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Old 06-22-2017, 03:56 PM   #726
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I certainly agree that Superman is not about physical dominance or imposing his will by force, or anything like that.

But that doesn't mean that we need to see him get curb-stomped by Batman either.

I get that the film wants to allow Superman to occupy the moral high ground anyway, and that he is eventually supposed to have a redemptive effect on evil/villain Batman.

But I don't think that is the main thing the audience will retain from this movie, especially because the fight mostly reproduces the TDKR material that is already quite familiar (either from the graphic novel itself, or because that portrayal has been very influential since then).


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Old 06-22-2017, 04:01 PM   #727
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I certainly agree that Superman is not about physical dominance or imposing his will by force, or anything like that.

But that doesn't mean that we need to see him get curb-stomped by Batman either.
It also doesn't mean Superman should redeem Batman or earn Batman's trust because he beats him in a fight.



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I get that the film wants to allow Superman to occupy the moral high ground anyway, and that he is eventually supposed to have a redemptive effect on evil/villain Batman.

But I don't think that is the main thing reviewers retain from this movie, especially because it essentially reproduces the TDKR material.
It does nothing of the sort. It presents mirror images of TDKR material. It deconstructs and subverts it. I don't think TDKR imagery is as familiar to the GA as you think it is.

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Old 06-22-2017, 04:29 PM   #728
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It also doesn't mean Superman should redeem Batman or earn Batman's trust because he beats him in a fight.
Agreed. I'm not saying that Superman should be beating up Batman.

It's the basic concept of Batman brawling with Superman as a lead-in to Justice League that I see as misguided.

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It does nothing of the sort. It presents mirror images of TDKR material. It deconstructs and subverts it.
I understand that subverting TDKR is the concept or intent. But what comes across to the audience is another matter, imho.

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Old 06-22-2017, 04:33 PM   #729
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Agreed. I'm not saying that Superman should be beating up Batman.

It's the basic concept of Batman brawling with Superman as a lead-in to Justice League that I see as misguided.
Man fears god. Man sees the humanity in the god. Man and god work side by side. Enemies becoming friends to fight a greater foe. Makes perfect sense to me.

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I understand that subverting TDKR is the concept or intent. But what comes across to the audience is another matter, imho.
Most of the audience has no reference point for the TDKR nods, and those who do would recognize the subversions. It's a non-issue, IMO.

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Old 06-22-2017, 07:25 PM   #730
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Superman getting beat isn't just about Batman being superior, either. It's about how far Batman has fallen as a hero. They don't show Batman reveling in his beating of Superman because it's badass. It's to show how far gone Batman is.

The sequence is also largely about the use of Kryptonite, which is a key part of the film, and the introduction of Kryptonite to Superman's world, and his sudden physical vulnerability to this new element. Prior to this, he's really never been able to be hurt to the degree he now is.

Storywise, it's nowhere near as simple as "this guy wins and this guy loses".

And while it may not be the ideal lead-in for JUSTICE LEAGUE, you have to admit that it does set it apart a bit, and gives the "team" conflict an entirely different dynamic.

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Old 06-22-2017, 07:51 PM   #731
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Man fears god. Man sees the humanity in the god. Man and god work side by side. Enemies becoming friends to fight a greater foe. Makes perfect sense to me.
This is where we will have to agree to disagree. I understand what the film is trying to say on the topic, but I'm not enthused by the idea of adapting these characters as an allegory of the relationship between Man and God.

Whether or not that was a good idea, broadly speaking, is a more nebulous question. I tend to think not, but I'm not suggesting that it was objectively bad. I know some people liked it.

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Most of the audience has no reference point for the TDKR nods, and those who do would recognize the subversions. It's a non-issue, IMO.
What I said originally wasn't that everybody's perception would be determined by the graphic novel, but more simply that choosing to have Batman beat up Superman as the pivotal moment of the story wasn't, imho, a stellar creative choice.

However, *in addition* to that, TDKR is a very well-known story. There's an animated adaptation, yet at the same time, it will often end up on reading lists at the university level (along with Watchmen, and some other graphic novels). So I do think the scene was recognizable to a significant chunk of the audience.

