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Old 01-10-2018, 09:12 AM   #26
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Originally Posted by Erzengel View Post
Because then why not just do everything then? If a couple is sleeping in the same bed after a sexual encounter, and one of them wakes up in the middle of the night for Round 2, and begins to initiate foreplay with their asleep partner, that's unprovoked touching without explicit consent regardless of what happened hours earlier which can be defined as sexual assault.
The sex columnist Dan Savage calls the green light to initiate activity that would be regarded as assault if attempted on anyone outside of an ongoing sexual relationship "implied consent", and varies from couple to couple or triad or quartet or whatever number accurately describes your sphere of sexual partners. No still means no but drunken sexual encounters and midnight fondling is looked much more positively in society (and I would assume in the courts as well) in the context of an ongoing sexual relationship than it would otherwise.

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Old 01-10-2018, 09:38 AM   #27
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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You posted this:



If a SO is conscious and communicative then A & C don't apply. Then B would have to be proven is if the person is or isn't incapacitated because of alcohol. Incapacitated as in lacking sufficient understanding to make rational decisions or engage in responsible actions. And I think this is what's important, and not a black and white issue, what is irrational or irresponsible with engaging in intercourse with a long standing partner?

Because then why not just do everything then? If a couple is sleeping in the same bed after a sexual encounter, and one of them wakes up in the middle of the night for Round 2, and begins to initiate foreplay with their asleep partner, that's unprovoked touching without explicit consent regardless of what happened hours earlier which can be defined as sexual assault.
Why the hell would you initiate sex with a sleeping partner? You wake them up, then you initiate sex.

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Old 01-10-2018, 09:43 AM   #28
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Why the hell would you initiate sex with a sleeping partner? You wake them up, then you initiate sex.
But how do you wake them up? I think a lot of people here can tell stories of interesting ways they were woken up that doesn't include shaking one's shoulders.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:04 AM   #29
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Nowhere did I say we should believe it, only that the reasoning to disbelieve her categorically is flawed.
Again, the context of those tweets?
I concede it's reasonable to guess this person could be ill, seems even likely.
But we do not know. Yet.



Please tell me the context. The possible context in which a person who says she was almost assaulted tweets something like this.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:07 AM   #30
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Why the hell would you initiate sex with a sleeping partner? You wake them up, then you initiate sex.
I think you have to know the pulse of your partner. Some people like those type of surprises. I woke one day to this very surprise. It was a good day.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:08 AM   #31
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

Yeah, I don't want to blame a victim if she is, in fact, that, but who exactly is Violet Paley and is there any proof she even knows James Franco?

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:15 AM   #32
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

It isn't victim blaming to question her legitmacy. It would be victim blaming to say she somehow brought on a sexual harassment/assault. In her case there is more than enough doubt from her own Twitter account to wonder whether she is being honest.

Context in this case is hard to address. If she were lying about Franco then she wouldn't admit to that and if she were being satirical or sarcastic with these tweets she would have to show how because it looks hard to see how these comments can't be taken as a way to gain attention for being controversial and trollish.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:26 AM   #33
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

Yep, agree with all of that. And if she is in fact just doing this for attention, that's an unfortunate development that's come about as part of this important movement.

I have a friend who was abducted by two men and would have been raped and killed if she hadn't managed to escape. Both of these scumbags are serving life sentences. She and I were talking about the Franco stuff and she's frankly disgusted with how people seem to be equating Franco messaging a 17-year-old or only paying an actress $100 for a nude scene with rape. And I feel that's something we need to be mindful of.

I understand that women in various industries feel preyed upon by men in power, and in the cases of people like Weinstein and Trump, there have been women who have been severely victimized in horrifying ways. And there are also women who have been touched inappropriately or pressured for sex by men in power, and those women are also victims. But in the case of the latter, while those actions are symptoms of rape culture, they're also not the same as kidnapping a woman, forcing yourself on her and bashing her head in. The women who have gone through those types of experiences shouldn't be ignored when they say, "Wait a minute... these two things are not the same."

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:31 AM   #34
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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I think you have to know the pulse of your partner. Some people like those type of surprises. I woke one day to this very surprise. It was a good day.
Yeah, it’s nearly always a nice surprise...

