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Old 03-12-2017, 10:41 AM   #751
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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BW objectively has much less time than Cap in TWS. And TWS is clearly a Cap's solo movie, unlike CW. So why is BW such a problem? It's Tony Stark in CW, not Natasha in TWS, who was a co-lead, no matter what fans or even Feige say.
More screentime doesn't always correspond to plot importance, precisely.

Falcon and BP have roughly the same amount of screentime, but while T'Challa has his own arc and character trajectory, Falcon is only sort of there.

BW was the one being whose court hearing we've seen, and the one for whom the leaking of SHIELD's secrets was supposed to be a huge character beat.

TWS was less obvious about it, but the same mentality produced both.

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Yes. We are running in circles. And I still don't see any contradictions. At no point in the movie did Steve try to become romantic with BW.
Steve who is romantically inexperienced? Who kept hearing Natasha pestering him to date random girls?

Not a surprise, really.

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It was Whedon, who didn't care about the continuity. Going into jail is not the only сonsequence that matter for the characters.
Or perhaps, again, it wasn't Whedon's responsibility to tie up the Russo's loose ends. It wasn't his job to develop Sharon when the Russos neglected to reveal her last name, and if he didn't feel like expounding on those consequences, maybe the Russos shouldn't have left that thread dangling.

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Old 03-12-2017, 10:50 AM   #752
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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The thing is, I get your logic, I'm not saying you are not making sense, it's just that I've got the Russos' logic too. All I'm saying is that I can understand why they did what they did in TWS. They just did what they considered being more interesting and rich for the story. For you and for them it's just different things, that's the problem. And that's normal. No filmmaker can please everyone from his audience.

It wasn’t about their love for the Avengers or something like that. They are not kids, you know, to be obsessive about Avengers and nobody else. What I can't understand is why they did what they did in CW.
Well BW's involvement in TWS may have inspired every other Avenger being in CW, plus Spider-Man, BP, etc.

Hell, go check out some old threads. Fans weren't talking about what interesting direction for Cap there should be, they were talking about what Avenger should be in Cap 3.

So was TWS really what was best for Cap, overall?

It definitely was great for the the Russos' careers and their prestige.

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Old 03-12-2017, 02:42 PM   #753
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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BW was the one being whose court hearing we've seen, and the one for whom the leaking of SHIELD's secrets was supposed to be a huge character beat.

TWS was less obvious about it, but the same mentality produced both.
Tony Stark has got much more in terms of a character development meat than BW in TWS. And I still don't understand what kind of an arc you want for Cap. He has very strong moral compass. It would have been out of character for him to drastically change like BW or BP. He had much in terms of character development in TWS, though. We've got to know him much better than in TFA or TA. His arc with Bucky was very compelling. TWS made him one of the most beloved characters in MCU. Thor has got much worse treatment.
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Steve who is romantically inexperienced? Who kept hearing Natasha pestering him to date random girls?

Not a surprise, really.
I still don't see your point. Steve did ask the nurse Kate out. So he was open to experience romantic relationship. And when Widow asked him who he wanted her to be for him his answer was: "Friend".
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Or perhaps, again, it wasn't Whedon's responsibility to tie up the Russo's loose ends. It wasn't his job to develop Sharon
Deadpool managed to develop the relationship between Wade and Vanessa in like 10 minutes. And it looked believable. Because the movie implied that it had been quite a long time they'd known each other before their ILYs to each other. So it wasn't Whedon's job to develop Sharon, he should have shown her at the Stark's party with Steve along with Sam, who was basically a cameo, but still there. It would have been much better if Steve and Sharon were implied as being dating and knowing each other waaaay before Peggy's funeral. As it is, we've got no explanation whatsoever why Steve didn't call Sharon after TWS. Especially considering his words to Bruce that he has learned his lesson about waiting too long.
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when the Russos neglected to reveal her last name, and if he didn't feel like expounding on those consequences, maybe the Russos shouldn't have left that thread dangling.
I don't see why it's such a big deal - revealing her last name in TWS. It was obviously left dangling on purpose: they wanted a big reveal that she is CARTER in Cap 3. Which ultimately сaused more harm than good.
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plus Spider-Man, BP, etc.
The studio wanted SM and BP, whatever the Russos wanted themselves, one way or another it would have been forced on them no matter what.
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Fans weren't talking about what interesting direction for Cap there should be, they were talking about what Avenger should be in Cap 3.
I see the discussion of Sharon Carter here in 3 whole parts. No other Avenger has got the same. And you are still saying that people are not interested in Cap or his supporting characters. Fans are still constantly fighting who is right - Steve or Tony - everywhere.

