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Old 12-14-2017, 07:03 AM   #76
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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Oh yeah, I'm not denying that at all. But it's not on the same level as those three are for me. It's a fabulous film, but has a poor cgi heavy third act that drags it down. WW is definitely in that next close tier though, along with Logan, Spider-man, Batman 89 etc.
I'd say it's a tier above those in terms of impact.

1) It proved that female comic book movies could be successful
2) It was the first directed female comic book movie
3) It was the highest grossing movie of all time directed by a female

... I'm getting bored writing these out. You know the score. There were tons of records and achievements and may pave the way for more opportunities for females. It could end up one of the most culturally significant movies of all.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:06 AM   #77
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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Oh yeah, I'm not denying that at all. But it's not on the same level as those three are for me. It's a fabulous film, but has a poor cgi heavy third act that drags it down. WW is definitely in that next tier though, along with Logan, Spider-man, Batman 89 etc.
It matters more than those. No Man's Land scene meant something to people. This is not about CGI, it's about impact of the film.

Do men really not understand why us women consider this film so important and why the flaws of it don't matter?

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:11 AM   #78
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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It matters more than those. No Man's Land scene meant something to people. This is not about CGI, it's about impact of the film.

Do men really not understand why us women consider this film so important and why the flaws of it don't matter?
This. It's not even about the quality of the film. It's the impact it has had and what it could mean for others in terms of breaking barriers, creating opportunities, changing the way films are made etc.

If Tommy Wisseau's "The Room" had somehow been a groundbreaking film that had huge cultural impact, then even though it might be considered one of the worst movies made, it could still potentially be considered for the NFR.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:31 AM   #79
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It matters more than those. No Man's Land scene meant something to people. This is not about CGI, it's about impact of the film.

Do men really not understand why us women consider this film so important and why the flaws of it don't matter?
Jesus. I’m not suggesting Wonder Woman didn’t have a strong cultural impact. Of course it did. And it was a wonderful thing to see. But, I have to look at a movie as a whole, rather than just one facet of it. WW is a great movie, but it’s not as good as those other three. I understand perfectly why it’s an important film for women, and am delighted it exists, and hope it starts a trend that has been a long time coming in Hollywood. But is it as good a film as STM, TDK or TA? No. Not as far as I’m concerned, and I’m not sure that I’d put it in the NFR because of the flaws it has as a motion picture.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:34 AM   #80
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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Jesus. .


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I’m not suggesting Wonder Woman didn’t have a strong cultural impact. Of course it did. And it was a wonderful thing to see. But, I have to look at a movie as a whole, rather than just one facet of it. WW is a great movie, but it’s not as good as those other three. I understand perfectly why it’s an important film for women, and am delighted it exists, and hope it starts a trend that has been a long time coming in Hollywood. But is it as good a film as STM, TDK or TA? No. Not as far as I’m concerned.
Just read Raven's post.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:38 AM   #81
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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It matters more than those. No Man's Land scene meant something to people. This is not about CGI, it's about impact of the film.

Do men really not understand why us women consider this film so important and why the flaws of it don't matter?
Not all women understand it either. It was really mainly in North America that the film had it's outstanding success (which makes the talk about the NFR relevant since that's tied to the US) while in many other places it did well but nothing out of the ordinary. Here in Sweden a portion of the reviewers, including women, gave it some criticism for having a hollow feminist message so clearly it's not just men that have failed to see that part (and plenty of men have seen it as well) so I don't think it's a good thing to make a gender issue out of that point.

It can't be about lack of weight given to the female struggle either as Sweden is a perennial top 5 country on the Global Gender Gap Report, so that's certainly taken very seriously here.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:40 AM   #82
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Just read Raven's post.
Hmmm. I guess I’m probably weighting my opinion too far in the direction of the film’s quality as a movie, rather than regarding it purely for its cultural impact.

Can we agree that if you purely assess Wonder Woman on its positive impact for women on film, it deserves a place... but that assessing it on its own merits as a movie means it probably falls short?

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:45 AM   #83
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Not all women understand it either. It was really mainly in North America that the film had it's outstanding success (which makes the talk about the NFR relevant since that's tied to the US) while in many other places it did well but nothing out of the ordinary. Here in Sweden a portion of the reviewers, including women, gave it some criticism for having a hollow feminist message so clearly it's not just men that have failed to see that part (and plenty of men have seen it as well) so I don't think it's a good thing to make a gender issue out of that point.

It can't be about lack of weight given to the female struggle either as Sweden is a perennial top 5 country on the Global Gender Gap Report, so that's certainly taken very seriously here.
The film totally flopped here, doesn't lessen my opinion of it or how much that scene meant to me. Or to women I know. Not some critics whose opinion doesn't mean anything to me.