And I think it probably felt like "Batman beating up Superman again" to a lot of people, even though the intent was to show something a bit different.

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And while it may not be the ideal lead-in for JUSTICE LEAGUE, you have to admit that it does set it apart a bit, and gives the "team" conflict an entirely different dynamic.
I think some tension initially would have made sense. But not an all-out battle, imho.

As a counter-example, the Avengers script does spend a decent amount of time on the heroes scuffling with one another, but the main idea is the team coming together.

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Old 06-23-2017, 04:04 AM   #732
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Superman getting beat isn't just about Batman being superior, either. It's about how far Batman has fallen as a hero. They don't show Batman reveling in his beating of Superman because it's badass. It's to show how far gone Batman is.

The sequence is also largely about the use of Kryptonite, which is a key part of the film, and the introduction of Kryptonite to Superman's world, and his sudden physical vulnerability to this new element. Prior to this, he's really never been able to be hurt to the degree he now is.

Storywise, it's nowhere near as simple as "this guy wins and this guy loses".

And while it may not be the ideal lead-in for JUSTICE LEAGUE, you have to admit that it does set it apart a bit, and gives the "team" conflict an entirely different dynamic.
I feel like the whole concept of Batman having been redeemed from being a "fallen hero" would have gone better had Batman not gone about slaughtering several mercenaries after his fight with Superman.lol

If the goal was to have Superman lose the fight so that he can redeem Batman, then the execution was pretty terrible imho.

Superman may not have gone into the fight with the intent to kill, but I don't think anyone can doubt that Superman wasn't given it his all after he got it by the first kryptonite gas. The sequence pretty much stated that as long as Batman has kryptonite, Superman will never be able to beat him.

Plus, when you consider their long history in other medium where Batman always finds a way to beat Superman....it's actually Batman who's been made to look "Unbeatable" in their encounters as a whole.

If anything, I just feel irritated that Superman was the only member of the Trinity who really didn't get anything out of this film.

Batman got redeemed and inspired to create the JL. Wonder Woman decided to become an active hero again and join forces with Bruce.

Superman just died before admitting to Lois that she was his world.

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Old 06-23-2017, 04:33 AM   #733
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I feel like the whole concept of Batman having been redeemed from being a "fallen hero" would have gone better had Batman not gone about slaughtering several mercenaries after his fight with Superman.lol

If the goal was to have Superman lose the fight so that he can redeem Batman, then the execution was pretty terrible imho.
Batman is set on a path to redemption. It starts with sparing Superman, continues with saving Martha, deepens with Superman's sacrifice, develops with sparing Luthor from the brand, solidifies with making friends, and culminates in Superman's resurrection.

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Superman may not have gone into the fight with the intent to kill, but I don't think anyone can doubt that Superman wasn't given it his all after he got it by the first kryptonite gas. The sequence pretty much stated that as long as Batman has kryptonite, Superman will never be able to beat him.
The sequence does not state that at all. It states that Superman cannot beat Batman if he is holding back and is coping with his first exposure to kryptonite.

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Plus, when you consider their long history in other medium where Batman always finds a way to beat Superman....it's actually Batman who's been made to look "Unbeatable" in their encounters as a whole.
Snyder is not accountable for the "Batgod" characterization in all media.

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If anything, I just feel irritated that Superman was the only member of the Trinity who really didn't get anything out of this film.

Batman got redeemed and inspired to create the JL. Wonder Woman decided to become an active hero again and join forces with Bruce.

Superman just died before admitting to Lois that she was his world.
Batman's redemption is because of Superman. Wonder Woman became an active hero because of Superman. The world found a way to reconcile its relationship with godlike heroes by recognizing their shared humanity. Superman's name was cleared for the carnage in Nairomi and any links to the Capitol bombing. Superman found a way to endure the nightmares that come with being a superhero. Clark and Lois found a way for Superman to love her and be his full self (Clark and Superman). Superman's the reason for everything. He's the reason why the Justice League even has a chance to come together. Are you sure you are a Superman fan?