Before CW I saw many talking about SM. Which is totally understandable, because it's SM, for God's sake! The most popular comic-book character of all time.

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It definitely was great for the the Russos' careers and their prestige.
It was great for the Russos' careers and their prestige because it was a good movie, not because there were BW and Fury. For the umpteenth time, did BW's and Fury's inclusion help IM2? It was the Russos who made Cap a popular and beloved character. As well as Bucky and Falcon.


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Old 03-14-2017, 03:06 AM   #754
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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I see the discussion of Sharon Carter here in 3 whole parts.
This thread has only reached 3 parts because the same 2-3 posters keep rehashing the same gripes about the character's role in CW. That fills up dozens of pages but ultimately goes nowhere.


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Old 03-14-2017, 10:57 AM   #755
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by Capsfan View Post
Tony Stark has got much more in terms of a character development meat than BW in TWS. And I still don't understand what kind of an arc you want for Cap. He has very strong moral compass. It would have been out of character for him to drastically change like BW or BP. He had much in terms of character development in TWS, though. We've got to know him much better than in TFA or TA. His arc with Bucky was very compelling. TWS made him one of the most beloved characters in MCU. Thor has got much worse treatment.
An arc that actually challenges him? An arc that sees him branch out in the modern era?

In TWS, Steve is uncomfortable with SHIELD and how they operate. Oh wait, nevermind, SHIELD is actually HYDRA/actual Nazis. Whose morality no one is confused about.

In TWS, Steve is asked what makes him happy. Nothing comes out of the question. Unless you go with the AoU interpretation that war and conflict is what makes Steve happy. That goes nicely with Steve's moral compass.

In TWS and CW, much is made about how Steve clings to the remains of his past vis Peggy and Bucky, but is he ever shown letting the past go in a healthy way? No, he doesn't.

Cap is supposed to be the character whose goodness is supposed to be a strength, Marvel's Superman basically, but the Russo's Cap is an MMA fighter with unaddressed mental issues.

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I don't see why it's such a big deal - revealing her last name in TWS. It was obviously left dangling on purpose: they wanted a big reveal that she is CARTER in Cap 3. Which ultimately сaused more harm than good.
My main point is about if Whedon didn't want to devote a storythread to the consequences of BW's info-leak, then they should have had those consequences in TWS.

As it is, one of the reasons you cite for BW's heavy involvement requires a specific storyline to have happen later. Which ultimately didn't.

As for Sharon's name, yeah, it ended up doing more harm than good. Establishing a character's name is the most basic thing about a character, and they didn't even give her that.

And to link to another of your points, since Steve didn't know her name, then that meant if Whedon had him date her, he would have done so without knowledge of who she was related to. Which would mean Sharon would have been hiding it from him.

The studio wanted SM and BP, whatever the Russos wanted themselves, one way or another it would have been forced on them no matter what.[/quote]

Fans always blame the amorphous figure of "the studio" for whatever potentially inconvenient thing about fanfavorite creators.

The Russos have repeatedly talked up how they labored to get Spider-Man in the movie, about how they couldn't imagine it without him, about how he was always in the script.

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Before CW I saw many talking about SM. Which is totally understandable, because it's SM, for God's sake! The most popular comic-book character of all time.
I'm talking before the movie even being known to be CW. There was A LOT of talking about how the movie should be about Black Panther. Or Captain Marvel, because, uh, Carol and Steve are both in the military.