The film could have flopped for many reasons. The marketing for example was atrocious over here. Also my country is sexist as hell.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:52 AM   #84
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The film totally flopped here, doesn't lessen my opinion of it or how much that scene meant to me. Or to women I know. Not some critics whose opinion doesn't mean anything to me.

The film could have flopped for many reasons. The marketing for example was atrocious over here.
I did state that it worked well for many, including men, so I'm not blind to that, I was just trying to point out that if people don't see the merits in the film it's not necessarily a gender issue or lack of support for the female struggle.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:56 AM   #85
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I did state that it worked well for many, including men, so I'm not blind to that, I was just trying to point out that if people don't see the merits in the film it's not necessarily a gender issue or lack of support for the female struggle.
I'm not implying lack of support. But it can easily be gender issue. It's hard to be empathetic to the point where you can really, truly understand what certain artworks mean so much to specific group of people.

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Old 12-14-2017, 07:57 AM   #86
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I did state that it worked well for many, including men, so I'm not blind to that, I was just trying to point out that if people don't see the merits in the film it's not necessarily a gender issue or lack of support for the female struggle.
Quite a few people don’t think it’s actually a strong enough feminist text. I thought Grant Morrison’s comments on Fatman On Batman were very good. He pointed out that the Amazonian civilisation seems stuck in the dark ages in the movie, which isn’t very feminist at all. The comics depict Themyscira as a well developed, superior civilisation that represents a clear and proper alternative to the patriarchy of man’s world. By presenting Themyscirans as having not developed beyond horse riding and bows and arrows for thousands of years, the film doesn’t really do the concept of a strong feminist text justice.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:00 AM   #87
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Default Re: Which Superhero films belong in the National Film Registry?

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Quite a few people don’t think it’s actually a strong enough feminist text. I thought Grant Morrison’s comments on Fatman On Batman were very good. He pointed out that the Amazonian civilisation seems stuck in the dark ages in the movie, which isn’t very feminist at all. The comics depict Themyscira as a well developed, superior civilisation that represents a clear and proper alternative to the patriarchy of man’s world. By presenting Themyscirans as having not developed beyond horse riding and bows and arrows for thousands of years, it doesn’t really do the concept of a strong feminist text justice.
Develop into what? Tanks and guns? Another spin would be that the machines and what men have been creating for centuries are killing this world. The island in the film seemed like a pure, natural place as opposed to the clinical, cold outside world. What a bizarre point to make...when they even illustrate the evil of guns in this film.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:03 AM   #88
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Develop into what? Tanks and guns? Another spin would be that the machines and what men have been creating for centuries are killing this world. The island in the film seemed like a pure, natural place as opposed to the clinical, cold outside world.
No. Advanced medical equipment, for one thing. The Amazonians are not presented as warlike with their technology in the comics. That’s the point. They represent a decent and better alternative to Man’s World, and Morrison was pointing out that its disappointing that the movie chosen to portray them as more backwards than that.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:05 AM   #89
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No. Advanced medical equipment, for one thing. The Amazonians are not presented as warlike with their technology in the comics. That’s the point. They represent a decent and better alternative to Man’s World, and Morrison was pointing out that its disappointing that the movie chosen to portray them as more backwards than that.
How do you know they don't have advanced medical equipment? It's such nitpicking. A movie like this comes along and some random guy focuses on stuff like this.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:06 AM   #90
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Hmmm. I guess I’m probably weighting my opinion too far in the direction of the film’s quality as a movie, rather than regarding it purely for its cultural impact.

Can we agree that if you purely assess Wonder Woman on its positive impact for women on film, it deserves a place... but that assessing it on its own merits as a movie means it probably falls short?
But that's precisely the point here. It's not about the merits of the movie on its own but on the cultural impact it has. That's why I mentioned Tommy Wisseau's "The Room" as an example.

Were some of the very early motion pictures that great in quality? Not at all. But they were probably groundbreaking for various reasons (eg being the first talkie, first to star a black actor or whatever).

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:10 AM   #91
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How do you know they don't have advanced medical equipment? It's such nitpicking. A movie like this comes along and some random guy focuses on stuff like this.
Okay... I’m going to back away from this conversation. All I’m bringing up is an arguably valid criticism of the film, but it feels like you’re not in the mood to hear any kind of criticism of it right now, so I’ll wish you a good day and leave well enough alone.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 AM   #92
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Okay... I’m going to back away from this conversation. All I’m bringing up is an arguably valid criticism of the film, but it feels like you’re not in the mood to hear any kind of criticism of it right now, so I’ll wish you a good day and leave well enough alone.
It's not valid, it's petty and ridiculous but if you are not OK with people disagreeing with you then yes, back away. There's plenty wrong with WW but the lack of medical equipment is not that. Bad editing? Iffy CGI? Sure. But not that.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 AM   #93
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But that's precisely the point here. It's not about the merits of the movie on its own but on the cultural impact it has. That's why I mentioned Tommy Wisseau's "The Room" as an example.