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Old 06-23-2017, 04:39 AM   #734
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This is where we will have to agree to disagree. I understand what the film is trying to say on the topic, but I'm not enthused by the idea of adapting these characters as an allegory of the relationship between Man and God.

Whether or not that was a good idea, broadly speaking, is a more nebulous question. I tend to think not, but I'm not suggesting that it was objectively bad. I know some people liked it.
An allegory for the relationship between Man and God is literally the central theme of Wonder Woman.

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What I said originally wasn't that everybody's perception would be determined by the graphic novel, but more simply that choosing to have Batman beat up Superman as the pivotal moment of the story wasn't, imho, a stellar creative choice.
And what does that have to do with TDKR? It's irrelevant. You still haven't explained why this "creative choice" wasn't a "stellar" one other than fighting is bad and themes about the humanity/god relationship are bad.

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However, *in addition* to that, TDKR is a very well-known story. There's an animated adaptation, yet at the same time, it will often end up on reading lists at the university level (along with Watchmen, and some other graphic novels). So I do think the scene was recognizable to a significant chunk of the audience.
Because there's an animated DVD film and TDKR appears on lists???

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And I think it probably felt like "Batman beating up Superman again" to a lot of people, even though the intent was to show something a bit different.
It's literally the only time it's happened in live action. The only people who would feel it was somehow cliche would be those familiar with the comics, which is a small minority. It would also be a minority that would be familiar enough with the material to attend to the nuances.

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As a counter-example, the Avengers script does spend a decent amount of time on the heroes scuffling with one another, but the main idea is the team coming together.
That's because The Avengers is The Avengers. It's a team up film not a prelude to a team up film. Your reasoning would make more sense if we were discussing Justice League.

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Old 06-23-2017, 05:54 AM   #735
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An allegory for the relationship between Man and God is literally the central theme of Wonder Woman.
Not in the same way at all.

The problem with allegory, going back a very long way, is that it takes the focus away from coherent story and character development.

So films like Wonder Woman, Thor and even Avengers do have some themes related to the relationship between human beings and gods, but they are not allegories.

In those films, the characters and story come first.

That's why people complain constantly about the characters' actions not making sense in Batman versus Superman, but not in Wonder Woman, Thor or Avengers.

The allegory in BvS makes everything feel very forced and awkward from the point of view of the story and the characters, even if, yes, one can create a coherent interpretation of what happens. Focusing on the allegorical meaning completely misses the basic incoherence of the story itself.

Films like WW and Avengers do not have this problem.

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And what does that have to do with TDKR? It's irrelevant. You still haven't explained why this "creative choice" wasn't a "stellar" one other than fighting is bad and themes about the humanity/god relationship are bad.
It's been explained a lot, by myself and others.

Neither Superman nor Batman were portrayed in a positive light in this movie, with the pivotal fight being a big part of that.

Not everything about these movies is cerebral and abstract. In fact, most of it isn't.

There's no need to write an essay on the topic.

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Because there's an animated DVD film and TDKR appears on lists???
It's one of the best-known and widely-admired stories in comics. Unlike most comic stories, it is also recognized as an important piece of literature and is read and studied as such.

The movie essentially copies a scene from that graphic novel as the pivotal moment in the film.

So of course that is a relevant point to discuss. Not everyone in the audience will recognize the scene, but a significant chunk will notice that it's a famous scene from a very famous graphic novel.


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Old 06-23-2017, 06:19 AM   #736
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:22 AM   #737
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Pretty solid - and I found majority of people that I know didn't like it at first whose re-watched it since has a much more positive opinion of it.

I think part of the problem is people compare it to the Nolan films, since they are by far too me the highest standard of any CBM property.

I do agree with a lot of the "negative" points he made, as it is far from a perfect movie.

But man, it gets better and better.

And I learn more and more, I didn't even realize how much of B vs S was even foreshadowed in MoS.

I just saw the point that Lara had a conversation with Jor-El saying he would be an outcast, and Jor-El said he would be a god.

And then boom B vs S happens, and you have both those polarizing views.