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It was great for the Russos' careers and their prestige because it was a good movie, not because there were BW and Fury. For the umpteenth time, did BW's and Fury's inclusion help IM2? It was the Russos who made Cap a popular and beloved character. As well as Bucky and Falcon.
And Whedon was who made Black Widow and Fury popular, before TWS featured them heavily.

Many make great movies, some even greater, though without already characters, without getting the same meteoric rise in success prestige.

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I see the discussion of Sharon Carter here in 3 whole parts. No other Avenger has got the same. And you are still saying that people are not interested in Cap or his supporting characters.
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Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post
This thread has only reached 3 parts because the same 2-3 posters keep rehashing the same gripes about the character's role in CW. That fills up dozens of pages but ultimately goes nowhere.
This thread made it to 3 parts because of constant Sharon-bashing, put-downs directed at Sharon fans, and rabid defense of the Russos at even the slightest criticism.

If people knew well enough to leave alone it would have barely made 2.


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Old 03-14-2017, 02:09 PM   #756
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post
This thread has only reached 3 parts because the same 2-3 posters keep rehashing the same gripes about the character's role in CW. That fills up dozens of pages but ultimately goes nowhere.
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Originally Posted by BullMcGiveny View Post



This thread made it to 3 parts because of constant Sharon-bashing, put-downs directed at Sharon fans, and rabid defense of the Russos at even the slightest criticism.

If people knew well enough to leave alone it would have barely made 2.
So in a way, thanks xeno for your contribution in pushing this thread to 3 parts .

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Old 03-14-2017, 02:46 PM   #757
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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this thread has only reached 3 parts because the same 2-3 posters keep rehashing the same gripes about the character's role in cw. That fills up dozens of pages but ultimately goes nowhere.
Dormammu, I've come to argue!

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Old 03-17-2017, 01:38 AM   #758
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

I'm not even joking... This thread is exhibit A of a near mania or sickness in this, the fanboy community in particular but also of the wider culture of the Internet as it's developed. Something is terribly wrong.

Take time out and explain that this is something you've chosen to devote this much time towards to someone. Explain that this is what a fraction of your limited time on Earth is going to.

Take some time off. Seriously. Choose not to post for like a three weeks straight. If you can't do that... You may have a problem.

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Old 03-19-2017, 05:53 AM   #759
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

Rumor has ir rhat Sharon dies off screen between Civil War and Infinity War.

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Old 03-19-2017, 05:56 AM   #760
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post
This thread has only reached 3 parts because the same 2-3 posters keep rehashing the same gripes about the character's role in CW. That fills up dozens of pages but ultimately goes nowhere.

Cats can chase their tails as well.


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Old 03-19-2017, 05:58 AM   #761
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3


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Old 03-23-2017, 07:40 AM   #762
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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An arc that actually challenges him? An arc that sees him branch out in the modern era?

In TWS, Steve is uncomfortable with SHIELD and how they operate. Oh wait, nevermind, SHIELD is actually HYDRA/actual Nazis. Whose morality no one is confused about.
...
Cap is supposed to be the character whose goodness is supposed to be a strength, Marvel's Superman basically, but the Russo's Cap is an MMA fighter with unaddressed mental issues.
Okay, I think we will never fully agree on this. But you reminded me of something. I think this is a great article about why TWS is a good Cap's movie. While I can't say I agree with all of that, it has some spot-on points regarding this conversation.

Quote:
In TWS, Steve is asked what makes him happy. Nothing comes out of the question. Unless you go with the AoU interpretation that war and conflict is what makes Steve happy. That goes nicely with Steve's moral compass.
If it wasn't said out loud, doesn't mean it wasn't there at all. I think it's obvious from TWS, AoU and CW, that friends and his job make Steve happy. Especially Bucky. There is the footage in TWS where we see Steve with Bucky being extremely happy like he had never been after defrosting.

Also no, I don't think that having an addiction means that it is what makes you happy. Do drugs make a junkie happy?

