaining this again:

When you pay 10 dollars for a movie ticket? The studio does not get 10 dollars. The amount varies depending on the movie and the date, but on average, the studio gets about 5 dollars.

So, take all those tickets sold, and all the money they brought in. Divide that by half. That is approximately how much money the studio gets. Which seeing as Superman Returns grossed 391M, that would be approximate 195M dollars of actual revenue to the studio.

From that revenue, they now have to pay off their costs of production: salaries for everyone involved, percentages to important actors, set designers, SFX houses, director, etc ( or more precisely, pay back the amount they already spent on such ). They also have to pay back the amount they spent on marketing, but that is almost always unrevealed to the public.

Nonetheless, we do know how much they spent on production: 270M dollars. Which means, taking that actual revenue they got from ticket sales, they are left with a profit of. . . approximately -75M dollars. Now, granted, some of that production cost tally is actually sunk costs from prior production efforts, that shouldn't really be counted against Superman Returns. The usual estimates I've heard for actual production cost of just this movie is more like 230M. Which means they "only" lost 35M dollars on it. Except they didn't, because they also spent *something* on marketing, so they likely did lose 75M dollars, or even more.

I find it unlikely to the point of impossibility that they came close to breaking even on DVD sales. If WB says they broke even in theaters? Then they are *lying*: either about the amount of money the movie actually cost, the amount of tickets sold in theaters, or ( most likely by far ) the fact of the movie making a profit.

[Sun_Down]

I think most people around here overestimate the importance of "build-up." I doubt that even 25% of Avengers viewers saw Captain America, for example. I bet most of them saw at least one Iron Man movie. But you definitely didn't need to see all, or really any, of the preceding films to be able to follow the plot of Avengers. My girlfriend had literally seen none of them and she had a great time.

I think certain fans are just really hung up on the "DC Movieverse" as a concept and will not accept anything less than what Marvel has been able to pull off. Fact is, you don't have any "backstory" on the characters of MOST movies you see, even ones with large ensemble casts. No reason to say that we NEED build-up of any variety. Yes, Marvel's approach has worked, but there's more than one way to put butts in the seats.

[Zionite1]

I think a JL movie can very much succeed without solos after all it has Bats and Supes.But there is no doubt in my mind it will have succeeded a whole lot more with solo movies leading up to it.

The appeal of seeing JL movie without solos-Bats and supes
The appeal of seeing JL movie with solos-Bats,supes,flash,GL,WW.

look at both and you can see why the solo movie approach is superior.The plus side is that with the spinoff approach is that its means the spinoff movie are less likely to fail financially(that doesnt mean theyll be good though).

My own main concern with the JL movie is that it might interfere with the MOS trilogy-petty i know but im a supes fan.
I mean, suppose that JLA is a miracle and that it does succeed.....and that other superheroes are established within MOS's world...then that means that whatever solo threats Superman faces will have to be small scale since there's no way that that they allow Superman to face anything that's big enough to threaten the entire planet without the team being there..meaning that Brainiac and Darkseid won't be villains within Superman's solo franchise.

I honestly don't think it's worth it. We have never gotten a great Superman franchise and I could give a rat's ass about any JLA film..successful or not since it wouldn't be worth it imho.
Theres also the fact that Nolan/Goyer are only interested in writing stories about Superman as the sole hero and if they have to compromise because of JLA...well i see Nolan walking.

Although they cld avoiid this problem by Setting JLA in a different Timeline as the MOS trilogy.That way neither stories disturb each other.MOS will feature stories about a rookie superman in a world with no superheroes,JLA will feature a veteran superman leading a world of superheroes.

The only problem with this is that Supermans status quo in JLA will give away what his status quo will be after the end of MOS trilogy.

[Project862006]

^not really many people here would probably prefer a world's finest before jl anyways

[Bruce_Begins]

I seriously doubt that more than 70 % of SHH members saw All the Marvel Studios movies (IM, TIH, IM2, Thor, Cap. America) leading upto Avengers.

As for GA, I am sure not many had seen all of them.

[Llama_Shepherd]

It would have been maximum around 20% (given the grosses of the films) of the audience. And that's very generous.

[Zarex]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

It would have been maximum around 20% (given the grosses of the films) of the audience. And that's very generous.

That seems low to me. Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk have been on heavy cable rotation on FX for years. IM2 has been the biggest hit on Netflix since its release. Add in the people that people that watched Thor and Cap via dvd purchase or rental, On-Demand, Epix, Netflix or just stole it and I think it's approaching 50%. And I would guess most newbies to the MCU received a thorough recap from friends, relatives or Wikipedia prior to watching the Avengers.

[ЯɘvlveR]

the idea of needing solo movies in order to expand the universe is a little overrated. regardless of them previously coexisting on film or not, they need to have a reason to come together. its not as if right from the get go they'll go into beating ass mode. the story has to be developed. might as well have them develop those relationships in a jl film.

[Llama_Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Zarex

That seems low to me. Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk have been on heavy cable rotation on FX for years. IM2 has been the biggest hit on Netflix since its release. Add in the people that people that watched Thor and Cap via dvd purchase or rental, On-Demand, Epix, Netflix or just stole it and I think it's approaching 50%. And I would guess most newbies to the MCU received a thorough recap from friends, relatives or Wikipedia prior to watching the Avengers.

It may seem low, but it also seems realistic. Don't forget most people who would have bought the DVD would have already seen it when it was initially released. Not every film can have the home sales that Titanic had.

If people got a recap from friends prior to seeing Avengers, then Avengers will work as the perfect recap for Justice League.

[Zarex]

Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd

If people got a recap from friends prior to seeing Avengers, then Avengers will work as the perfect recap for Justice League.

Word of mouth won't help as much with the JL because even ardent fans won't know for certain which version of the characters will be incorporated into the film until they actually see them on the screen. Will we be seeing the Bale/Nolan version of the Dark Knight, the less realistic interpretation of Keaton/Burton or something in between? Will GL and Superman be continuations of their more recent on screen appearances or something altogether different? The histories, relationships, personalities, powers and weaponry of the film versions of Hulk, Thor, Iron Man and Cap were well defined in the lead up films, and the JL does not have this luxury.

Though many fans of the superhero genre decry the constant stream of origin films, they are necessary. Let's face it, sane people tend not to don a mask and cape, put on a colorful costume with a symbol on the chest and fight crime/terrorism/aliens, which is why so many great writers (including Gaiman, Miller & Moore) have shown a link between "superheroing" and mental illness. Origin films are essential to let the audience know that the odd choices the character have made are perfectly reasonable once you've heard his or her story. I don't think the JL movie can work without them.