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:34 AM   #35
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

I am disgusted by how #MeToo tag is being used. People should stop for a second and think how it must feel for someone who has been through actual abuse, assault or rape to see the way it is used by someone who signs a contract (allegedly) and then has a problem with that. And this **** actually getting traction in the papers.

The whole thing is backfiring this week from both ends - gross petition or whatever signed by Denueve who says 'a man stealing a kiss' is nothing bad and with Franco being dragged into the mud over the flimsiest accusations we saw so far.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

A healthy dose of common sense is needed, that’s all...

A clumsy, unwanted come on is not sexual assault or rape. And trial by Twitter has got to stop...

I am all for anyone who has used their influence/power to bully others into unwanted sexual acts to be brought to justice. But surely it has to be done through the courts?

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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I am disgusted by how #MeToo tag is being used. People should stop for a second and think how it must feel for someone who has been through actual abuse, assault or rape to see the way it is used by someone who signs a contract (allegedly) and then has a problem with that. And this **** actually getting traction in the papers.

The whole thing is backfiring this week from both ends - gross petition or whatever signed by Denueve who says 'a man stealing a kiss' is nothing bad and with Franco being dragged into the mud over the flimsiest accusations we saw so far.
Totally agree with this. Well said.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:37 AM   #38
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

At the very least the media should at least fact check A LITTLE. They didn't do it all with Franco. Bringing up him flirting with some chick is not doing the fact check. They should at least check if these women even worked with Franco. One was in a relationship with him she says, some gossip rag would surely have a photo of them together. The media is just echoing twitter, that's all.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

The media is using this as free clickbait. It wouldn't be hard to make up a name and Twitter account and go accusing someone of sexual assault and the media would jump on it as if it were true. Which is why people like Violet Paley should be fact checked more thoroughly than "she said it on Twitter, it must be true" as we're seeing now. There are more than enough reputable women coming forward with believable claims more than Franco coming off creepy.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:55 AM   #40
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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The media is using this as free clickbait. It wouldn't be hard to make up a name and Twitter account and go accusing someone of sexual assault and the media would jump on it as if it were true. Which is why people like Violet Paley should be fact checked more thoroughly than "she said it on Twitter, it must be true" as we're seeing now. There are more than enough reputable women coming forward with believable claims more than Franco coming off creepy.
Oh he is creepy for sure, any guy in his late 30s who is into 17 year old girls is. But this is the first time I see him being accused of doing something without consent.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

And Franco's answer last night seems to imply that something creepy or inappropriate happened in the past, even if this specific instance wasn't correct.

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Old 01-10-2018, 10:59 AM   #42
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Please tell me the context. The possible context in which a person who says she was almost assaulted tweets something like this.
Different people have different reactions.
Again, I am not saying it's true, not even that doubting it is wrong.
But we have no proof either way, these tweets prove nothing.

I'm not for believing any accusation no question asked, but for making the right questions at the proper time.
This person, even if lying, should she be assaulted in the future, how could she come forward with your line of thinking?
Every instance and accusation is to be taken by itself, otherwise we leave the most exposed individuals worse off than before all this newfound consciousness.

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Old 01-10-2018, 11:41 AM   #43
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

The best analogy is the boy who cried wolf. She may be telling the truth, she might be lying but so far there is no evidence of her being truthful. Random claims on the internet should not be taken as seriously as someone who has credible evidence something happened.

The problem with if she were actually assaulted in the future and no one believed her is just as important as finding out if it were true or just another ploy to gain attention.

There is no simple answer. That is exactly why these situations are not cut and dry but when given a set of facts: she makes claims about Franco, she also makes comments outright saying she enjoys ruining people's lives, you can't take her word just at that.

Are we just to believe anyone who says something, regardless of what they have said in the past that might directly contradict it? Should we believe Donald Trump didn't ***** grab because he later said it was locker room talk? Do you think he didn't sexually assault or harass women merely because he denied it?

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Old 01-10-2018, 12:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

Harvey Weinstein attacked at Arizona restaurant - https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/cel...cid=spartanntp

It doesn't directly link the attack to all the recent accusations against him, but it does sound like the attacker may have thought nothing would be done to him because of the hate for Weinstein at this time.