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In TWS and CW, much is made about how Steve clings to the remains of his past vis Peggy and Bucky, but is he ever shown letting the past go in a healthy way? No, he doesn't.
I know that it's an unpopular opinion, but I don't see it like that so much. Is he sad sometimes due to loosing his past? Yes. But desperately clinging to it? No, I don't see any evidence of it, at least in TWS. At the very beginning of TWS he takes the initiative at getting to know Sam, he asks Kate for a date. He is already open to his future. It's just that his past is pursuing him.
And I totally don't think that friends could have some expiration date. He visits Peggy and he doesn't give up on Bucky because they are his friends, he would do the same in any case, even still being in the 40s.

But that being said, I suspect that Sharon was meant to be this ultimate sign of him "letting the past go in a healthy way". She was supposed to be his future. Unfortunately, they've played it wrong and instead of 'Steve is moving on' made it seem for quite many people like the opposite is the case. So yes, I agree, that they've made a pretty big mistake here.


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My main point is about if Whedon didn't want to devote a storythread to the consequences of BW's info-leak, then they should have had those consequences in TWS.
Well, they've only had so much screentime in the movie. And it's still a shared universe. I don't understand why Whedon was allowed to act like previous films didn't happen. It shouldn't have been something for him to decide.

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As it is, one of the reasons you cite for BW's heavy involvement requires a specific storyline to have happen later. Which ultimately didn't.
Um.. No. I was just trying to explain why the Russos might have considered BW being more interesting and compelling option for their movie. Of course we all have different notions about what is interesting. Also, ultimately it did play a big part in Zemo's plan. An in Natasha's motivation to choose team Tony.

Quote:
As for Sharon's name, yeah, it ended up doing more harm than good. Establishing a character's name is the most basic thing about a character, and they didn't even give her that.
Em, actually her name was established. BW did say that her name is Sharon.
The problem is that it's a lose-lose situation. If Steve found out she's related to Peggy in TWS, then he would have had no time to get to know her before that either way. To avoid it, I think they shouldn't have revealed her relation to Peggy in CW as well.

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And to link to another of your points, since Steve didn't know her name, then that meant if Whedon had him date her, he would have done so without knowledge of who she was related to. Which would mean Sharon would have been hiding it from him.
No. Does only Peggy's family have the surname "Carter" in this universe? Steve could have known that she is Sharon Carter, but had no clue she's related to Peggy.
And as I've said, it's already a lose-lose situation in any case. They shouldn't have made her lying to him from the very start of their meeting. That was another mistake. But at least in this case Steve would have gotten to know her as her own person before the funeral.

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The Russos have repeatedly talked up how they labored to get Spider-Man in the movie, about how they couldn't imagine it without him, about how he was always in the script.
Unfortunately, it's how the business works. I don't think we should believe everything the filmmakers or actors say. In this case I do believe they couldn't imagine the airport battle without him, since that would have meant basically rewriting it from the bones. And the airport battle is the main selling point of the movie.

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I'm talking before the movie even being known to be CW. There was A LOT of talking about how the movie should be about Black Panther. Or Captain Marvel, because, uh, Carol and Steve are both in the military.
I must have been reading all the wrong places. I wouldn't say it was the main conversation about Cap 3 in the internet. But I think it happens with all Marvel movies one way or another.

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And Whedon was who made Black Widow and Fury popular, before TWS featured them heavily.
So by that logic people should have begun to like IM2 much more after Whedon than they did before the Avengers. Which never happened.
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Many make great movies, some even greater, though without already characters, without getting the same meteoric rise in success prestige.
In the MCU? Not so many. The only ones who made good movies in Phase 2 were the Russos and Gunn.

Quote:
This thread made it to 3 parts because of constant Sharon-bashing, put-downs directed at Sharon fans, and rabid defense of the Russos at even the slightest criticism.

If people knew well enough to leave alone it would have barely made 2.
Maybe, but 2 parts are already much more than what many other characters get and would it have been the case at all if people didn't care about Sharon as Steve's LI?