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Old 06-23-2017, 04:43 PM   #738
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I feel like the whole concept of Batman having been redeemed from being a "fallen hero" would have gone better had Batman not gone about slaughtering several mercenaries after his fight with Superman.lol
Batman was not going to be redeemed overnight. It took Superman's sacrifice to truly shake him out of his rut and make him realize he truly needed to change.

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If the goal was to have Superman lose the fight so that he can redeem Batman, then the execution was pretty terrible imho.
That was not the goal, and that's not the inherent meaning of the scene.

Superman "loses" the fight so Batman can see how far gone he is for himself. That moment is about Batman, not Superman. Superman's key sequence comes later in the film.

Superman helps redeem Batman because later, after fighting beside him, Batman sees how wrong he was about Superman. He sees that despite his fears about Superman, Superman was a true hero, and has made the ultimate sacrifice.

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Superman may not have gone into the fight with the intent to kill, but I don't think anyone can doubt that Superman wasn't given it his all after he got it by the first kryptonite gas. The sequence pretty much stated that as long as Batman has kryptonite, Superman will never be able to beat him.
No it didn't. It suggests that in this particular instance, Batman got the upper hand. It suggests Superman is going to have his hands full if someone has Kryptonite, and why wouldn't he? That's key to the mythology.

There's really no reason Superman couldn't change his tactics next time he encounters Kryptonite, or hypothetically, Batman with Kryptonite.

Batman caught him off guard in this movie. Superman didn't even know what Kryptonite was. Now he does, and he can react differently if he encounters it again.

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Plus, when you consider their long history in other medium where Batman always finds a way to beat Superman....it's actually Batman who's been made to look "Unbeatable" in their encounters as a whole.
And that has nothing to do with this film.

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If anything, I just feel irritated that Superman was the only member of the Trinity who really didn't get anything out of this film.

Batman got redeemed and inspired to create the JL. Wonder Woman decided to become an active hero again and join forces with Bruce.

Superman just died before admitting to Lois that she was his world.
No...Superman didn't "just die".

-He sacrificed himself to save many. There was meaning to his death.

-Before he died, he reconciled his mission (twice) and his personal desires in relation to his duty as a being with immense power.

-After being willing to sacrifice his life to save others despite all the crap people threw at him, he inspires like, an entire planet full of people. Look at the scene at his memorial, at all his mourners and the people he has inspired.

-He becomes a figure of legend.

-He gets a military funeral, he helps begin the redemptino of a fallen hero, and he inspires other heroes to carry on in his stead.

-And we see fairly clearly at the end of the film that he's going to get to come back to life after all that.

How is that nothing?

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Old 06-23-2017, 08:43 PM   #739
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Batman was not going to be redeemed overnight. It took Superman's sacrifice to truly shake him out of his rut and make him realize he truly needed to change.



That was not the goal, and that's not the inherent meaning of the scene.

Superman "loses" the fight so Batman can see how far gone he is for himself. That moment is about Batman, not Superman. Superman's key sequence comes later in the film.

Superman helps redeem Batman because later, after fighting beside him, Batman sees how wrong he was about Superman. He sees that despite his fears about Superman, Superman was a true hero, and has made the ultimate sacrifice.



No it didn't. It suggests that in this particular instance, Batman got the upper hand. It suggests Superman is going to have his hands full if someone has Kryptonite, and why wouldn't he? That's key to the mythology.

There's really no reason Superman couldn't change his tactics next time he encounters Kryptonite, or hypothetically, Batman with Kryptonite.

Batman caught him off guard in this movie. Superman didn't even know what Kryptonite was. Now he does, and he can react differently if he encounters it again.



And that has nothing to do with this film.



No...Superman didn't "just die".

-He sacrificed himself to save many. There was meaning to his death.

-Before he died, he reconciled his mission (twice) and his personal desires in relation to his duty as a being with immense power.

-After being willing to sacrifice his life to save others despite all the crap people threw at him, he inspires like, an entire planet full of people. Look at the scene at his memorial, at all his mourners and the people he has inspired.

-He becomes a figure of legend.