Were some of the very early motion pictures that great in quality? Not at all. But they were probably groundbreaking for various reasons (eg being the first talkie, first to star a black actor or whatever).
Well, that’s a more than fair enough point. I entirely agree that on the merits of its cultural impact, Wonder Woman will be a strong contender for inclusion in 10 years. It’s still not as a good a film as the other three, but I concede that this may not really be the point here.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:13 AM   #94
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It's not valid, it's petty and ridiculous but if you are not OK with people disagreeing with you then yes, back away. There's plenty wrong with WW but the lack of medical equipment is not that.
But... that’s not what I was saying. I just brought up the medical equipment as an example of the kind of technology Morrison was talking about! Look... go listen to the podcast, it’s very interesting. You may not end up agreeing with what he has to say, but at least you’ll get the whole critique first hand, instead of piecemeal from me.

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Old 12-14-2017, 08:55 AM   #95
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Superman was added to the Registry.

https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-17-178/
These are the 25 films just added to the NFR: https://www.loc.gov/item/prn-17-178/...ms/2017-12-13/
As of DECEMBER 13, 2017

Alphabetically:

Ace in the Hole (aka Big Carnival) (1951)
Boulevard Nights (1979)
Die Hard (1988)
Dumbo (1941)
Field of Dreams (1989)
4 Little Girls (1997)
Fuentes Family Home Movies Collection (1920s and 1930s)
Gentleman’s Agreement (1947)
The Goonies (1985)
Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner (1967)
He Who Gets Slapped (1924)
Interior New York Subway, 14th Street to 42nd Street (1905)
La Bamba (1987)
Lives of Performers (1972)
Memento (2000)
Only Angels Have Wings (1939)
The Sinking of the Lusitania (1918)
Spartacus (1960)
Superman (1978)
Thelonious Monk: Straight, No Chaser (1988)
Time and Dreams (1976)
Titanic (1997)
To Sleep with Anger (1990)
Wanda (1971)
With the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain (1937-1938)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Film_Registry

Unless you count Zorro, there are, to my knowledge, currently no Superhero movies in NFR.
So as of yesterday there are now 2 Superhero movies in NFR.
(yeah I count Zorro )


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Superman (1978)
Director Richard Donner’s treatment of the famous superhero was not the first time the character had been on the big screen. Kirk Alyn played the role back in a 1948 serial and George Reeves appeared in both theatrical and TV versions in the 1950s. However, for many, Christopher Reeve remains the definitive Man of Steel. This film, an “origins” story, recounts Superman’s journey to Earth as a boy, his move from Smallville to Metropolis and his emergence as a true American hero. Beautiful in its sweep, score and special effects, which create a sense of awe and wonder, “Superman” — as the tag line reads — makes you “believe a man can fly.”


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Old 12-14-2017, 09:02 AM   #96
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Grant Morrison, one of the greatest writers in comic book history, who just wrote one of the few Wonder Woman comics in recent memory that tries to honor the spirit of what William Moulton Marston intended, is just....some random guy?

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Old 12-14-2017, 09:26 AM   #97
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Grant Morrison, one of the greatest writers in comic book history, who just wrote one of the few Wonder Woman comics in recent memory that tries to honor the spirit of what William Moulton Marston intended, is just....some random guy?
To me? Yeah. First I'm reading about him.

I have never been familiar with WW before the movie. I don't care what was in comics or not, I'm judging it as a movie in terms of how it was made and the impact it had on me.

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Old 12-14-2017, 10:49 AM   #98
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To me? Yeah. First I'm reading about him.

I have never been familiar with WW before the movie. I don't care what was in comics or not, I'm judging it as a movie in terms of how it was made and the impact it had on me.
If you’re going to comment on Wonder Woman as a feminist text, it’d be a good idea to go away and read up on how she’s depicted in the comics, rather than just lambast someone for daring to offer a criticism of the movie she stars in, when that movie fails in part to live up to the way women are positively depicted in those comics.

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Old 12-18-2017, 05:42 PM   #99
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Watchmen is a masterpiece.

.
Indeed. But this is the national film registry. Not the national comic book registry.

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Old 12-18-2017, 06:31 PM   #100
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Indeed. But this is the national film registry. Not the national comic book registry.

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