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Old 03-23-2017, 08:09 AM   #763
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Rumor has ir rhat Sharon dies off screen between Civil War and Infinity War.
Where did you get it from? Is that because of what Mackie recently said?
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“If it was given to me. I feel like Chris Evans is the perfect Captain America. I can’t think of another actor who would be able to play that role as well as he does – and I love the idea of me, Chris and Sebastian and Scarlet just living forever in the Captain America franchise. It’s just fun.”
TBH, I don't think we should take his words so seriously. So far Sharon has been a minor character, that's why Mackie doesn't take her into consideration.

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Old 03-24-2017, 09:21 PM   #764
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
I'm not even joking... This thread is exhibit A of a near mania or sickness in this, the fanboy community in particular but also of the wider culture of the Internet as it's developed. Something is terribly wrong.

Take time out and explain that this is something you've chosen to devote this much time towards to someone. Explain that this is what a fraction of your limited time on Earth is going to.

Take some time off. Seriously. Choose not to post for like a three weeks straight. If you can't do that... You may have a problem.
According to posting stats BullMcGiveny comments 1.47 per day, I post 2.58 per day and you post 30.59 per day...

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Old 03-25-2017, 07:17 PM   #765
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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According to posting stats BullMcGiveny comments 1.47 per day, I post 2.58 per day and you post 30.59 per day...
Wonder if he sees the irony in his advice when he's clearly not following it.

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Old 03-26-2017, 06:17 PM   #766
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by Voltron View Post
According to posting stats BullMcGiveny comments 1.47 per day, I post 2.58 per day and you post 30.59 per day...

Who Posted?

Total Posts: 765

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BullMcGiveny 114
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You and Bull don't post much overall, but you have dominated this particular thread. It seems like the majority of your 2.58 posts per day have been devoted to this moot argument.

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Old 03-28-2017, 10:01 PM   #767
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

All the same, 30 posts a day takes much, much more of our limited time on earth to be so uppity.

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Old 04-04-2017, 10:07 AM   #768
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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this is a great article about why TWS is a good Cap's movie. While I can't say I agree with all of that, it has some spot-on points regarding this conversation.
Okay, I read the article in the link and it reads most like a criticism of MoS.

The writer also points to Steve refusing to kill Bucky as a testament to his morality which is... weird.

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If it wasn't said out loud, doesn't mean it wasn't there at all. I think it's obvious from TWS, AoU and CW, that friends and his job make Steve happy.
His friends, who are Avengers, and his job, which is being an Avenger. Which involves a lot of combat.

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Well, they've only had so much screentime in the movie. And it's still a shared universe. I don't understand why Whedon was allowed to act like previous films didn't happen. It shouldn't have been something for him to decide.
The Avengers had Steve denounce Nick Fury and by implication, SHIELD. Yet in TWS Steve has forgot all about that, so it is nothing the Russos haven't done themselves.

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Um.. No. I was just trying to explain why the Russos might have considered BW being more interesting and compelling option for their movie.
Yeah, and I was trying to explain how it didn't pan out that way.

Leaking the files cost Natasha absolutely nothing, so her action wasn't all that compelling.

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So by that logic people should have begun to like IM2 much more after Whedon than they did before the Avengers. Which never happened.
In a way, they have. Pre-The Avengers, BW was derided as one of the worst parts of the worst MCU movie, and most fans think she should have been left out.

Post-The Avengers, the criticism was that they Feige/Marvel/Favreau didn't give her enough screntime or a good enough role.

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Old 04-23-2017, 06:38 AM   #769
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Default Re: Sharon carter A.K.A. Agent 13 - Part 3

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Originally Posted by xeno000 View Post

Who Posted?

Total Posts: 765

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You and Bull don't post much overall, but you have dominated this particular thread. It seems like the majority of your 2.58 posts per day have been devoted to this moot argument.
You'll find that other users will dominate their fav characters threads too. Moot argument? That's your opinion. And for someone who seems to dislike Sharon, you keep coming back to this thread too.

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