-He gets a military funeral, he helps begin the redemptino of a fallen hero, and he inspires other heroes to carry on in his stead.

-And we see fairly clearly at the end of the film that he's going to get to come back to life after all that.

How is that nothing?

Although I agree with your post 100%.

I find this part incredibly interesting, and it didn't really cross my mind until you made this post.

One of the biggest criticisms of Nolans film's are that he over does the exposition, and that he should let the viewer figure it out themselves.

Flash forward to B vs S, where we get very little to no exposition and its a chance for the viewer to interpret the movie and what was going through everyone's minds etc, and majority of counter points being made could have easily been explained in exposition.

I to be honest, enjoy both, but I do like when some ideas are explained too me - luckily enough I have the forums etc, and posters like yourself to help explain things in a way that I may not have realized.

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Old 06-24-2017, 02:09 AM   #740
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Batman's redemption is because of Superman. Wonder Woman became an active hero because of Superman. The world found a way to reconcile its relationship with godlike heroes by recognizing their shared humanity. Superman's name was cleared for the carnage in Nairomi and any links to the Capitol bombing. Superman's the reason for everything. He's the reason why the Justice League even has a chance to come together. Are you sure you are a Superman fan?
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No...Superman didn't "just die".

-He sacrificed himself to save many. There was meaning to his death.

-Before he died, he reconciled his mission (twice) and his personal desires in relation to his duty as a being with immense power.

-After being willing to sacrifice his life to save others despite all the crap people threw at him, he inspires like, an entire planet full of people. Look at the scene at his memorial, at all his mourners and the people he has inspired.

-He becomes a figure of legend.

-He gets a military funeral, he helps begin the redemptino of a fallen hero, and he inspires other heroes to carry on in his stead.

-And we see fairly clearly at the end of the film that he's going to get to come back to life after all that.

How is that nothing?
Granted, Superman's death did manage to get the rest of the world to look at him in a more favorable light, along with Batman and Wonder Woman becoming recommitted to their own missions in life.... I don't know, it's just that (from my POV at least), I just couldn't feel the full weight of these changes.

I think that was another problem with this film, that BvS had like three big things going on that really didn't end up connecting well at the climax of the film.

You had Superman's own story that was being continued from the events from MOS.

You had Batman's introduction into the universe, while setting up his conflict with Superman.

And then you had Batman forming a relationship/partnership with Wonder Woman throughout the events of the film, which was a obvious set up for the Justice League.

That's why when we finally saw all three of coming together to fight against Doomsday, it just didn't feel like it was something that was earned or properly done.

Also, Superman had no interactions with Diana at that point and we had no idea of what Diana thought about Superman before his sacrifice. So, there was no reason to get invested in the idea of them meeting later on.

Superman's character was isolated from most of the "world building" stuff in this film, something that I feel confident that will have bad repercussions when they finally try to force him into the JL. If they had done a better job in having Superman play a more active role in this whole world building/JL setup, then I would especially feel confident in what they may have in stored for JL.

In regards to the Batman v Superman part; I just wish that we could get confirmation later down the line that if Superman had gone into a fight against Batman without any restraints, that he would have a decent chance of winning as well. I don't want a world where either of them has the dominant trump card over each other. Ideally, if those two were to go to war with each other at their best, it would be better if it would just result in both of them dying than one being presented as the definite superior over the other.

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Old 06-24-2017, 10:25 AM   #741
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*snip*

Superman just died before admitting to Lois that she was his world.
If anything, that's the opposite of progress. After spending a movie and a half at least trying to say Superman is a hero, he dies with the words on his lips saying "Nope, I don't actually care about the world after all". Which, sure, is probably not the message they meant to say, but oi. Bad message nonetheless.

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Old 06-24-2017, 10:35 AM   #742
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If anything, that's the opposite of progress. After spending a movie and a half at least trying to say Superman is a hero, he dies with the words on his lips saying "Nope, I don't actually care about the world after all". Which, sure, is probably not the message they meant to say, but oi. Bad message nonetheless.
That isn't the message at all. Like at all. "This is my world." The message couldn't be clearer. Anything else is a deliberate misreading.

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