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Old 01-10-2018, 12:57 PM   #45
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Originally Posted by Erzengel View Post
You posted this:



If a SO is conscious and communicative then A & C don't apply. Then B would have to be proven is if the person is or isn't incapacitated because of alcohol. Incapacitated as in lacking sufficient understanding to make rational decisions or engage in responsible actions. And I think this is what's important, and not a black and white issue, what is irrational or irresponsible with engaging in intercourse with a long standing partner?

Because then why not just do everything then? If a couple is sleeping in the same bed after a sexual encounter, and one of them wakes up in the middle of the night for Round 2, and begins to initiate foreplay with their asleep partner, that's unprovoked touching without explicit consent regardless of what happened hours earlier which can be defined as sexual assault.
Read the rest of the post, and the other part I quoted. I specifically point out it goes to the affirmative consent. Which is continuous.

The bold part is... creepy.

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Old 01-10-2018, 01:00 PM   #46
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Originally Posted by RetrogradeOrbit View Post
A healthy dose of common sense is needed, that’s all...

A clumsy, unwanted come on is not sexual assault or rape. And trial by Twitter has got to stop...

I am all for anyone who has used their influence/power to bully others into unwanted sexual acts to be brought to justice. But surely it has to be done through the courts?
It can be sexual harassment, especially if you are a superior.

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I am disgusted by how #MeToo tag is being used. People should stop for a second and think how it must feel for someone who has been through actual abuse, assault or rape to see the way it is used by someone who signs a contract (allegedly) and then has a problem with that. And this **** actually getting traction in the papers.

The whole thing is backfiring this week from both ends - gross petition or whatever signed by Denueve who says 'a man stealing a kiss' is nothing bad and with Franco being dragged into the mud over the flimsiest accusations we saw so far.
Franco's accusations go back a bit. Apparently his "acting schools" are a large source of this.

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Old 01-10-2018, 01:07 PM   #47
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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Read the rest of the post, and the other part I quoted. I specifically point out it goes to the affirmative consent. Which is continuous.
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(1) An affirmative consent standard in the determination of whether consent was given by both parties to sexual activity. “Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. It is the responsibility of each person involved in the sexual activity to ensure that he or she has the affirmative consent of the other or others to engage in the sexual activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent. Affirmative consent must be ongoing throughout a sexual activity and can be revoked at any time. The existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved, or the fact of past sexual relations between them, should never by itself be assumed to be an indicator of consent.
And I think enough people here have given the scenario where the person in question is fully participating and not just laying there and quiet.

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The bold part is... creepy.
I'll go even further and I'm sure others here can attest to, of being asleep and having a sig other, come home slip into bed with you, looking for intimacy. I don't see how that's creepy personally, but I guess we all have our different experiences.

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Old 01-10-2018, 01:16 PM   #48
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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And I think enough people here have given the scenario where the person in question is fully participating and not just laying there and quiet.
What qualifies as "fully participating" and can consent be given in such a case where someone is legally drunk? That is the question.

Like, here is a question of "fully participating" idea. The Morgan Spurlock situation. Does this qualify?

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/se...onduct-n829581

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I'll go even further and I'm sure others here can attest to, of being asleep and having a sig other, come home slip into bed with you, looking for intimacy. I don't see how that's creepy personally, but I guess we all have our different experiences.
I am on the wake people up side of these things. And by wake up, I mean you know, saying their name, shaking them awake.

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Old 01-10-2018, 01:20 PM   #49
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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What qualifies as "fully participating" and can consent be given in such a case where someone is legally drunk? That is the question.

Like, here is a question of "fully participating" idea. The Morgan Spurlock situation. Does this qualify?

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/se...onduct-n829581
So the one night sexual relationship or inappropriate comments to a subordinate is equatable to our examples of ones in relationships?

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I am on the wake people up side of these things. And by wake up, I mean you know, saying their name, shaking them awake.
Doesn't bother me personally either way.

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Old 01-10-2018, 01:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: Decades of Sexual Harassment Accusations Against Harvey Weinstein - Part 3

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So the one night sexual relationship or inappropriate comments to a subordinate is equatable to our examples of ones in relationships?
I don't think the law looks at one night stands differently then relationships. I think that law specifically says that.

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Doesn't bother me personally either way.
Okay then.

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